CPL General

[Rheo]

I just don't get where some of the doubters get offended for being "attacked" for their constant negativity and then turn around make fun of those who are positive generally.  Personally I just find the whole thing stupid on both sides.  

[LAK]

I contributed nothing! I checked my profile and it says I signed up in 2008, but I didn't contribute much in the form of posts back then either. I only recently started to speak up, like within the last year. But...I've said too much since I've never contributed money, just go ahead and delete this post moderator

[Gordon]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You have no idea what you are talking about, sad to say. There is no evidence to support the argument that those being gung-ho (and I would say naive) about a currently non-existent league are any more authentic or dedicated in their support of the game than those who are skeptics. Or that somehow they are bigger spenders on local football. 

Shermanator is arguing that anyone who disagrees with his unique and superior line of support for the CPL is not really an authentic supporter, and won't ever spend their money watching a game anyways. He does this to discredit those who disagree with him. It is his line of thinking (and apparently yours), not mine.

Those who donated for the Voyageurs Cup, like the shield for women's soccer too, put their money where their mouth is. The legacy is undeniable. Supporters on this board led the way, and the CSA and the teams followed. It is now internationally recognized for what it is. 

BTW, Gordon, most of us did not donate the low quantities you are saying, your argument is way cheaper than we were, good show.

 

 

 

It is absurd to argue that a donation made 15 years ago is evidence of anything today. My argument is that simple, and contained to that point only. I find it amusing that my challenging an argument I think ill conceived is now sufficient evidence for you to suggest as to how I “apparently” think on tangentially related subject. Actually though, I have weighed in above stating that I have no problem in understanding why some people are sceptical. More than once in this thread. As recently as yesterday. For the record.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, Rheo said:

I just don't get where some of the doubters get offended for being "attacked" for their constant negativity and then turn around make fun of those who are positive generally.  Personally I just find the whole thing stupid on both sides.  

Are we not all supposed to be Voyageurs? Seems a bit bizarre that people leaning on the basis of pragmatism or idealism towards two differing strategies for having more pro level opportunities for Canadian players gets described as "two sides" and people lose sight of the fact that everybody here has a shared interest in the CMNT and that some get so zealous about it that they can't even tolerate a differing perspective on the topic. Just a game of soccer in the final analysis which is a form of popular entertainment rather than something that genuinely affects people's lives like politics so maybe try to chill out a little bit?  

Edited January 5, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Gopherbashi]

This is a fascinating gatekeeping pissing contest y'all have got going on, but what do people think of this canplhub thing that's working its way around Twitter?  I assume it's some kind of directory to help people find a CPL SG?

[Rheo]

I'm very chill.  I haven't accused people of being on drugs or being mentally ill.  And we are all Voyageurs.  We have differences of opinions.  Just pointing out something I find funny.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Rheo

[Macksam]

39 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Are we not all supposed to be Voyageurs? Seems a bit bizarre that people leaning on the basis of pragmatism or idealism towards two differing strategies for having more pro level opportunities for Canadian players gets described as "two sides" and people lose sight of the fact that everybody here has a shared interest in the CMNT and that some get so zealous about it that they can't even tolerate a differing perspective on the topic. Just a game of soccer in the final analysis which is a form of popular entertainment rather than something that genuinely affects people's lives like politics so maybe try to chill out a little bit?  

 

Nobody is intolerant of your viewpoints. Everybody is just wondering why you keep harping on about some fantasy scenario regarding the USL when in reality things are heading in a different direction. All your posts look like this: “We shouldn’t do it the way it’s being proposed, it should be like this when it eventually fails to get off the ground.” and disregard any other opinion. 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Macksam

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

7 minutes ago, Rheo said:

I'm very chill.  I haven't accused people of being on drugs or being mentally ill.  And we are all Voyageurs.  We have differences of opinions.  Just pointing out something I find funny.

Ever wonder why so few people post here despite the massive growth of pro soccer crowds post-2007? It's nothing new. The Voyageurs board has always tended to be a small unrepresentative fringe rather than something mainstream to Canadian soccer, unfortunately.

[Rheo]

deleted

Edited January 5, 2018 by Rheo

[nolbertos]

From my understanding, even before I joined, the Voyageurs were always fringe fans, on both sides of the spectrum.  Nobody cared about talking about Canadian Futbol and to this day, even though we have more MLS teams, nobody cares (casuals and mainstream) talking about the Men's or Women's Futbol teams sadly.  If you want to refute me, by all means, please do, but that's what I observed.  This forum was a great outlet, and still is for debating Canadian futbol.  I think alot of people left for various reason.  I'll admit that I left on a long hiatus, because the CSA wasn't doing anything to help the men's game and grow the grassroots and still saw Canada miss the 5th straight WCQ since the last time we made the HEX.   Both our Hex results and no domestic league goes hand in hand.  MLS has helped abit, but the academies, which sadly right now aren't producing quality, is only a small pipeline.  We need a domestic league in some form, to get more players involved.

