Unofficial CPL fan survey

[Complete Homer]

16 hours ago, dsqpr said:

I think that is a fantastic result for CPL. Hell, the league doesn't even exist yet and MLS has been around for 20 years and current MLS fans plan to support both equally?! What will happen to that number once CPL actually exists?! A football fan pretty much never supports two teams in the same market; MLS is going to be dropped like a hot potato!

To put it another way, only 15% of MLS-market respondents said that CPL wouldn't have an effect on their MLS fandom.  85%, at the very least, are interested in spending some time following CPL, . Obviously this is a bit tilted with ~1/5 respondents being from this board, but with a large number of respondents from MLS subreddits and MLS supporter's groups sites, that's pretty good IMO

Edit: Actually, looking at the subgroup who answered that they are either a "hardcore" MLS fan or consider it their main sport, 2% would switch completely to CPL and consider their old MLS team their rival, 20% would switch to considering CPL their main league but occasionally go to MLS games, 35% would want to support them equally, and 30% would want to go to the occasional CPL game but keep MLS as their main team. That is a lot of good will for a league that has 2 teams in it so far

[1996]

17 hours ago, dsqpr said:

I think that is a fantastic result for CPL. Hell, the league doesn't even exist yet and MLS has been around for 20 years and current MLS fans plan to support both equally?! What will happen to that number once CPL actually exists?! A football fan pretty much never supports two teams in the same market; MLS is going to be dropped like a hot potato!

Yup MLS will be dropped in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver , ya TFC fans for example will all be flocking to Centennial Stadium , a 2000 one sided stadium with football lines to watch Toronto United play the  Winnipeg  Storm lol I can definitely see that it will be like the 1980's all over again and maybe Paul Peschisolido can be United's first DP in the new league can't wait!

[Complete Homer]

9 minutes ago, 1996 said:

Yup MLS will be dropped in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver , ya TFC fans for example will all be flocking to Centennial Stadium , a 2000 one sided stadium with football lines to watch Toronto United play the  Winnipeg  Storm lol I can definitely see that it will be like the 1980's all over again and maybe Paul Peschisolido can be United's first DP in the new league can't wait!

I think he was being facetious. Clearly the MLS teams would maintain the vast majority of their fanbase (ex. only 2% said that they would consider their old MLS team a rival once CPL arrived), but that doesn't mean that they would keep a monopoly.

But do you really not think that, say, a 10k popup in a good location in Toronto would attract its own fanbase? Plenty of people support TFC because it is the only team available and they support the sport in general, clearly there would be a shift in the marketplace if there was a choice, and I think the survey supports that to an extent. 

And, by a decent margin, the most popular answer is that many fans want to support both. I don't think that possibility should be ignored

[1996]

There was a discussion on Sportsnet the Fan 590 here in Toronto on why even though with the success of TFC last year and so far this year that even though with the good crowds at BMO it still feels like Toronto as a whole has still not embraced TFC like they have the Leafs,Jays and even the Raptors, go to Sportsnet soccer and you can hear the discussion and even read the comments by people below the radio program and you will be amazed at what a lot of people still think of TFC and soccer as a whole, therefore now you throw in a second team to the mix and the casual soccer fan or general sports fan will say what, what is this now, the hardcore will get it, but are their enough hardcores that cab sustain another soccer team in Toronto in what  the general sport fan will see as a minor league to an already minor league they view the MLS as. TFC is sustained by the fact they are getting the general sports fans to the game, because if they had to count on only the hardcore soocer fan TFC would have already folded by year 3. Therefore, will enough of the general sports fan go to a CPL game in Toronto or Vancouver or Montreal, that is the question, I think they will in cities with no MLS team but I just can't see it in MLS Canadian cities, the hardcore will go like I said but it's the general sports fan that they will need to get and right now it's not that easy for the three MLS Canadian cities to get them to the stadium, yes they are getting them but they are working their asses off to get them to go.

