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11 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Call it what you want but the fact is the NZ Prem regularly has a team compete in the Club World Cup, regularly has NZ Call ups and moves players to higher leagues.

In the 2014 CWC Auckland City beat both the host morroccan team and the CAF Champions League winner.  Then they narrowly lost to The Libertadores champions San Lorenzo 2-1 in extra time and then beat CONCACAF Champions League winner Cruz Azul on penalties for 3rd place. 

I’d say the league is probably similar to lower USL level (although there isn’t a chance a USL team could replicate that - even a MLS team has never done that) and CPL just signed one of its best players.  In other words,  a guy who if he was a Kiwi would probably get a call up to their national squad.

These are the smart signings you need to make.  Go after big fish in small ponds on the cheap. 

As a Canadian who played in the NZPL league last season I can back up your comments! The level and professional environment is a good standard. The league just doesn’t have the fan base due to rugby and small population. Maksym Kowal a Canadian striker also plays at Canterbury United he has 1 goal in 7. & Patryk Misik who played for our U23 national team can’t get into his teams match day squad. Young kiwis are constantly leaving the league to play in better pro environments and teams like Auckland City and Team Wellington regularly have player turning down the Wellington Phoenix due to the $$ their players earn and lure of the club World Cup. I’m hoping my time in NZ will help me gain a CPL contract. I believe the CPL level will be a little lower than NZPL the first year.

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17 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Call it what you want but the fact is the NZ Prem regularly has a team compete in the Club World Cup, regularly has NZ Call ups and moves players to higher leagues...

Think you are making a bit too much out of the ability of New Zealand to provide a club champion for Oceania and may be unaware of just how dominant rugby is in that country. Have never seen the guy play so will reserve judgement but the fact he played briefly for Selkirk in a Scottish context and then went back to New Zealand is a bit of a red flag for me because I know some of the background to what happened at that club in recent years and it's not good.

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Kowal was a 4th tier backup in poland before going to new zealand where he was a starter in his first season and scored 6 in 18..Misik was a backup anywhere he went whether it was d3 poland or nasl

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So much obsessing over money and level of play. Both will improve if the league is supported, and both will cease to exist if we all scoff at it. Move on

This guy has a good scoring record over the past few seasons. He's in his prime, and he'll have to be watched when he comes to Victoria. I predict Jackson Farmer and Callum Montgomery will have him in their pockets for 90 minutes.

Edited by C2SKI

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1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Think you are making a bit too much out of the ability of New Zealand to provide a club champion for Oceania and may be unaware of just how dominant rugby is in that country. Have never seen the guy play so will reserve judgement but the fact he played briefly for Selkirk in a Scottish context and then went back to New Zealand is a bit of a red flag for me because I know some of the background to what happened at that club in recent years and it's not good.

I’ve travelled the country and am very familiar with how massive Rugby is there.  I also know that NZ clubs have a cake walk to the CWC, same as their MNT does to the Confed Cup... BUT that doesn’t take away from their club results at the tournament.  Atlanta United is clearly a lot more talented would be hard pressed to replicate those 2014 results.  And again, we aren’t talking about an entire team but a top player in the league... surely teams that can compete on the world stage have at least a few players to offer to higher levels (and they have - even MLS sides have signed players from the NZ Prem). 

Look, I’m not saying the guy is going to light it up or is a huge coup - it’s probably better for the league that he isn’t.  I just think it’s short sighted to write a player off from the NZ Prem when clearly there is some talent there.

Edited by Keegan

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30 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

So much obsessing over money and level of play. Both will improve if the league is supported, and both will cease to exist if we all scoff at it. Move on

This guy has a good scoring record over the past few seasons. He's in his prime, and he'll have to be watched when he comes to Victoria. I predict Jackson Farmer will have him in his pocket for 90 minutes.

I agree, but I do think it is a very different way the international spots are being used than I expected.

I thought it would make most sense to leverage the international spots to grab your key players to avoid running into issues with Canada's player pool.

Instead we seem to be seeing, from a sample size of 2 at least, attempts to sign internationals who are playing at a low level but are overperforming (Simon Adjei scoring more than a goal per game in the Swedish 4th tier, Hoyle scoring 31 goals in 50 games in semi-pro NZ). I'm guessing it is because it's hard to attract internationals to a brand new league. 