[Kent]

47 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

what do people think of this canplhub thing that's working its way around Twitter?  I assume it's some kind of directory to help people find a CPL SG?

I don't have a twitter account. Can I get some details about this "canplhub" thing? What is being said/asked and by who?

[Complete Homer]

26 minutes ago, Kent said:

I don't have a twitter account. Can I get some details about this "canplhub" thing? What is being said/asked and by who?

They were the ones with the cpl twitter account that kept getting mixed up with the official account, so they changed the name to CanPL Hub. Given that they were using the account primarily to retweet news, I think they are a group trying to set up another independent news/opinion type blog (probably similar-ish to northernstartingeleven.ca).  

All the power to them, more content about CPL can only increase the chances of helping build the grassroots support. Maybe we'll even get a fresh forum 

[Rintaran]

3 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

They were the ones with the cpl twitter account that kept getting mixed up with the official account, so they changed the name to CanPL Hub. Given that they were using the account primarily to retweet news, I think they are a group trying to set up another independent news/opinion type blog (probably similar-ish to northernstartingeleven.ca).  

All the power to them, more content about CPL can only increase the chances of helping build the grassroots support. Maybe we'll even get a fresh forum 

I think you mean northernstartingeleven.com .

I get the feeling CanPL Hub is going to focus more on the supporter culture surrounding Canadian Premier League, and perhaps serve as a sort of archive for CanPL news and the like. Honestly, I'm not sure what to expect, but I definitely welcome more places out there to get different opinions and news for the league. Either way, I'm hopeful they'll be down for occasional post swaps, both with NSXI and with other Canadian soccer news/opinion sites.

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, Rintaran said:

I think you mean northernstartingeleven.com .

I get the feeling CanPL Hub is going to focus more on the supporter culture surrounding Canadian Premier League, and perhaps serve as a sort of archive for CanPL news and the like. Honestly, I'm not sure what to expect, but I definitely welcome more places out there to get different opinions and news for the league. Either way, I'm hopeful they'll be down for occasional post swaps, both with NSXI and with other Canadian soccer news/opinion sites.

oops 

[CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE]

4 hours ago, nolbertos said:

MLS has helped abit, but the academies, which sadly right now aren't producing quality, is only a small pipeline.

I somewhat disagree with this. The Canadian MLS academies have produced some quality players over the last five years or so. The fact that many of them are not regular starters is a whole other story, but I think some of it will change come this season. At least a few, (those that are high-quality) will likely get more playing time and maybe some will be starters. I'm looking at guys like Raheem, Ballou, Jackson-Hamel(a likely starter throughout the season and likewise Osorio). Davies, may get there too, who knows later in the season, but most likely will be coming off the bench for the majority of times. These names are some very decent level-talent, imho anyways. If you look at the next generation from the MLS academies, there seems to be some very good talent there (talking guys late 90s, early 2000s). Though, I do agree 100% that we need our own domestic to take things to a whole other level and just take off from there from what we are doing now. The MLS academies are doing the best they can in developing/producing talent for the CANMNT, but we can't just rely in them, as you mention it is a very small pipeline indeed. We gotta make it more accessible from coast to coast these professional opportunities to aspiring Canadian footballers and be able to pursue comfortably their dream careers at home without any BS restrictions imposed by the MLS (not considering like at lest 90% of Canadians domestic in U.S. based teams), hence leaving many promising skilled CANMNters to ply their trade in lower-division leagues (USL, NASL anyone) where their skills are often too good for those leagues. Canadian-based MLS teams can only accomodate too many players. And the MLS teams should do better in integrating their youth to the first team and providing much more playing time than what they regularly get. Note, this is not only restricted to the Canadian MLS teams, the other day in Extra Time Radio, MLS insiders mentioned that it is also a recurring theme in U.S.-based teams, as many are now leaning to bringing middle-to-above-skilled young South Americans  to produce results right away as opposed to trusting and giving opportunities to their youth. Maybe CANPL can take note of that and avoid these same mistakes.

 

[yellowsweatygorilla]

https://twitter.com/CanPL_CN

I wonder who is doing this, but this is awesome a Chinese language twitter covering CanPL news.  Seems more like a fan initiative but I wonder if it's the league attempting to cover various communities - I think there's a Brazilian/Portuguese one too?