[Complete Homer]

11 minutes ago, 1996 said:

There was a discussion on Sportsnet the Fan 590 here in Toronto on why even though with the success of TFC last year and so far this year that even though with the good crowds at BMO it still feels like Toronto as a whole has still not embraced TFC like they have the Leafs,Jays and even the Raptors, go to Sportsnet soccer and you can hear the discussion and even read the comments by people below the radio program and you will be amazed at what a lot of people still think of TFC and soccer as a whole, therefore now you throw in a second team to the mix and the casual soccer fan or general sports fan will say what, what is this now, the hardcore will get it, but are their enough hardcores that cab sustain another soccer team in Toronto in what  the general sport fan will see as a minor league to an already minor league they view the MLS as. TFC is sustained by the fact they are getting the general sports fans to the game, because if they had to count on only the hardcore soocer fan TFC would have already folded by year 3. Therefore, will enough of the general sports fan go to a CPL game in Toronto or Vancouver or Montreal, that is the question, I think they will in cities with no MLS team but I just can't see it in MLS Canadian cities, the hardcore will go like I said but it's the general sports fan that they will need to get and right now it's not that easy for the three MLS Canadian cities to get them to the stadium, yes they are getting them but they are working their asses off to get them to go.

See, I'm not sure I agree. TFC exists because a) The owners have been willing to lose money and give the team time to get and maintain traction and b ) The "hardcore" have created an environment that people want to experience. Just because Toronto as a whole isn't a soccer city, doesn't mean that you can't get 40000 out to soccer games over a weekend

Also, 590 is possibly the worst place to listen to soccer news. As a body it is an old guard cast, Jays as the most important sport, etc, which reflects their demographics and the product that they sell (as the Jays main broadcaster).  I remember listening during last year's playoff run and a host claimed TFC had a hard time breaking 10k in stands. Either they don't pay attention or there's an agenda there, I wouldn't take what they say as the gospel

[1996]

17 hours ago, dsqpr said:

I

 

5 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

See, I'm not sure I agree. TFC exists because a) The owners have been willing to lose money and give the team time to get and maintain traction and b ) The "hardcore" have created an environment that people want to experience. Just because Toronto as a whole isn't a soccer city, doesn't mean that you can't get 40000 out to soccer games over a weekend

Also, 590 is possibly the worst place to listen to soccer news. As a body it is an old guard cast, Jays as the most important sport, etc, which reflects their demographics and the product that they sell (as the Jays main broadcaster).  I remember listening during last year's playoff run and a host claimed TFC had a hard time breaking 10k in stands. Either they don't pay attention or there's an agenda there, I wouldn't take what they say as the gospel

For me the more soccer the better I'm a hardcore so if there was another Toronto team in the CPL I would go to some games, still would attend a lot more TFC games but I would attend my share of CPL games, however, it would have to be done right, either in a pop up stadium or a refurbished Lamport Stadium, if they go to a one sided turfed Centennial Stadium or the one sided Ether Shiner Stadium thing wont be that interested. 

[Complete Homer]

Just now, 1996 said:

 

For me the more soccer the better I'm a hardcore so if there was another Toronto team in the CPL I would go to some games, still would attend a lot more TFC games but I would attend my share of CPL games, however, it would have to be done right, either in a pop up stadium or a refurbished Lamport Stadium, if they go to a one sided turfed Centennial Stadium or the one sided Ether Shiner Stadium thing wont be that interested. 

We can agree entirely on that. The fact is, I think a professional experience is more important than the actual on-field quality, and the talk about several markets looking at the pop-up option gives me hope that the people heading up the league are thinking along those lines too

[grasshopper1917]

I listened to the piece on Fan 590. Not living in Toronto I have no idea how accurate it is. Just a couple observations on BMO field from afar:

1) Despite having arguably the top team in the league they can not fill BMO field. On the other hand they are drawing over 25,000 a game which puts them up near the top of MLS.

2) Every kickoff the stadium (with the exception of the supporter section) is about 75% empty. Usually it starts to fill up nicely about 15 minutes in. Then many games people will start filing out at the 75-80 minute mark. I still find it weird that people pay all that money for good lower bowl tickets and then miss half the game. In all fairness though this happens in many places not just BMO field. 

The way I see it soccer in North America has been on a steady up slope but still have a long way to go. I think all 3 MLS clubs in Canada have good support but they have lots of room to grow their popularity in their local markets - I think it is just something that is going to take time.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, dsqpr said:

You do not paint a very rosy picture for the future of TFC 

Compare and contrast what is happening with TFC/MLS and the Argos/CFL in the GTA and I find it very difficult to understand where you are coming from with a comment like that. The final issue that TFC had was demonstrating that it actually could generate its own hometown heroes through its academy system so that it wouldn't need a new Giovinco every few seasons to still be a winning team. That is finally starting to happen.

 

[Complete Homer]

9 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

I listened to the piece on Fan 590. Not living in Toronto I have no idea how accurate it is. Just a couple observations on BMO field from afar:

1) Despite having arguably the top team in the league they can not fill BMO field. On the other hand they are drawing over 25,000 a game which puts them up near the top of MLS.

2) Every kickoff the stadium (with the exception of the supporter section) is about 75% empty. Usually it starts to fill up nicely about 15 minutes in. Then many games people will start filing out at the 75-80 minute mark. I still find it weird that people pay all that money for good lower bowl tickets and then miss half the game. In all fairness though this happens in many places not just BMO field. 

The way I see it soccer in North America has been on a steady up slope but still have a long way to go. I think all 3 MLS clubs in Canada have good support but they have lots of room to grow their popularity in their local markets - I think it is just something that is going to take time

The issue with not having butts in seats at the start of the game is a chronic problem across most sports in Toronto. Sometimes it's legitimately an inefficient security issue, I think it has something to do with the city's overall mentality. I don't think it speaks much about TFC specifically though. 

In regards to have room to grow... absolutely. TFC draws dismal numbers on television, it's still very much a spectacle driven by game-day experience 

[ironcub14]

Interesting convo between the two of you guys Homer and 1996 up there, I agree with both of you guys and think the eventual attendance figures will definitely lie somewhere in between. Well, that's the hope anyways. I've definitely had very similar debates like what the two of you had, on whatsapp and in family gatherings with family and friends who are more mainstream soccer fans in Toronto.

[ironcub14]

And definitely agreed with 1996 that getting general sports fans out to CPL will be a much bigger struggle in the MLS cities.

At the same time, when you have 15% of the CPL survey respondents answering from Toronto, which seems about proportional to its share of population in Canada, I think Toronto and the other 2 MLS cities have to be in play for CPL from Year 1 or very soon after that.

I hope whoever runs CPL Toronto realizes that the "hardcores", which I'll define to be those who support Canadian soccer, and not just Voyageurs in supporter sections or on the forum, will make up a much bigger share of the attendance than it will at TFC games. And that this owner will market and configure his team accordingly. That to me means a downtown location for as many Canadian soccer fans to be able to get to the stadium easily as possible, and if not, on the subway line. And a stadium experience that makes sense.

[Dub Narcotic]

18 hours ago, dsqpr said:

A number of years ago TFC used to sell out every game and it was hard to get tickets. Hence ticket prices that were higher than Manchester United and the incredibly arrogant and infamous "what the market will bear" comment.

People who don't even show up for kick off are not solid support and will vanish when times are tough.

You do not paint a very rosy picture for the future of TFC 

BMO Field has expanded to 30,000 seats from 19,000 seats over the time frame I assume you are referring to. 

[Ivan]

Also, traffic seems to be getting worse and worse, especially for 7 pm starts.  I try and get there an hour before the game and sometimes am lucky to make kickoff.  Really nothing you can do on roads into the city, other than take the cattle car (Go Train).  Getting too old for that.

[MrsC]

18 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

The issue with not having butts in seats at the start of the game is a chronic problem across most sports in Toronto. Sometimes it's legitimately an inefficient security issue, I think it has something to do with the city's overall mentality. I don't think it speaks much about TFC specifically though. 

In regards to have room to grow... absolutely. TFC draws dismal numbers on television, it's still very much a spectacle driven by game-day experience 

A few years ago I went to the Chicago Red Stars opening game because it was Karina LeBlanc's first game with the team. It was a double header following a Chicago Fire game.  Since I was only there for the NWSL game, I showed up 30 minutes into the start of the Fire game.  I was shocked at the number of people just meandering into the stadium.  The Fire have bigger issues now with attendance, but at that game, the stadium was 1/3 full when I arrived and 3/4 full by half time.  I don't think it is an issue unique to Toronto.  Seems to be a North American thing. Only a small number stayed for the NWSL game after so the number of fans that weren't there for the Fire would have been small.

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, MrsC said:

A few years ago I went to the Chicago Red Stars opening game because it was Karina LeBlanc's first game with the team. It was a double header following a Chicago Fire game.  Since I was only there for the NWSL game, I showed up 30 minutes into the start of the Fire game.  I was shocked at the number of people just meandering into the stadium.  The Fire have bigger issues now with attendance, but at that game, the stadium was 1/3 full when I arrived and 3/4 full by half time.  I don't think it is an issue unique to Toronto.  Seems to be a North American thing. Only a small number stayed for the NWSL game after so the number of fans that weren't there for the Fire would have been small.

Good post, the basic European view of American (Can-Am) sports is that people wander around concourses, do not watch, yap a lot, eat even more, and arrive late and leave early. It is in fact the biggest difference between European (and I would dare to say south of the Rio Grande too) and US-Canada. It is just entertainment, and the sports are just part of it all, eating nachos or getting a beer and being late to your seat is at the same status as actually watching. 

But I think this is actually unfair. Last summer I went to a Mariners game in Seattle, vs. Bosox, and I was amazed. Fans sat in their seats and watched every pitch. Few got up. Even the 7th inning stretch was just a stretch. People were intensely into it, and I thought: pretty serious fans. 

At Whitecaps, oddly enough, fans are into arriving last minute lately, maybe because weather is good. Quite a few arrive late, quite a few go early. And I consider Van soccer fans to be knowledgable, they know when the ref is screwing them and appreciate good plays and do not get upset about dumb things. But they do not feel the urgency of results or feel that their team playing is actually transcendent. While fans of even 2nd tier Holland or Greece do in fact feel that way.

For me, a soccer game is like a play or the symphony, or a novel. It is a story with a start and middle and a ending, a storyline, and important things may happen along the way. Which is why in a 0-0 game you don't leave early, because say a midfielder grabs the ball at the centre line and does a 50 metre goal over the keeper's head, and you say: I went to that game, but missed the goal of the year. Or an injury, or a fight, or three posts in the same play. Could not think of anything dumber to miss something of note at a game you actually went to.

[nolando]

52 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

For me, a soccer game is like a play or the symphony, or a novel. It is a story with a start and middle and a ending, a storyline, and important things may happen along the way.

Commentary like this is exactly why I love following you and why, so often, I couldn't agree more.

[1996]

On 2017-05-28 at 4:30 PM, dsqpr said:

I was obviously exaggerating with my "hot potato" comment but I was serious about the demise of MLS in Canada. If CPL manages to get off to a good start then I think it will get steadily stronger and there will be a steady bleed of fans from MLS to CPL -- to the point where MLS in those Canadian markets is no longer profitable. At which point the MLS franchise will be sold.

Yes and I will also hit it big in the lotto win my 100 million dollar. For the Canadian MLS teams to join the CPL in the future, first the CPL would need to still be around, the MLS folds or just goes down in calibre and economically. Let me put it you this way, Glasgow Celtics and Rangers who play in their own domestic league would kill to play in the higher level and way more popular English Premier League but can't , so as long as the MLS stays the higher level League and the richer League the 3 Canadian MLS team ain't going anywhere for a very, very long time if ever, just look at Toronto and their CFL team that has now been struggling for years in Toronto is it because Toronto does not like pointy ball football no, put an NFL team in Toronto and instead of the 12000 that are going to Argo games you will get an easy 60000 to an NFL Toronto team's game. Like I keep saying I'm all for a Canadian league but to think that fans in the big three Canadian MLS cities will eventually abandon their MLS teams for a CPL then you don't know these cities.

[fmfranck]

5 hours ago, 1996 said:

Yes and I will also hit it big in the lotto win my 100 million dollar. For the Canadian MLS teams to join the CPL in the future, first the CPL would need to still be around, the MLS folds or just goes down in calibre and economically. Let me put it you this way, Glasgow Celtics and Rangers who play in their own domestic league would kill to play in the higher level and way more popular English Premier League but can't , so as long as the MLS stays the higher level League and the richer League the 3 Canadian MLS team ain't going anywhere for a very, very long time if ever, just look at Toronto and their CFL team that has now been struggling for years in Toronto is it because Toronto does not like pointy ball football no, put an NFL team in Toronto and instead of the 12000 that are going to Argo games you will get an easy 60000 to an NFL Toronto team's game. Like I keep saying I'm all for a Canadian league but to think that fans in the big three Canadian MLS cities will eventually abandon their MLS teams for a CPL then you don't know these cities.