In my mind, I was expecting most of the "take a flyer" signings were going to be Canadians, not internationals

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5 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I’ve travelled the country and am very familiar with how massive Rugby is there.  I also know that NZ clubs have a cake walk to the CWC, same as their MNT does to the Confed Cup... BUT that doesn’t take away from their club results at the tournament.  Atlanta United is clearly a lot more talented would be hard pressed to replicate those 2014 results.  And again, we aren’t talking about an entire team but a top player in the league... surely teams that can compete on the world stage have at least a few players to offer to higher levels (and they have - even MLS sides have signed players from the NZ Prem). 

...where have I suggested that they don't? What you initially responded to was a message in which I pointed out that CanPL as an apparent fully pro league (if even the lower end rumours about salary cap are to be believed) should be viewed as a step up from being in a short season semi pro setup.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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5 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I’ve travelled the country and am very familiar with how massive Rugby is there.  I also know that NZ clubs have a cake walk to the CWC, same as their MNT does to the Confed Cup... BUT that doesn’t take away from their club results at the tournament.  Atlanta United is clearly a lot more talented would be hard pressed to replicate those 2014 results.  And again, we aren’t talking about an entire team but a top player in the league... surely teams that can compete on the world stage have at least a few players to offer to higher levels (and they have - even MLS sides have signed players from the NZ Prem). 

Look, I’m not saying the guy is going to light it up or is a huge coup - it’s probably better for the league that he isn’t.  I just think it’s short sighted to write a player off from the NZ Prem when clearly there is some talent there.

Currently 9 New Zealander’s in the MLS

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12 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...where have I suggested that they don't? What you initially responded to was a message in which I pointed out that CanPL as an apparent fully pro league (if even the lower end rumours about salary cap are to be believed) should be viewed as a step up from being in a short season semi pro setup.

Well you’re talking about Rugby and how easy it is qualify for the CWC from Oceania.. I agree with both but then I guess I don’t understand how your point relates at all to this conversation.  You also said the fact he went back to NZ is a red flag for you, which I also took to mean you have doubts about the level and talents coming out of there.  

I agree with you that CPL should be a step up for sure. 

Edited by Keegan

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Selkirk were a small tier five regional club from a rugby obsessed town (ironically enough) of 5000 or so people that attempted to go full-time a few years back. That turned into a complete fiasco and they eventually went bankrupt a few games into this season when the sugar daddy investor that was pumping money in to fund that kind of stuff along with the stadium improvements needed to be allowed to play at that sort of level stopped doing so and they couldn't persuade enough local people to play for them to be able to field a team. The reason it's a bit of a red flag is that if he has a British passport and has any level of talent in terms of full-time professional soccer, why wasn't he able to catch on somewhere else? There may be a reasonable enough explanation for what unfolded but I'd want to know why and see him in some sort of tryout before handing him a multi-year contract, which may well have happened obviously.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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26 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I agree, but I do think it is a very different way the international spots are being used than I expected.

I thought it would make most sense to leverage the international spots to grab your key players to avoid running into issues with Canada's player pool.

Instead we seem to be seeing, from a sample size of 2 at least, attempts to sign internationals who are playing at a low level but are overperforming (Simon Adjei scoring more than a goal per game in the Swedish 4th tier, Hoyle scoring 31 goals in 50 games in semi-pro NZ). I'm guessing it is because it's hard to attract internationals to a brand new league. 

In my mind, I was expecting most of the "take a flyer" signings were going to be Canadians, not internationals

What sort of player were you expecting to see? Both these guys must be fairly well known commodities. They've both played in Canada, they're both in their prime, and they've both been scoring regularly for a few years. I feel like we're putting too much stock in what league these guys found success in. Assess the player and the players ability; not just the reputation of the league.

I've always felt that the Whitecaps typical signings over the last few seasons were generally "flyers". Young South Americans with spotty success at subpar South American/Central American sides. Some worked, many didn't. My point being that Vancouver can't even attract the top players from those leagues. They've had to hope for success with unproven players. It seems safer to sign proven players from lower leagues that unproven players from stronger leagues.