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, Gordon said:

It is absurd to argue that a donation made 15 years ago is evidence of anything today. My argument is that simple, and contained to that point only. I find it amusing that my challenging an argument I think ill conceived is now sufficient evidence for you to suggest as to how I “apparently” think on tangentially related subject. Actually though, I have weighed in above stating that I have no problem in understanding why some people are sceptical. More than once in this thread. As recently as yesterday. For the record.

Yes, but you are backing this comment I quote from Shermanator. Which I assume to mean that you are in fact lying, and that you do think that you are superior because you are sure you'll spend on a CPL ticket while the skeptics won't. You are superior in a hypothetical future.

Now, if you don't agree with this opinion, insulting people  on the basis of what they will do or not in a fantasy future, why are you so vehemently defending it?

Here's the opinion you seem to be backing:

"See you in the stands folks. Or more accurately, I won't see you in the stands, because the vocal posters I am referring to have no intention on putting their money towards making this thing succeed."

In the end, many of the ones talking the most trash, the most insulting, the most consistently arrogant and denigrating, and bullshitting for dozens of pages: these are the ones who call themselves "optimists". Just thought I should point that out, take it or leave it.

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Ever wonder why so few people post here despite the massive growth of pro soccer crowds post-2007? It's nothing new. The Voyageurs board has always tended to be a small unrepresentative fringe rather than something mainstream to Canadian soccer, unfortunately.

To be fair, BBTB, plenty of people are now on their own suppporter group forums for MLS related posting, or on MLS webite. Some fans prefer Big Soccer, and others similar, which I find banal and at best a low level of posting, and highly regimented, but there you go. The fan base is more disperse and you can chat and get your opinion out through a lot of channels. It is not like before, when the V-Board was pretty well it, apart from Rocket Robin's famed reports or going onto the odd provincial association chat.

I rest on this board when the Spanish league is busy, or when I am busy with work. I have rarely taken more than a few month long break.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

12 hours ago, CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE said:

...We gotta make it more accessible from coast to coast these professional opportunities to aspiring Canadian footballers and be able to pursue comfortably their dream careers at home without any BS restrictions imposed by the MLS (not considering like at lest 90% of Canadians domestic in U.S. based teams),...

Nobody is arguing on the need for more professional opportunities. Canadians count as domestics on American based teams in the USL, so there is no obvious obstacle to using it from that sort of standpoint in the smaller cities. We don't need to reinvent the wheel to have more pro teams and more opportunities for our players. A few months back it looked like a launch announcement was probably imminent for CanPL with FCE leaving NASL, but now it is far from clear how they can even reach six by 2019 given FCE are not firmly on board because they see it as unsustainable and the Ottawa Fury were also being standoffish in their last statement on the subject. There are very few stadiums available that are viable for this sort of project given the proliferation of permanently marked fieldturf at university football fields, so it would be difficult to do in the short term without those two. They have most of this year to sort it all out, but after that I suspect it would be difficult for the CSA to justify continuing to move in the direction of launching a Canada only pro league, if they can't close the deal and have a successful launch.

Edited January 6, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[xman14]

9 hours ago, CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE said:

I somewhat disagree with this. The Canadian MLS academies have produced some quality players over the last five years or so. The fact that many of them are not regular starters is a whole other story, but I think some of it will change come this season. At least a few, (those that are high-quality) will likely get more playing time and maybe some will be starters. I'm looking at guys like Raheem, Ballou, Jackson-Hamel(a likely starter throughout the season and likewise Osorio). Davies, may get there too, who knows later in the season, but most likely will be coming off the bench for the majority of times. These names are some very decent level-talent, imho anyways. If you look at the next generation from the MLS academies, there seems to be some very good talent there (talking guys late 90s, early 2000s). Though, I do agree 100% that we need our own domestic to take things to a whole other level and just take off from there from what we are doing now. The MLS academies are doing the best they can in developing/producing talent for the CANMNT, but we can't just rely in them, as you mention it is a very small pipeline indeed. We gotta make it more accessible from coast to coast these professional opportunities to aspiring Canadian footballers and be able to pursue comfortably their dream careers at home without any BS restrictions imposed by the MLS (not considering like at lest 90% of Canadians domestic in U.S. based teams), hence leaving many promising skilled CANMNters to ply their trade in lower-division leagues (USL, NASL anyone) where their skills are often too good for those leagues. Canadian-based MLS teams can only accomodate too many players. And the MLS teams should do better in integrating their youth to the first team and providing much more playing time than what they regularly get. Note, this is not only restricted to the Canadian MLS teams, the other day in Extra Time Radio, MLS insiders mentioned that it is also a recurring theme in U.S.-based teams, as many are now leaning to bringing middle-to-above-skilled young South Americans  to produce results right away as opposed to trusting and giving opportunities to their youth. Maybe CANPL can take note of that and avoid these same mistakes.

