CPL General

[Ansem]

Do we have a cure for inferiority complex syndrome??

Edited July 2, 2018 by Ansem

[Shortdutchcanuck]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Do we have a cure for inferiority complex syndrome?

Same cure as for wildly optimistic syndrome : carry on, support the league, keep an open mind.  Being right matters much less than the ultimate success of the league.

Even a USL level league would be a massive improvement for soccer in Canada, but if it is somewhere between USL and MLS so much the better.  

There isn't a lot of tangible evidence one way or the other so far.  We are just having fun making predictions.  We do have some advantages for signing players but so does USL, potentially being seen as a more direct route to MLS.

The Canadian names I have seen tossed out there make me think USL level for the first few years but a lot will depend on the level of imports.  Also on how many diamonds in the rough we can uncover in the Canadian soccer landscape.

 As much as I love Ottawa's Canadian project it is a mid-level USL team despite being NASL a few years ago.  That said it would probably only take a couple high level signings, one or 2 potential stars, to make the Fury a high level USL team.

I think in Year 1 if you end up with 4-5 high level USL quality teams and 2-3 mid-level USL quality teams and none of the lower level types it would be quite watchable soccer and a good base to build on.  Obviously significantly better than USL is the goal down the road, via Canadian youth development, stadium improvements, and subsequent budget increases for international signings.

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, shamrock said:

Shall we look at the number of former TFC (Academy) that will sign for CanPL club as an indication of level of play? 

Seriously on what basic do you think level will be above USL? Where are those players playing right now?

If they're in a good spot, they'll stay. If they're not, they're probably USL players. Nothing wrong with that but stop deluding yourself into thinking CanPL will instantly create dozens of high level players. 

Think of it this way:

There are usually 60-90 Canadians playing in USL each year (example), with a high turnover as players age out of development teams. A large number of those are attached to MLS2 teams and (as you suggested) are unlikely to switch to CPL since they are in an MLS development track. But those who aren't, and those who get too old to be worth keeping on a development team (usually when they hit 23-24) but are still "USL level", would likely be very interested in coming home with a modest pay bump.

Conservatively, let's say there's 40 of those guys still interested in a soccer career. That's about 5 signings per club. If CPL's salaries are anywhere near reported, the 6 or 7 import players they bring in will be much higher quality than what USL can attract, considering USL generally only pays players about $1800 a month in season and nothing in the off-season (some exceptions like FC Cincinnati and the Rowdies).

Between those 5 ex-USL players and 6 or 7 import players a significant cut above USL level, you're already passing the USL. Throw in a sprinkling of CMNT veterans willing to come back in the 40-50k range (guys like Ledgerwood, Hainult, Jackson, etc), it becomes even easier to see how a CPL starting eleven could surpass USL. Team depth could come from locals/leagues like L1O and PLSQ and not hurt that projection much.

I expect some shakiness in the first couple of seasons (overpaying players to come to an untested league, difficulty finding out of contract Canadians, etc), but this isn't a difficult vision to fulfill in a couple years if Milton's reporting is roughly accurate. Even if the figures are half of what he's reporting they would still edge out USL.

I don't think you and I actually see the Canadian player pool all that differently or what sort of players CPL could attract...I just think you are overestimating the strength of USL

[matty]

49 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Do we have a cure for inferiority complex syndrome??

that's not an argument. it's a sign of an inferiority complex

 

[matty]

15 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Between those 5 ex-USL players and 6 or 7 import players a significant cut above USL level, you're already passing the USL. Throw in a sprinkling of CMNT veterans willing to come back in the 40-50k range (guys like Ledgerwood, Hainult, Jackson, etc), it becomes even easier to see how a CPL starting eleven could surpass USL. Team depth could come from locals/leagues like L1O and PLSQ and not hurt that projection much.

I think you're point depends on who the import players are. I'm doubtful that year 1-3 or maybe 4-5 the CPL is able to lure Costa Rican, Honduran or Panamanian (maybe even Salvadorian) players from their nations bigger clubs and given the drop off in quality outside of the top 2-4 teams in those league I'd question if you'd be able to build a USL level league with what you would get. I also think it's likely that most imports will be USL level Americans or Caribbean players.