Actually, I think you're looking at this wrong. People in Vancouver and Montréal probably wont desert their MLS clubs for a long time, but that has less to do with the "cities" themselves and more to do with what these clubs represent to these cities. These clubs were there BEFORE MLS even existed, and have a link to lower league football with their fans. These fans were there through thick and thin. Obviously, the same can't be said of TFC (the link to anything else than MLS, and the longevity of the clubs). People that prefer a more humble and accessible club will go to see the CPL Toronto club. And I think there is enough of these folk to fill out a 5k-10k stadium over time. Especially if you label the club as being 100% Canadian. 

Anyways, a lot of things can change over time. We'll see what happens I guess. 

[ironcub14]

14 hours ago, fmfranck said:

Actually, I think you're looking at this wrong. People in Vancouver and Montréal probably wont desert their MLS clubs for a long time, but that has less to do with the "cities" themselves and more to do with what these clubs represent to these cities. These clubs were there BEFORE MLS even existed, and have a link to lower league football with their fans. These fans were there through thick and thin. Obviously, the same can't be said of TFC (the link to anything else than MLS, and the longevity of the clubs). People that prefer a more humble and accessible club will go to see the CPL Toronto club. And I think there is enough of these folk to fill out a 5k-10k stadium over time. Especially if you label the club as being 100% Canadian. 

Anyways, a lot of things can change over time. We'll see what happens I guess. 

I can't imagine the average attendance of Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto in the A-League in around 2000 or so being more than a fraction of the average attendances in MLS in 2016.

I was a very casual fan of the 86ers going to high school in Vancouver. I do think that the current MLS crowds in the Big 3, while there are roots and mainstay fans from the previous USL incarnations/teams in the current MLS SGs for sure, are far more composed of fans that started following the team because of MLS. And these fans, even if they do support CPL, are pretty unlikely to abandon MLS in droves or such. 

The Scotland analogy is a good one. MLS in the Big 3 will remain as is for a long time, and that really is not a bad thing at all. 

[Gopherbashi]

5 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I can't imagine the average attendance of Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto in the A-League in around 2000 or so being more than a fraction of the average attendances in MLS in 2016.

Wikipedia gives this for the Lynx:

• 1997: 1,538
• 1998: 1,800
• 1999: 2,744
• 2000: 2,620
• 2001: 2,795
• 2002: 1,730
• 2003: 2,652
• 2004: 2,444
• 2005: 2,462
• 2006: 1,551 (USL First Division)
• 2007: 1,198 (4th in PDL)
• 2008: 1,018
• 2009: 500
• 2010: 427
• 2011: 194
• 2012: 106
• 2013: 143
• 2014: 225

Couldn't find anything for VWFC or IMFC.

[fmfranck]

Sorry for the weird formatting, but those are the attendance figures for the Impact from 1993 onwards. You can see the core slowly growing over the years. It was an organical growth. You also have to remember that the Impact were able to draw in 55k in 2009 (CCL games are not calculated in these averages). Even if the crowds were of 5k, 7k or 12k, we have to think that the core support was larger than that. Indeed, season tickets were a pretty small percentage of attendance back then. Individual tickets were cheap, so fans would come to games casually. What I'm saying is that the size of the support base was larger than 12k, because it wasnt the exact same crowd coming to every game (i used to buy half season packages myself).

My overall point here is that the Montréal and Vancouver fans are not as attached to a "product" or to a standard of football (some are), since they supported the club when the product on the field was quite average. I understand that MLS in 2007 was pretty dire compared to 2017 standards, but it was no USL-NASL. Toronto fans would've had that same "link" to their clubs if the situations we're reversed. I'm not saying here that people in Montréal or Vancouver are inherently different, I'm just saying that context makes the Impact and the Whitecaps more intertwined with the city's identity in the collective consciousness. Thats why there is a higher chance, in my estimation, of a CPL team working in Toronto. The fans will have a choice to support the 10 year old franchise of an "american" league, or the brand new franchise of a "canadian" league. Eventhough Montréal and Vancouver are also MLS "franchises", local fans sees them as being more because of their history. 

1993 - Not availaible 1994 - 3,216
1995 - 5,075 1996 - 4,868 1997 - 5,066 1998 - 4,008 1999 – NA 2000 - 2,338 2001 - 2,103               2002 - 5,178               2003 - 7,236               2004 - 9,279
2005 - 11,176               2006 - 11,554               2007 - 11,035               2008 - 12,696               2009 - 12,033               2010 - 12,397               2011 - 11,514

 

[Kent]

9 hours ago, fmfranck said:

Sorry for the weird formatting, but those are the attendance figures for the Impact from 1993 onwards. You can see the core slowly growing over the years. It was an organical growth. You also have to remember that the Impact were able to draw in 55k in 2009 (CCL games are not calculated in these averages). Even if the crowds were of 5k, 7k or 12k, we have to think that the core support was larger than that. Indeed, season tickets were a pretty small percentage of attendance back then. Individual tickets were cheap, so fans would come to games casually. What I'm saying is that the size of the support base was larger than 12k, because it wasnt the exact same crowd coming to every game (i used to buy half season packages myself).

My overall point here is that the Montréal and Vancouver fans are not as attached to a "product" or to a standard of football (some are), since they supported the club when the product on the field was quite average. I understand that MLS in 2007 was pretty dire compared to 2017 standards, but it was no USL-NASL. Toronto fans would've had that same "link" to their clubs if the situations we're reversed. I'm not saying here that people in Montréal or Vancouver are inherently different, I'm just saying that context makes the Impact and the Whitecaps more intertwined with the city's identity in the collective consciousness. Thats why there is a higher chance, in my estimation, of a CPL team working in Toronto. The fans will have a choice to support the 10 year old franchise of an "american" league, or the brand new franchise of a "canadian" league. Eventhough Montréal and Vancouver are also MLS "franchises", local fans sees them as being more because of their history. 

 

Honestly, I want a Toronto team to succeed in Toronto more than most people, but I don't understand the logic here. Toronto didn't support lower level soccer very well before, then supported TFC very well, therefor they will cupport a CPL team very well? Montreal won't support a CPL team because they have supported the Impact regardless of level of play? I'm not sure those same set of facts would lead me to the same conclusion.

[fmfranck]

My logic here is :

Montréal didnt only support the Impact when they moved to MLS (i think its the same for Vancouver). Therefore they are more attached to the club rather than the product on the field. My theory here is, even if the CPL have a tolerable quality of play, most Montrealers will stay loyal to the Impact, because the reason they love the team is not because of MLS or the quality of play on the field, but because they relate to IMFC emotionally. (importance : club identity)

Contrarily, Toronto didnt support lower league football very well. But when they were presented with a truly professional team the support was overwhelming. Who's to say that they won't support a new team if it does things professionnally as well. (importance : product)

Mind you, my point is not the only aspect to consider when trying to calculate future support for CPL clubs in MLS markets. The deeper emotional attachment to the Impact and Whitecaps brands by the locals is ONE factor to consider. To me it's a significant one being an IMFC supporter.  But I'm not saying there is no emotional attachment to TFC, not at all. The roots just go a bit deeper with VWFC and IMFC. 

I find its a similar situation with the proposition of a second team NHL in the GTA. I havent heard people being outraged in Toronto by this proposition. No WAY would that fly in Montréal, no one would support anything other than the Habs. Obviously the sentiment isnt as dramatic for the Impact, but im just saying a future CanPL team has their work cut out for them if they want to the thrive in Montréal. 

[1996]

But a second NHL team in Toronto, the key word is NHL would work it's a no brainer it's a second team playing in the same league and the same level in terms of calibre, a CPL team in Toronto would be like the Marlies who play in a lower calibre league, and history has shown that in Toronto soccer leagues that were not considered top level have drawn flies , see Toronto Lynx and North York Rockets and Toronto Blizzard of the old CSL and A league , leagues that were considered low level leagues.