 

I'd be hesitant to put Osorio into this category. We spent a good portion of his formidable years in Uruguay with Nacional. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

7 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

...It is not like before, when the V-Board was pretty well it,...

Even when it was pretty well it most people directly involved with soccer steered well clear, in my experience, partly because there was a hostile vibe generated by a minority of vociferous posters towards people that were born outside Canada which didn't help foster inclusiveness in a sport where many/most of the people involved and passionate about it tended to be from outside Canada originally. In general the more mainstream way of viewing things was that anything linked to the CSA was to be treated with derision and ignored including the national team, unfortunately, and that the only soccer that mattered was what you were directly involved with and what happened overseas. One of the things that helped MLS in credibility terms was that it wasn't tied into the CSA and provincial association structure, so the sort of passionate soccer people that steered well clear of the Voyageurs and anything CSA related like the original CSL were more willing to give it a look.

On this CanPL thing it seems to be small groups of relative newcomers to the sport that are getting excited about it, so not sure how much has really changed where the core of traditional soccer interest is concerned. Would be nice to think that the youth soccer registration boom from the mid-90s onward will translate into 5000 paid for a relatively low standard of soccer in watchability terms in cities like Halifax and Saskatoon, but it is completely unproven at this point so it's all based on blind faith and optimism from what I can see. One thing that surprises me is that outside of Hamilton where there have been some surveys circulated by the Ticats and local district association is that they haven't started doing things like hiring GMs and opening a front office in cities where things are further along on the spectrum of readiness, taking season ticket deposits and launching things like name the team contests as a way to gauge the actual probable interest level. It is still almost beneath the radar in visibility terms in many respects rather than making a big splash, which suggests that a significant portion of the people who are kicking the tires a bit on being an investor aren't 100% confident about it and want to be able to exit quietly stage right leaving no paper trail in mainstream media terms, if they can't get all the ducks neatly in a row.

Edited January 6, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Gordon]

10 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Yes, but you are backing this comment I quote from Shermanator. Which I assume to mean that you are in fact lying, and that you do think that you are superior because you are sure you'll spend on a CPL ticket while the skeptics won't. You are superior in a hypothetical future.

Now, if you don't agree with this opinion, insulting people  on the basis of what they will do or not in a fantasy future, why are you so vehemently defending it?

Here's the opinion you seem to be backing:

"See you in the stands folks. Or more accurately, I won't see you in the stands, because the vocal posters I am referring to have no intention on putting their money towards making this thing succeed."

In the end, many of the ones talking the most trash, the most insulting, the most consistently arrogant and denigrating, and bullshitting for dozens of pages: these are the ones who call themselves "optimists". Just thought I should point that out, take it or leave it.

You can assume whatever you want. That is why you continue to be wrong. It is a conceit to think you have any particular insight to the motivations of anyone one on this board based on on what hidden meaning or intent you think you can glean from what is not said. Or perhaps Jeffrey, you too have a direct line to a celestial entity? If so, by all means continue to insist. But here’s a little real insight - I didn’t challenge the post where you called Shermantor out for the opinion you think I “seem” to be backing. I called you out on the eminently dumb position that giving money 15 years ago is evidence of standing today. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

You are seriously blinkered if you choose a side and say it has behaved better or worse than the other btw. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Even when it was pretty well it most people directly involved with soccer steered well clear, in my experience, partly because there was a hostile vibe generated by a minority of vociferous posters towards people that were born outside Canada which didn't help foster inclusiveness in a sport where many/most of the people involved and passionate about it tended to be from outside Canada originally. In general the more mainstream way of viewing things was that anything linked to the CSA was to be treated with derision and ignored including the national team, unfortunately, and that the only soccer that mattered was what you were directly involved with and what happened overseas. One of the things that helped MLS in credibility terms was that it wasn't tied into the CSA and provincial association structure, so the sort of passionate soccer people that steered well clear of the Voyageurs and anything CSA related like the original CSL were more willing to give it a look.

