Senorpopps Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Every country earns a spot to qualify to the CCL (either directly or through the CL) so earning means we have a country that exists within CONCACAFs jurisdiction - MLS has no part in this. Cheeta and gator 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, ted said: Earned?!?! WTF are you talking about? As someone else mentioned, you do realize it is national associations that decide who gets the spots right? There is ZERO chance that the CSA adds a runner up in he VCup before a CanPL Champion. He was responding to @Ansem , who said this: There's no doubt that Canada deserves it due to our strong performance thus far. The above was in regards to Canada getting a second spot in the competition, either in the CCL proper or (more likely) the Concacaf League. The strong performances by Canada in CCL thus far have come from the MLS clubs (and once via Montreal's MLS precursor), so @matty is arguing that the MLS teams have a legitimate claim to challenge for any additional spots Canada receives because they were the ones who performed well enough to justify them. It's not an invalid argument, IMO. The CSA has designated the MLS teams as D1 clubs, equal to CanPL. I'm of the opinion that all D1 teams should be treated equally. Edited February 11, 2019 by RS johnyb and matty 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, ted said: Earned?!?! WTF are you talking about? As someone else mentioned, you do realize it is national associations that decide who gets the spots right? There is ZERO chance that the CSA adds a runner up in he VCup before a CanPL Champion. did you not read what i was quoting and note the parts highlighted? As @RS said, if Canada (aka the CSA) has earned (as Ansem suggested, along with many others when they talk about how if it was based on a coefficient) another spot in the competition thanks to historic strong performances it's because of the MLS teams. Also there is a chance if the MLS teams really want what is offered they will try to get it. It would be foolish to think there is ZERO chance. Also @longlugan what's confusing about what I said? Edited February 11, 2019 by matty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlugan Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, matty said: did you not read what i was quoting and note the parts highlighted? As @RS said, if Canada (aka the CSA) has earned (as Ansem suggested, along with many others when they talk about how if it was based on a coefficient) another spot in the competition thanks to historic strong performances it's because of the MLS teams. Also there is a chance if the MLS teams really want what is offered they will try to get it. It would be foolish to think there is ZERO chance. Also @longlugan what's confusing about what I said? To be honest most of your babbling is confusing but that's probably just me...babble on. matty, Lofty, deschamp86 and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 minute ago, longlugan said: To be honest most of your babbling is confusing but that's probably just me...babble on. LOL somebody just wants likes. But seriously what's confusing about there being 2 valid arguments about how a new spot should be awarded? One that honours past performance and another that will boost a league's credibility. Just tell me I'm curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2SKI Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Didn’t Schaad say that CPL was going to be awarded a spot, and not just a second for Canadian teams? That doesn’t leave much doubt for how the position will be won, or suggest that past performances had any roll in the decision ted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, C2SKI said: Didn’t Schaad say that CPL was going to be awarded a spot, and not just a second for Canadian teams? That doesn’t leave much doubt for how the position will be won, or suggest that past performances had any roll in the decision No he said there was speculation about it. Could be serious talk, could just be fan chatter on here or twitter (cause it's happening along side a lot of talk here lately). No idea really. His follow up point is interesting Edited February 11, 2019 by matty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, matty said: LOL somebody just wants likes. But seriously what's confusing about there being 2 valid arguments about how a new spot should be awarded? One that honours past performance and another that will boost a league's credibility. Just tell me I'm curious Three arguments: A place in CCL goes to the winner of each country's domestic league because when you win the league you have earned it. And everyone has the opportunity to play in the league if they want that CCL place. (i.e. Nothing to do with trying to bestow credibility on the league -- as if a CCL place would suddenly bestow credibility on a league that otherwise would not have it.) toontownman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, dsqpr said: Three arguments: A place in CCL goes to the winner of each country's domestic league because when you win the league you have earned it. And everyone has the opportunity to play in the league if they want that CCL place. (i.e. Nothing to do with trying to bestow credibility on the league -- as if a CCL place would suddenly bestow credibility on a league that otherwise would not have it.) You know a spot would bring the league a degree of credibility otherwise we wouldn't want it to have one. I get you point here and it's fine in theory but not every league in the region gets to send its winner to CCL automatically because of the CONCACAF set up. If CONCACAF didn't have a dumb system I would get behind your point. The CPL should get the spot because, yes, it is fair and will boost the league but there is a case one could make for the VCup/MLS teams. Edited February 11, 2019 by matty toontownman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlugan Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 35 minutes ago, matty said: LOL somebody just wants likes. But seriously what's confusing about there being 2 valid arguments about how a new spot should be awarded? One that honours past performance and another that will boost a league's credibility. Just tell me I'm curious Lol actually if you noticed when I joined you'd see that I post very little...considering how long I've been here...so it's obvious that I don't care about likes. You have a point in one sense but at the same time Montreal was the first Canadian team to be successful in the Champions League...before they joined the MLS so I don't think we owe them jack shit. matty and Shway 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, matty said: You know a spot would bring the league a degree of credibility otherwise we wouldn't want it to have one. I get you point here and it's fine in theory but not every league in the region gets to send its winner to CCL automatically because of the CONCACAF set up. If CONCACAF didn't have a dumb system I would get behind your point. CPL credibility has no bearing whatsoever on my position that the CCL place should go to CPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 41 minutes ago, matty said: LOL somebody just wants likes. But seriously what's confusing about there being 2 valid arguments about how a new spot should be awarded? One that honours past performance and another that will boost a league's credibility. Just tell me I'm curious When intelligent argument fails, resort to ad hominem attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, longlugan said: Lol actually if you noticed when I joined you'd see that I post very little...considering how long I've been here...so it's obvious that I don't care about likes. You have a point in one sense but at the same time Montreal was the first Canadian team to be successful in the Champions League...before they joined the MLS so I don't think we owe them jack shit. I did but figured "hey everyone likes to feel liked sometimes". Now your last point is very true but we've been to 2 finals and a semi-final under MLS teams in more recent years so the case for that position is still strong. It's fine if you think they're not owed shit but there are likely people in key places that might disagree and would stand up if the spot became available. 5 minutes ago, dsqpr said: CPL credibility has no bearing whatsoever on my position that the CCL place should go to CPL. So you just want it? Is there any other reason? You agree there is weight to it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) ... I see trolling is that you Tg13 In the current state, i think everyone can understand why the Voyaguers Cup winner would currently be awared a CONCACAF Champions League (CCL) spot. Simply because the CPL hasnt kicked a ball yet. But I think lots of logical thinking needs to be done if it continues to be so, even past a few seasons of the CPLs existence. The reality is the CSAs D1 governed sanctioned league will always play 3x as much games as the VC that they administer. So which champion is deemed greater? One would assume the league champs, as it would help achieve the CSAs plan of exposing & developing Canadians on the CONCACAF stage. Another thing, take a look at the CCL now. The qualified teams are only league champions or league runners up of their respective leagues (or CONCACAF League champions) .... only in the USA is the cup champion (which I even think should be given to SS champ/r-u and MLS Cup champ/r-u) awarded a CCL spot. I think that the Canadian MLS teams being connected to that makes it weird for them in cases like Toronto FC in 2017. But isnt the CanadianToo movement about trying to distant ourselves from being dependent on the USSF? That's why I can see the CSA making the MLS teams have to qualify to the CCL through winning the CL via the VC Champs. Now thats if the CSA is awarded 1+1...significant changes to the tournament would have to be made if they are awarded two automatic CCL berths. Yes it would be ideal/beneficial for both CPL and MLS teams. But again, where would the logic be in that when some federations with proven history are only awarded 1 CCL berth - See Costa Rica. Very loaded, but prove me wrong. Edited February 11, 2019 by Jahinho Guerro Unnamed Trialist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 It is fascinating that the Voyageurs board is almost unanimously dedicated to demeaning the cup that we donated and bears our name, but that is the short term "Dory from Nemo" sort of memory many have come to expect these days. I will never speak out against the V-Cup being given a primary spot for Canadian rep, since now and for the future, perhaps always, it represents Canadian soccer across leagues. I find this year's format frankly insulting, however, with arbitrary seedings, without a draw, and TFC being babied with potentially only 4 games to repeat, just because they are holders. No Cup in the world favours a holder so blatantly. THAT is also denigrating to the Cup's integrity. After a year's play, or well into it, we'll be in a situation to request to Concacaf a 2nd spot, based on previous results, which we give to our national champion. That way, potentially, both spots can go to CPL teams, and MLS teams can only, ever, get one. Doesn't Concacaf have a working set of coefficients based on club competitions in the region, so we can really know who deserves to be getting byes, spots, etc? Or is it just decided by eye-balling relative league size and club power? Because it is true, if they had a coefficient system, that we'd be at least third over the last 5 years, even with one sole rep. zen, RS, Ruffian and 10 others 9 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deschamp86 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 I think that the Voyageur's Cup should still hold onto the primary spot, with the CPL being given a spot in CCONCACAF League. I think that if a second spot was awarded to the Voyageur's Cup competition, it would demean the Cup itself, as their would be less incentive to win the final Kent, Unnamed Trialist, MtlMario and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sébastien Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 The Voyageurs Cup includes every professional Canadian club in the country (and some semi-pro clubs). It has a history spanning 15+ years. In Canadian soccer terms, that's enormous. On top of it all, the cup was funded by, and donated by, the most committed of Canadian soccer supporters, back in the days of few of them existing, and the CMNT playing its home matches in Kingston. If Canada gets two spots of different value towards the CCL, the winner of the Cup should get the most valuable one. If we want CPL teams to get an automatic-entry into the CCL, there's an avenue for them to do so: win the Cup. Be proud of doing so. Get your fans on board. I don't understand people who want to diminish the value of (what I judge to be) one of the biggest contribution of Canadian soccer supporters. We get it. Your pro-CPL extends to diminishing anything else happening in the Canadian soccer universe. You don't need to be a reverse BringBackTheBlizzard because of it. Senorpopps and zen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Sébastien said: The Voyageurs Cup includes every professional Canadian club in the country (and some semi-pro clubs). It has a history spanning 15+ years. In Canadian soccer terms, that's enormous. On top of it all, the cup was funded by, and donated by, the most committed of Canadian soccer supporters, back in the days of few of them existing, and the CMNT playing its home matches in Kingston. If Canada gets two spots of different value towards the CCL, the winner of the Cup should get the most valuable one. If we want CPL teams to get an automatic-entry into the CCL, there's an avenue for them to do so: win the Cup. Be proud of doing so. Get your fans on board. I don't understand people who want to diminish the value of (what I judge to be) one of the biggest contribution of Canadian soccer supporters. We get it. Your pro-CPL extends to diminishing anything else happening in the Canadian soccer universe. You don't need to be a reverse BringBackTheBlizzard because of it. Most people are arguing that we should get 2 CCL spots, 1 for the Canadian Cup and the other for the CPL Champions. We should all rally behind that and push together towards that goal. It get frankly freaking ridiculous when people argue that we either shouldn't get 2 CCL or that both should go towards the V Cup, because CPL hasn't "earned" it. Most are saying Can we not be the exception and do like most leagues out there...send our league champions to CCL??? That's all. We, as a group should agree on 2 CCL and collectively push for that, not debating hypothetical scenarios just because someone's bored and needs some self-amusement and posts stuff just to divides us into a MLS vs CPL war which is POINTLESS. It's doable to celebrate what MLS teams has achieved AND recognizing that our D1 champions should be there. Let's just as one voice push for 2 CCL, one for each. Personally, any extra like additional CCL or CL spots should go to CPL, because that's the norm, not because of a CPL biais Edited February 11, 2019 by Ansem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 9 hours ago, longlugan said: Lol actually if you noticed when I joined you'd see that I post very little...considering how long I've been here...so it's obvious that I don't care about likes. You have a point in one sense but at the same time Montreal was the first Canadian team to be successful in the Champions League...before they joined the MLS so I don't think we owe them jack shit. Don’t sweat it, @matty likes to throw out questionable accusations if he doesn’t like your point. I agree with @Unnamed Trialist .. the Voyageurs Cup always needs to be #1 so long as we have MLS v CPL. It’s the best domestic cup in Concacaf and will only get better in the years to come. If you take a CCL berth away then it’s no longer a priority to teams. I think it would actually be much better for CPL as a whole if we went for two CONCACAF league spots over one CCL spot. That way we have more teams and more matches against teams we can compete with.. and hey if we win it’s a spot in the CCL. Ivan and Sébastien 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 2 hours ago, deschamp86 said: I think that the Voyageur's Cup should still hold onto the primary spot, with the CPL being given a spot in CCONCACAF League. I think that if a second spot was awarded to the Voyageur's Cup competition, it would demean the Cup itself, as their would be less incentive to win the final Exactly.. that final should be win at all costs. No second chances or consolation prizes. The Voyageurs Cup should be put on a pedestal at all times because it’s the furthest stretching competition in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpg_29 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Personally I'd like to see CPL get a CCL spot for the league winner and CL spot for the league runner up along with the existing CCL spot for the Voyageurs Cup winner. It's not like CONCACAF is flush with countries and leagues anyway. So I don't see why giving these spots should be a huge issue. Ansem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigers Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Motion to have a separate Concacaf spot discussion thread? I keep thinking there will be news in here, but no... Ansem and Sébastien 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sébastien Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) *Deleted* Just because I'm in a bad mood, doesn't mean I should snap at posters here. I've said my piece on the matter, and support @Tigers motion. Edited February 11, 2019 by Sébastien grande 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Keegan said: Don’t sweat it, @matty likes to throw out questionable accusations if he doesn’t like your point. I agree with @Unnamed Trialist .. the Voyageurs Cup always needs to be #1 so long as we have MLS v CPL. It’s the best domestic cup in Concacaf and will only get better in the years to come. If you take a CCL berth away then it’s no longer a priority to teams. I think it would actually be much better for CPL as a whole if we went for two CONCACAF league spots over one CCL spot. That way we have more teams and more matches against teams we can compete with.. and hey if we win it’s a spot in the CCL. what was a questionable accusation about a joke that someone wants to win the day or get likes? he legit said something funny, i laughed and nodded yea i'm annoying as shit and was like he's gonna get lots of like for that Edited February 11, 2019 by matty longlugan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlugan Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, matty said: what was a questionable accusation about a joke that someone wants to win the day or get likes? he legit said something funny, i laughed and nodded yea i'm annoying as shit and was like he's gonna get lots of like for that No worries Matty...I wasn't offended in the least bit...much more serious issues in this world to take umbrage with. matty and Senorpopps 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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