Something on parish seems likely but a cut above could be pushing it

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, matty said:

that's not an argument. it's a sign of an inferiority complex

 

Then calling an optimistic "delusional" isnt an argument either. Makes me not even bother to make my case

@shamrock

Paul Beirne adressed what the league would looking at in terms of imports during a Q & A in Halifax (the 1st one I think)

Not only will CPL will be better positioned to attract imports than USL, unless things changed, Beirne said D1 and D2 imports would be the target, deeming lower too low.

The number of import allowed will be critical at determining what level of play we'll be having in year one but it will only go up and fast.

Question... Where are the USL Americans come from?

[Complete Homer]

15 minutes ago, matty said:

I think you're point depends on who the import players are. I'm doubtful that year 1-3 or maybe 4-5 the CPL is able to lure Costa Rican, Honduran or Panamanian (maybe even Salvadorian) players from their nations bigger clubs and given the drop off in quality outside of the top 2-4 teams in those league I'd question if you'd be able to build a USL level league with what you would get. I also think it's likely that most imports will be USL level Americans or Caribbean players.

Something on parish seems likely but a cut above could be pushing it

I absolutely agree that in the first couple seasons there will be some difficulty (and likely overpaying) attracting players to a brand new league, but with the functionally unlimited number of USL-quality import players available worldwide (think of how many 3rd and 4th tier players there are in the big European pyramids), the market won't have difficulty finding ~50-75 pros interested in coming over in the 40-50k range for long. NASL didn't have much difficulty despite having a pile of red flags for players

Edited July 2, 2018 by Complete Homer

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, matty said:

I think you're point depends on who the import players are. I'm doubtful that year 1-3 or maybe 4-5 the CPL is able to lure Costa Rican, Honduran or Panamanian (maybe even Salvadorian) players from their nations bigger clubs and given the drop off in quality outside of the top 2-4 teams in those league I'd question if you'd be able to build a USL level league with what you would get. I also think it's likely that most imports will be USL level Americans or Caribbean players.

Something on parish seems likely but a cut above could be pushing it

That's a lots of speculation here dismissing the whole human/family/social aspect.

So someone from the leagues you mentioned being guaranteed a good salary, guaranteed money, great life for himself & family and opportunity to headline a D1 in Canada would pass???

That's just not Central America reality and some would benefit to go see the real Central America before claiming that players would just "pass" on a chance to move here with their families and STILL play soccer in a Top league. Last time I checked, we were top 3 or 5 in most livable country in the world Ugh....

CPL creation will attract more than you realize just in term of standards of living and opportunity. And as it's been pointed out before, as of now, salaries are projected to be higher than USL, a critical fact in regards to imports 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Ansem

[Shortdutchcanuck]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

Throw in a sprinkling of CMNT veterans willing to come back in the 40-50k range (guys like Ledgerwood, Hainult, Jackson, etc), it becomes even easier to see how a CPL starting eleven could surpass USL. Team depth could come from locals/leagues like L1O and PLSQ and not hurt that projection much.

 

I agree with a lot of your points but unless teams are going to be offering vets like Haber and Jackson and Hainault  a lot more than 40-50,000 I can't imagine many such players coming to CanPL.  I think those guys would have to be among  the higher end of the pay scale to come back .

[matty]

49 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That's a lots of speculation here dismissing the whole human/family/social aspect.

So someone from the leagues you mentioned being guaranteed a good salary, guaranteed money, great life for himself & family and opportunity to headline a D1 in Canada would pass???

That's just not Central America reality and some would benefit to go see the real Central America before claiming that players would just "pass" on a chance to move here with their families and STILL play soccer in a Top league. Last time I checked, we were top 3 or 5 in most livable country in the world Ugh....

CPL creation will attract more than you realize just in term of standards of living and opportunity. And as it's been pointed out before, as of now, salaries are projected to be higher than USL, a critical fact in regards to imports 

 

It's not dismissing it at all. I'm factoring in things like family situation which I don't think you are. I think beyond standard of living you have to look at a lot of possible personal situations (eg. will CPL money be enough to support a single income household should a partner not be able to work here and what will become of a child's current education?). You're assuming the money is right as well which I doubt would be the case for many players.

I've actually been to Central America and the standard, while lower than Canada and US, is not some terrible nightmare in many nations (like Panama and Costa Rica). You and your family can live a very safe and comfortable life there.

The CPL will (as I said) eventually be able to lure the higher level players but day 1 year 1 does that seem likely? Especially as it has been reported (I don't remember who said it but I recall seeing it here) budgets are under USL.

[Complete Homer]

4 minutes ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

I agree with a lot of your points but unless teams are going to be offering vets like Haber and Jackson and Hainault  a lot more than 40-50,000 I can't imagine many such players coming to CanPL.  I think those guys would have to be among  the higher end of the pay scale to come back .

Jackson is playing for a team near the bottom of League 2. I don't know his contract but League 2 average salaries are apparently around 70k (CAD). So you're right, probably a little low, but I don't think guys in his situation would necessarily balk at a mid 50k range contract in the right situation 

Hainault is probably a bad example on my part. I don't know what salaries look like in 3. Liga but probably more than I suggested 

[matty]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Then calling an optimistic "delusional" isnt an argument either. Makes me not even bother to make my case

@shamrock

Paul Beirne adressed what the league would looking at in terms of imports during a Q & A in Halifax (the 1st one I think)

Not only will CPL will be better positioned to attract imports than USL, unless things changed, Beirne said D1 and D2 imports would be the target, deeming lower too low.

The number of import allowed will be critical at determining what level of play we'll be having in year one but it will only go up and fast.

Question... Where are the USL Americans come from?

I agree but you started it with him (he said you were deluding not delusional, you also did it with me for seemingly no reason). I also CPL level of play will get better each year the league becomes more and more stable.

I recall PB's comment and it's fairly vague. He never really says what the target it for foreign players (while it could be a Costa Rican NT player from Herediano or it could be someone playing on the last place team from Belize). I think the CPL does offer the status of D1 and likely CCL (which is better than USL) but it's still unknown what exactly they're working with.

Regarding D1 and D2, USL very much do the same and USL Americans will be Americans (from the USA, if your trying to get into the "what is an American" argument please don't cause it's stupid)

Edited July 2, 2018 by matty

[Shortdutchcanuck]

Delighted we've gone from arguing over whether CanPL will get off ground at all in 2019 to whether it will have more than 6 teams Year 1 to whether the logos are the best ever or total shit and finally to what will the talent level look like compared to other leagues.  It's going to be a fun 9-10 months of signings.

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

Delighted we've gone from arguing over whether CanPL will get off ground at all in 2019 to whether it will have more than 6 teams Year 1 to whether the logos are the best ever or total shit and finally to what will the talent level look like compared to other leagues.  It's going to be a fun 9-10 months of signings.

The team names are mostly shit so far (let's argue about that again)

[Complete Homer]

2 minutes ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

Delighted we've gone from arguing 

"discussing" ?

[Admin]

2 minutes ago, matty said:

The team names are mostly shit so far (let's argue about that again)

Argue about this stuff when your grandchildren have season tickets.

[matty]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

Argue about this stuff when your grandchildren have season tickets.

Probably will cause being successful long term doesn't mean a name isn't terrible (see. Megadeth, Aerosmith, Pearl Jam, Pink Floyd).

[Admin]

1 minute ago, matty said:

Probably will cause being successful long term doesn't mean a name isn't terrible (see. Megadeth, Aerosmith, Pearl Jam, Pink Floyd).

 That's not the point.....

 

 

[matty]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

 That's not the point.....

 

 

i know

[CDNFootballer]

USL salaries actually dropped this year with their competitor NASL taking a haitus for 2018, there were players retiring instead of taking the lower salaries offered. One example had an $80K per year NASL player being offered $30K to play in USL. Indy gutted their higher paid players when jumping to USL and brought in lower paid replacements.

Players will follow the money by and large so if CPL pays higher salaries many will opt for them over USL.

Thankfully, as shown by USL's Jake Edwards comments previously, USL seems to understand and accept that Canada needs their own league and don't think they will have many bargaining wars for Canadian players with CPL clubs in the end.

[Keegan]

19 hours ago, shamrock said:

The Champions League spot does't say anything about the level. Panama has a CL spot, that in itself won't influence the level of play.

The higher budget, where do you get this? I believe it when I see it. Baulderdash77 saying here we should look at Ottawa is right, that is the level we should be expecting.