On this CanPL thing it seems to be small groups of relative newcomers to the sport that are getting excited about it, so not sure how much has really changed where the core of traditional soccer interest is concerned. Would be nice to think that the youth soccer registration boom from the mid-90s onward will translate into 5000 paid for a relatively low standard of soccer in watchability terms in cities like Halifax and Saskatoon, but it is completely unproven at this point so it's all based on blind faith and optimism from what I can see. One thing that surprises me is that outside of Hamilton where there have been some surveys circulated by the Ticats and local district association is that they haven't started doing things like hiring GMs and opening a front office in cities where things are further along on the spectrum of readiness, taking season ticket deposits and launching things like name the team contests as a way to gauge the actual probable interest level. It is still almost beneath the radar in visibility terms in many respects rather than making a big splash, which suggests that a significant portion of the people who are kicking the tires a bit on being an investor aren't 100% confident about it and want to be able to exit quietly stage right leaving no paper trail in mainstream media terms, if they can't get all the ducks neatly in a row.

I have a different read on how the board was back then, but mind you, I really only know maybe a dozen people on this board personally. And of course I was vociferous and even more incorrigible back then than I am now, back then I was so angry with our failures with the MNT, now I, like a lot of fans, have simply dropped standards. 

In any case, as I see the CPL, they are trying to sell a vacuum as discretion or secrecy. And I find it very naive to think that a lack of substance has to do with corporate control of information, when it more likely has to do with lack of substance. 

I happen to believe, however, that our failure in a Canadian league is a disgrace, we are fools in world soccer, there are 180 countries less amateur than we are in this respect. We are on the tail end, and it's disgusting. And there are no signs that this will change. Nothing I have yet heard about how the CPL is coming about makes me feel differently. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

54 minutes ago, Gordon said:

You can assume whatever you want. That is why you continue to be wrong. It is a conceit to think you have any particular insight to the motivations of anyone one on this board based on on what hidden meaning or intent you think you can glean from what is not said. Or perhaps Jeffrey, you too have a direct line to a celestial entity? If so, by all means continue to insist. But here’s a little real insight - I didn’t challenge the post where you called Shermantor out for the opinion you think I “seem” to be backing. I called you out on the eminently dumb position that giving money 15 years ago is evidence of standing today. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

You are seriously blinkered if you choose a side and say it has behaved better or worse than the other btw. 

Well then I read it all wrong, Gordon, sorry, I tied you into what bothered me about Shermanator's post.

But I saw it this way: you can't insult people for imagining they won't support a league that doesn't exist, on the basis of saying those who are positive will put their money where their mouth is. The positive types pay up, the cynics won't: that is BS. All I did was point to a past example where a lot of fans, including many skeptical now about the CPL, put out money for a very speculative project, the Voyageurs Cup, on a lark. I was not saying it made us better, just the contrary: I was only trying to show that there is no evidence those hyped about the CPL are more economically committed than those not, based on past experiences. Plenty of total skeptics about the CPL are just as big spenders on local footie as those supposedly its fiercest cheerleaders.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

42 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

... And of course I was vociferous and even more incorrigible back then than I am now, ...

Can remember being accused of being engaged in politically correct baitdom at one point along with you back then, so that part definitely wasn't aimed at you.

On the league thing I think Canada has been very lucky that FIFA allowed us to use USSF sanctioned leagues since the late 1960s and that the geography of having the population spread in a narrow band in an area comparable to London to Tehran makes things very difficult when soccer isn't the top sport and still a marginal niche interest sort of thing. National leagues are much easier to do when you can drive across a country in a couple of hours rather than it taking five or six hours by plane. The major missed opportunity was the NSL in the Windsor-Quebec corridor in the 1970s. More should have been achieved with that as a launching pad with Australia being the obvious parallel but the divide over the ethnic club issue was completely toxic and the legacy of that continues down to the present day in the balkanized way that the sport is administered, which has stunted the growth of semi-pro leagues in the major cities which was Canadian soccer's great strength relative to the United States back in the original NASL era with players like Bob Iarusci using it as the pathway to playing with the Cosmos.

On CanPL I was mildly encouraged by the way there is a visible tip to the iceberg in Surrey, Saskatoon, K/W and especially Halifax (will be interesting to see if the Jim Brennan snippet of info was legit or like Kenny Stamatopolous going to Bayern Munich), but it looks to me like the big moment to make it actually happen may well have back been in September when they were ramping up with a league office staff and it passed because groups like FCE and the Fury weren't gung ho enough about it and they had already effectively sabotaged their chances of ever making it work in numbers terms by not reaching a reasonable compromise with MLSE. Quite telling that some of the main cheerleaders have gone relatively quiet since then. Suspect they now need a few dominoes to fall in terms of agreeing and finalizing pop-up builds and stadium retrofits with municipalities to be in a position to launch and although it's not dead it's far from a done deal. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard