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2 hours ago, Cblake said:

Honestly the CPL is going to be a USL level league when you consider the economics that is being discussed salary wise. Just looking at the size of the stadiums in most cases this league knows at what level they are starting at. I kind of wonder, are the CPL teams going to compare to say the Welsh League vs the teams that play in the English system.

The CSA did take away Canadian playing opportunities when the approved Americans being counted as domestics on Canadian MLS teams do there is come contradicts here. 

 

I doubt that issue was ever on the table.  I dont remember all the ins and outs back when TFC joined MLS but I dont think MLS would have agreed to anything that significantly worked against US players.  It sucks, but its their world and we were just a squirrel trying to get a nut.   And if TFC had to come up with a dozen CDN players for year 1 (instead of only 3) it would have sunk them right off the bat.  Same goes for CPL, we want a good level of CDN, but not so many that we are scraping up every college/usl and 5th level european pro to come up with the numbers. And hopefully, naturally the numbers will come up.  

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4 hours ago, Cblake said:

Honestly the CPL is going to be a USL level league when you consider the economics that is being discussed salary wise.

The rumoured salaries for CPL are about three to five times larger than average USL salaries. We don't know how accurate those rumours are yet, but if true CPL will roughly be as far ahead of USL by relative salary than MLS will be above CPL

4 hours ago, Cblake said:

I kind of wonder, are the CPL teams going to compare to say the Welsh League vs the teams that play in the English system.

Welsh vs EPL is only a good comparison for understanding how one team can have two leagues. The EPL is the richest league in the world and the Welsh league plays in front of crowds in the hundreds. The gap between MLS and CPL will be orders of magnitude smaller

 

4 hours ago, Cblake said:

The CSA did take away Canadian playing opportunities when the approved Americans being counted as domestics on Canadian MLS teams do there is come contradicts here. 

 

Even if you place the entire blame of the Whitecaps choosing to fold their team onto the CSA (which is silly in my opinion, it was the Whitecaps decided to fold the team), you are talking about a single year where there are about 6 fewer starting spots for Canadians at a relatively low level. It's a stretch to me that one would consider it less of a risk for Canadian soccer to lose a handful of USL starters for one year vs disrupting the market for a new permanent CPL club that will not only likely have more Canadians on it, but are actually committed to the market and represents a much higher ceiling than a reserve team that is teetering on folding.

Edited by Complete Homer
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5 hours ago, Cblake said:

Honestly the CPL is going to be a USL level league when you consider the economics that is being discussed salary wise. Just looking at the size of the stadiums in most cases this league knows at what level they are starting at. I kind of wonder, are the CPL teams going to compare to say the Welsh League vs the teams that play in the English system.

The CSA did take away Canadian playing opportunities when the approved Americans being counted as domestics on Canadian MLS teams do there is come contradicts here. 

 

CPL is going into year 1 and will grow from there just like MLS is much different now in terms of quality of play than their first year in 1996.

In a few years CPL's quality of play will grow much above MLS's minor league USL and with salaries that are seemingly going to be above USL first year they may best them at launch.

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1 hour ago, CDNFootballer said:

CPL is going into year 1 and will grow from there just like MLS is much different now in terms of quality of play than their first year in 1996.

In a few years CPL's quality of play will grow much above MLS's minor league USL and with salaries that are seemingly going to be above USL first year they may best them at launch.

The USL is not the MLS's minor league, its the second division in the US. The same level that the NASL was when Ottawa and Edmonton played in it. The quality of play is actually pretty good minus some of the MLS2 teams that at least a few of will drop down to the USL D3 that is launching next year. It will be interesting to see if the CPL does offer up some Canadians more than the MLS minimum?

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8 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

The rumoured salaries for CPL are about three to five times larger than average USL salaries. We don't know how accurate those rumours are yet, but if true CPL will roughly be as far ahead of USL by relative salary than MLS will be above CPL

Even if that's true (which I doubt), you're still going to spend it on USL (-level) players. I doubt there will be a lot of players with regular minutes in MLS that you can get over to CanPL, or players with options in Europe. So it will be some USL players (again, the best have options and won't automatically choose CanPL if they get a good USL offer) and college prospects, which would make the level sub-USL, at least for the first couple of years. 

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5 hours ago, shamrock said:

Even if that's true (which I doubt), you're still going to spend it on USL (-level) players. I doubt there will be a lot of players with regular minutes in MLS that you can get over to CanPL, or players with options in Europe. So it will be some USL players (again, the best have options and won't automatically choose CanPL if they get a good USL offer) and college prospects, which would make the level sub-USL, at least for the first couple of years. 

You're probably right for the domestic players, but the global pool is so large that that large of a salary gap would create a reasonable quality difference from the imports landing in your starting 11.

Again, I'm not saying the rumoured salaries are true, but the "it will be USL level at best" lines are more based on vague feelings than anything else until the league actually releases information to the contrary 

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Hopefully we have enough money to entice players but not to inflate salaries off the bat. 