Top division, again, that in itself doesn't do anything. Belize has a Top Division...

Well have to see wether players are going to choose ULS or CanPL. For ambitious players with an eye on MLS, USL is the better road obviously. 

Level will be USL or below, maybe in a decade or two we'll see improvements but don't forget USL has been improving as well and probably will continue to do so. 

Of course not but you would be foolish to think it doesn’t matter.  You are an international footballer faced with a choice - sign for a top division club with continental football v sign for a 2nd division club with no shot of ever playing outside the USA.  It’s basic common sense - not an argument to be had.  When you assume the salary is the same and living quality similar then why wouldn’t you sign for the CPL club?  You’d have to have a hard on to live in the USA all things being equal because if you’re ambitious and serious about football CPL is a better option. 

I don’t think the difference will be big or noticeable at all - it’ll be like we’re NASL v USL.  But there’s no problem with calling a spade a spade...

Canadian players in usl will be jumping at the chance that’s without question.  Internationals in usl and abroad would love to no doubt (for instance all the Caribbean internationals).  Will Americans? Probably not - but we don’t care. 

I also disagree that USL is a better road to MLS than CPL.  On what basis?  Unless you’re on a reserve squad but otherwise it’s the exact same difference but again you’ll probably get more exposure playing CPL.. aside from the USOC USL teams don’t get that. 

Also FWIW Panama is an equal or better level than USL and last I checked Belize didn’t have a fully professional top division.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Keegan

[Keegan]

7 hours ago, matty said:

I think you're point depends on who the import players are. I'm doubtful that year 1-3 or maybe 4-5 the CPL is able to lure Costa Rican, Honduran or Panamanian (maybe even Salvadorian) players from their nations bigger clubs and given the drop off in quality outside of the top 2-4 teams in those league I'd question if you'd be able to build a USL level league with what you would get. I also think it's likely that most imports will be USL level Americans or Caribbean players.

Something on parish seems likely but a cut above could be pushing it

Why are you assuming the imports are from concacaf rivals?  If you want cheap and good players you look to South America.. if you go fishing with 6 figures down there as is being reported you’re going to attract many very good players. 

[matty]

20 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Why are you assuming the imports are from concacaf rivals?  If you want cheap and good players you look to South America.. if you go fishing with 6 figures down there as is being reported you’re going to attract many very good players. 

Because PB has mentioned CA and VM said the following

“I think there will be an element that will look at the Concacaf player and give him an opportunity to come into the league."

Like I don't doubt we'll see SA and Euro and Asian and African players but most it seems will be CONCACAF and in addition most leagues sign foreign talent from within their own confederation.

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by matty

[Ansem]

When I say Canadians will surprise us in CPL, AS Blainville fought valiantly and competitively against Ottawa Fury, the same Fury who went on a winning spree against other USL clubs.

CPL will just motivate our current pool that much more, make our players that much hungrier. AS Blainville & Oakville Blue Devils guys understood as much. That game wasn't just about the Canadian Championship, it was a freaking audition for CPL and I was impressed and did not expected them to compete the way they did.

Don't mean to insult anyone but our guys heart is being seriously undervalued here. What better motivation than CPL?

And again, no way a central American player turns down guaranteed money and security for himself and family for USL or staying home (unless the cash at home is ridiculous which isn't most of the case)

I appreciate some have visited Central America but my parents were born there and I've live long stretch there twice. My dad born in those parts laughed at the idea that those guys wouldn't jump at the chance to come here.

And salary wise, we all know imports are the most likely to make the most money, they will be fine here.

I'm not here claiming we beat MLS teams in V Cup or CCL but debating if we'll be at level or lower than USL is getting frankly ridiculous. I think the league has shown enough to support that they have bigger ambitions and scope than USL.

[shamrock]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

 I think the league has shown enough to support that they have bigger ambitions and scope than USL.

What has that to do with the level of play? It's the players who make that and the players CanPL will get are USL players at best and yes some imports. But these imports also have other options and I really doubt they'll be lured away from the better USL teams out here (Sac, Cincinnati etc). For the Canucks, USL-level is all there is anyway. 

No way Ottawa is going to be dead last (if they keep this squad together). In time things can change but for starters the level is going to be (sub-) USL.