 

Edited by C2SKI

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5 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Selkirk were a small tier five regional club from a rugby obsessed town (ironically enough) of 5000 or so people that attempted to go full-time a few years back. That turned into a complete fiasco and they eventually went bankrupt a few games into this season when the sugar daddy investor that was pumping money in to fund that kind of stuff along with the stadium improvements needed to be allowed to play at that sort of level stopped doing so and they couldn't persuade enough local people to play for them to be able to field a team. The reason it's a bit of a red flag is that if he has a British passport and has any level of talent in terms of full-time professional soccer, why wasn't he able to catch on somewhere else? There may be a reasonable enough explanation for what unfolded but I'd want to know why and see him some sort of tryout before handing him a multi-year contract, which may well have happened obviously.

Perhaps he's improved over the last 7 years

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23 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

What sort of player were you expecting to see? 

Mostly older veteran players looking for a last contract before moving into coaching. I had suspected that the Canadian content was going to skew young (simply because of the realities of our player pool, if you're not moving past USLish level you're usually retiring young because the low cashflow is unsustainable) and bringing in some guys with solid resumes but well past their prime seemed to be a reasonable way to establish a professional culture among the younger domestic player while being a bit more marketable 

We still may see some of these sort of signing. If Rollins is on point a guy like O'Dea fits that bill nicely (You can legitimately market "Former Celtic player and TFC Captain, and use him to shape the dressing room). With an N of 2 I shouldn't be extrapolating too much

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1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Selkirk were a small tier five regional club from a rugby obsessed town (ironically enough) of 5000 or so people that attempted to go full-time a few years back. That turned into a complete fiasco and they eventually went bankrupt a few games into this season when the sugar daddy investor that was pumping money in to fund that kind of stuff along with the stadium improvements needed to be allowed to play at that sort of level stopped doing so and they couldn't persuade enough local people to play for them to be able to field a team. The reason it's a bit of a red flag is that if he has a British passport and has any level of talent in terms of full-time professional soccer, why wasn't he able to catch on somewhere else? There may be a reasonable enough explanation for what unfolded but I'd want to know why and see him in some sort of tryout before handing him a multi-year contract, which may well have happened obviously.

I messaged him to say congrats on the move and hopefully he can help me secure a roster spot! I asked about Selkirk he played 2 games up there on a one month loan deal because of connections with Doncaster Rovers.

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@Keegan, I know we had an argument before, and in the end I suggested it was probably just due to a misunderstanding. But, it is difficult to not find faults in your arguments when you use arguments like this.

In an earlier post you said, "Call it what you want but the fact is the NZ Prem regularly has a team compete in the Club World Cup..." later acknowledging that the "NZ clubs have a cake walk to the CWC." If you acknowledge how easy it is for them to make it to CWC, why use it as evidence when it is open to attack?

Then later:

4 hours ago, Keegan said:

I also know that NZ clubs have a cake walk to the CWC, same as their MNT does to the Confed Cup... BUT that doesn’t take away from their club results at the tournament.  Atlanta United is clearly a lot more talented would be hard pressed to replicate those 2014 results.

Your argument is that the level of the NZPL is good. You support your argument with the secondary argument that their results in CWC are good, using 2014 as your evidence. You can not use one year as evidence that the quality of the league overall is decent. You have to show that they can at least consistently compete for you to be able to argue "that doesn’t take away from their club results at the tournament." In fact since the inception of the Club World Cup they have only gotten past the initial round twice, 2014 being their best performance.

In the 2014 CWC Auckland City beat both the host Morroccan team and the CAF Champions League winner.  Then they narrowly lost to The Libertadores champions San Lorenzo 2-1 in extra time and then beat CONCACAF Champions League winner Cruz Azul on penalties for 3rd place. 

Even this alone is not sufficient to prove that they had a good tournament, after all it doesn't take a lot of quality to put 10 men behind the ball and be opportunistic. Use better evidence to support your arguments, it doesn't take much to look up the match reports and cite shots on target and/or possession as evidence - which actually prove that 2014 was actually a decent performance, the previous time they got past the initial round, not so much.

Regardless, the quality of the league cannot be extrapolated from their performance during one edition of the tournament.

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2 hours ago, zen said:

@Keegan, I know we had an argument before, and in the end I suggested it was probably just due to a misunderstanding. But, it is difficult to not find faults in your arguments when you use arguments like this.

In an earlier post you said, "Call it what you want but the fact is the NZ Prem regularly has a team compete in the Club World Cup..." later acknowledging that the "NZ clubs have a cake walk to the CWC." If you acknowledge how easy it is for them to make it to CWC, why use it as evidence when it is open to attack?

Then later:

Your argument is that the level of the NZPL is good. You support your argument with the secondary argument that their results in CWC are good, using 2014 as your evidence. You can not use one year as evidence that the quality of the league overall is decent. You have to show that they can at least consistently compete for you to be able to argue "that doesn’t take away from their club results at the tournament." In fact since the inception of the Club World Cup they have only gotten past the initial round twice, 2014 being their best performance.

In the 2014 CWC Auckland City beat both the host Morroccan team and the CAF Champions League winner.  Then they narrowly lost to The Libertadores champions San Lorenzo 2-1 in extra time and then beat CONCACAF Champions League winner Cruz Azul on penalties for 3rd place. 

Even this alone is not sufficient to prove that they had a good tournament, after all it doesn't take a lot of quality to put 10 men behind the ball and be opportunistic. Use better evidence to support your arguments, it doesn't take much to look up the match reports and cite shots on target and/or possession as evidence - which actually prove that 2014 was actually a decent performance, the previous time they got past the initial round, not so much.

Regardless, the quality of the league cannot be extrapolated from their performance during one edition of the tournament.

I'm sorry but you are misunderstanding me once again.  I've never been arguing that the level is "good", I'm saying that it isn't simply a level that you can write off as semi-pro and call it a day.  In fact, I said it was perhaps closer to lower USL level i.e. TFC II level and have never called it good - wafflecone90 did maybe you're confused.

There is no flaw in my logic to say that the teams have competed in the tournament while also saying that it's a cake walk to qualify?   Of course you can't use one year to show results but the fact is they have only lost by more than 1 goal twice in the past 7 years in all their matches in the CWC as far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong please).  Does that mean the league is "good"? No, and I never said that but it shows that the champions competed obviously and can't be simply written off, players move on from the league and players get called to the NZ national team.  So they may be on to something here.. 

 

Edited by Keegan

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9 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Mostly older veteran players looking for a last contract before moving into coaching. I had suspected that the Canadian content was going to skew young (simply because of the realities of our player pool, if you're not moving past USLish level you're usually retiring young because the low cashflow is unsustainable) and bringing in some guys with solid resumes but well past their prime seemed to be a reasonable way to establish a professional culture among the younger domestic player while being a bit more marketable 

We still may see some of these sort of signing. If Rollins is on point a guy like O'Dea fits that bill nicely (You can legitimately market "Former Celtic player and TFC Captain, and use him to shape the dressing room). With an N of 2 I shouldn't be extrapolating too much

That's interesting.  I'd always assumed they'd be targeting younger, up and coming players from poorer Central American/Caribbean countries with the thought of developing them (like the younger Canadian players) to sell them on to bigger clubs later on.  That these types of players might be more willing to take a lower salary just to get in to a more professional environment.  But reading your post, I can certainly see them targeting older, veteran players on their last contract with the idea being more "come to Canada and play, but also get your foot in the door in to Canada to help set you and your family up for the next stage of your life". 

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19 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

That's interesting.  I'd always assumed they'd be targeting younger, up and coming players from poorer Central American/Caribbean countries with the thought of developing them (like the younger Canadian players) to sell them on to bigger clubs later on.  That these types of players might be more willing to take a lower salary just to get in to a more professional environment.  

I sort of saw this as the next logical step after a few years. But then again, managers' jobs are to win next season, so I can't really expect any kind of clean progression like that

Though it's arguable that, when you're throwing together a group of players with no prior chemistry or experience together, veterans who have been in a number of different pro setups might still be the key to short term success

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I think all this speculation about what type of internationals will be signed is a product of being trained by MLS to think of each roster spot as having specific rules that a player must match this, this, this, and this in order to be signed. I think the international spots will be used by CPL teams to sign international players, and that their age, experience, position on the field, leadership qualities, etc, will vary from player to player.

Edited by Kent
Sometimes my iPad gives me a number when I want a letter.

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7 hours ago, Ansem said:

Not trying to be a troublemaker...

oh what the hell...

 

 

Yeah, then Al Ain came back in the 2nd half and tied it, it was goal-less in  extra time and they went on to win 4-3 in penalties.

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Whoa.

While one part of me finds this hilarious, the other part of me is worried the Fury might fold over this. People rich enough to own sports teams don't like to be dictated to, the only way Goudie was going to switch was on his own terms

Whatever you think about the Fury for skipping out on CPL, they would be a loss to Canadian soccer

Edited by Complete Homer

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