Its not hard to guess the level if this will be a mostly Canadian league.  Look at Ottawa and that is your typical CPL team.. which leads me to believe that with just 8 teams we’ll have a higher average level than USL when you chop out all the reserve team rubbish and CPL2 level markets.  

So the hope, for me at least, is that we have USL level salary to create Ottawa level teams and then spend some money on internationals to fill out the rest of this supposedly higher cap and raise the level/recognition for our players and the league. 

Edited by Keegan
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Ottawa have almost no competition domestically right now in putting together a USSF D2 sort of level roster together with mainly relatively experienced Canadian players given TFC II's developmental focus, the demise of the other two MLS B teams and FCE's hiatus. It's not safe to assume that if eight franchises are trying to do the same the quality in each case will be comparable to what the Fury have been able to do this season, because the domestic talent pool is not all that deep. 

Instead of making bombastic statements about being ahead of USL D2 straight away for reasons of visceral level national pride the focus should be on how to build the player development pathways in Canada to produce more good pro level players 5 to 10 years down the road. Not working closely with the three MLS academy systems was not a good start in that regard, because that's where the lion's share of the Canadian youth level national teams have been coming from in recent years.

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I think that the current Ottawa team is roughly the level that we’re going to see next year.  

The CPl will scrape most of the better Canadian talent that’s not in the MLS (as well as the bottom end of what is in MLS).

For the international spots I think it’s going to draw in the top end of USL player pool and the mid level of some of the other Concacaf and lower level of AFC and European  countries.  

Remember most of the USL pool has American players “protected” from foreign competition.  In CPL they won’t get protected roster spots and will have to get by on quality.  That’s why Ottawa has 0 US players on it.

Edited by baulderdash77
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Yes that’s what I’m getting at.  We have enough quality for 8 Ottawa level teams plus a couple dozen guys playing at a higher level than that.  

What the CPL is going to do is consolidate 100+ of our players that are scattered all over the place and develop consistency and a playing style.

For future national team fixtures is going to be easy for the manager to see who’s in form in CPL and the few guys playing higher and build a team together.  No more unattached FC or guys between contracts on the national team.

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Somehow I don't think that cautiously projecting what the salaries reported by two sources would mean in relation to on field quality while qualifying the statement by saying nothing is confirmed meets the criteria for being "bombastic" 

I also don't think it's asinine to believe that CPL is looking to be a true, fully professional league, which many USL teams can only be loosely defined as such (on ~$15,000 a season you aren't actually living full time off of soccer) 

Not saying that every team will match FC Cincinnati or the Rowdies either, but I think some people are overestimating the strength of most USL teams. Every report of USL salaries from multiple independent journalists pegs salaries far below what has been reported for CPL. 

While I understand that not everyone is willing to give Milton or Rollins the benefit of the doubt on their reporting, assuming that USL will automatically hold an advantage over CPL, especially in the long term, is not evidence based. It actually relies on ignoring the only available evidence in favour of a vague sense of inferiority. 

Even a basic estimation of player expenses using James Eaton's and Nipun Chopra's rules of thumb (D2 player costs being 1/3 of total costs, D2 team total revenue being roughly double ticket revenue) puts the player budget for a CPL team pulling in 6000 fans at $25 a pop for 14 home games at...1.4 million. Not far off from Milton and Rollins' reports. 

I agree that Ottawa likely represents a decent rough approximation, but unless someone is bringing forward actual evidence, I'll use the current reports as my rough expectation until the league says otherwise. I won't be mortified or shocked if the reports are wrong, but baseless skepticism is just as silly as baseless optimism. Type I and Type II errors are equally incorrect 

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23 hours ago, Cblake said:

The USL is not the MLS's minor league, its the second division in the US. The same level that the NASL was when Ottawa and Edmonton played in it. The quality of play is actually pretty good minus some of the MLS2 teams that at least a few of will drop down to the USL D3 that is launching next year. It will be interesting to see if the CPL does offer up some Canadians more than the MLS minimum?

USL and MLS have an agreement for USL to house MLS minor league reserve/farm teams and affiliate teams (22 and growing, composing the majority of the league) so they are in fact the MLS's minor/development/feeder league even though they house some fully independent franchises as well. The D2 level is not what makes it or not a minor league of MLS, its the agreement to house the minor league MLS teams.

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1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

Somehow I don't think that cautiously projecting what the salaries reported by two sources would mean in relation to on field quality while qualifying the statement by saying nothing is confirmed meets the criteria for being "bombastic" 

I also don't think it's asinine to believe that CPL is looking to be a true, fully professional league, which many USL teams can only be loosely defined as such (on ~$15,000 a season you aren't actually living full time off of soccer) 

Not saying that every team will match FC Cincinnati or the Rowdies either, but I think some people are overestimating the strength of most USL teams. Every report of USL salaries from multiple independent journalists pegs salaries far below what has been reported for CPL. 

While I understand that not everyone is willing to give Milton or Rollins the benefit of the doubt on their reporting, assuming that USL will automatically hold an advantage over CPL, especially in the long term, is not evidence based. It actually relies on ignoring the only available evidence in favour of a vague sense of inferiority. 

Even a basic estimation of player expenses using James Eaton's and Nipun Chopra's rules of thumb (D2 player costs being 1/3 of total costs, D2 team total revenue being roughly double ticket revenue) puts the player budget for a CPL team pulling in 6000 fans at $25 a pop for 14 home games at...1.4 million. Not far off from Milton and Rollins' reports. 

I agree that Ottawa likely represents a decent rough approximation, but unless someone is bringing forward actual evidence, I'll use the current reports as my rough expectation until the league says otherwise. I won't be mortified or shocked if the reports are wrong, but baseless skepticism is just as silly as baseless optimism. Type I and Type II errors are equally incorrect 

Bolded portion is spot on.  For those who are behind:

- we have champions league spot(s)

- we have a higher budget 

- we are a top division 

why do we think we will be usl level?  Sure as a start and as a base but we need to realize the reality and set expectations higher.  Does anyone think Costa Rica is usl level?

if you were a player being offered the same salary between usl and CPL we hold the advantage clearly.. we will likely have more exposure, continental football and the added bonus of being a top division. 

Basically we’ll be USL improved off the bat.  USL already gets some good players but if you’re a concacaf international clearly you would choose CPL.. the lifestyle is just as good, higher budgets and higher exposure. We’re in a really good spot.

 

Edited by Keegan
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13 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

It’s not 100% salary, it’s Canadian player pool.  If we have 16 Canadian players on a roster the average level of those players is going to be USL or slightly higher from those players.

That’s why Ottawa is a rough approximation of the level we will get for next year.  Over time it will improve.  

Absolutely, but like you said long term that will change. Eventually the Canadian pool at this level will basically be a wash with the American one

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12 hours ago, Keegan said:

I think our player pool is deep enough to have 8 Ottawa level squads and if that’s an issue just allow more internationals.  Just look at all the Canadians on USL teams down south plus add in players abroad we could see return like Haber, Jackson, Aird, Straith.. think we’re a lot better off than most realIze. 

No we don't. You're assuming here all of them will play in CPL, I'm saying some will and some won't. If you pay them double sure they'll come, but I don't think teams are going to d that. 

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4 hours ago, Keegan said:

Bolded portion is spot on.  For those who are behind:

- we have champions league spot(s)

- we have a higher budget 

- we are a top division 

why do we think we will be usl level?  Sure as a start and as a base but we need to realize the reality and set expectations higher.  Does anyone think Costa Rica is usl level?

if you were a player being offered the same salary between usl and CPL we hold the advantage clearly.. we will likely have more exposure, continental football and the added bonus of being a top division. 

Basically we’ll be USL improved off the bat.  USL already gets some good players but if you’re a concacaf international clearly you would choose CPL.. the lifestyle is just as good, higher budgets and higher exposure. We’re in a really good spot.

 

The Champions League spot does't say anything about the level. Panama has a CL spot, that in itself won't influence the level of play.

The higher budget, where do you get this? I believe it when I see it. Baulderdash77 saying here we should look at Ottawa is right, that is the level we should be expecting.

Top division, again, that in itself doesn't do anything. Belize has a Top Division...

Well have to see wether players are going to choose ULS or CanPL. For ambitious players with an eye on MLS, USL is the better road obviously. 

Level will be USL or below, maybe in a decade or two we'll see improvements but don't forget USL has been improving as well and probably will continue to do so. 

Edited by shamrock
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8 Ottawa level teams I think is realistic and I don’t think it’s derogatory in any way.  I’m quite happy to be a season seat holder and go to 14 games at that level.

It really is the level where the bulk of our player pool sits.  Especially when your talking about grabbing 100-130 Canadian players.

My other point though is that with 8 Ottawa level teams, the players will get better this will establish a baseline of talent for our national program.

Example:  We will probably instantly have 6 more starters at RB and 12 more starters at CB.  There’s going to be several in form and that gives the manager options for team selection.

 

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I think CPL put out quality way above USL.

Speaking of which, looks like the end of the road for TFC II in USL 2nd division

I dare anyone starting to compare CPL to USL D3. I double dare you! ?

Edited by Ansem
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6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I think CPL put out quality way above USL.

Speaking of which, looks like the end of the road for TFC II in USL 2nd division

I dare anyone starting to compare CPL to USL D3. I double dare you! ?

Wasn't there some Tweet saying USL salaries would be generally higher or some shit? Also D3 will have more teams so CPL loses that comparison.

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1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I dare anyone starting to compare CPL to USL D3. I double dare you! ?

Shall we look at the number of former TFC (Academy) that will sign for CanPL club as an indication of level of play? 

Seriously on what basic do you think level will be above USL? Where are those players playing right now?

If they're in a good spot, they'll stay. If they're not, they're probably USL players. Nothing wrong with that but stop deluding yourself into thinking CanPL will instantly create dozens of high level players. 

Edited by shamrock
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