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CPL new teams speculation

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Disappointing if the league is still stuck with 7 teams next year, particularly when Clanachan had been telling people there would be 8 to 10 teams in first season if we still only get 7 by the time 2nd season - that would suggest that he need never be taken seriously ever again on this sort of thing. The 2nd year they have to build upon what happens in the first year - it will be tougher to maintain interest for the more casual fans who will be seeing the same 6 opponents for their team over and over again, yet the travel costs will remain just as high instead of being reduced with extra teams in place. Perhaps it is too idealistic of me but I really think they need to set aside any differences/bitterness and do what they can get Ottawa in next year, especially since I think it will be in Ottawa's best interests since outside of the V-Cup they seem like such an anonymous, forgotten club by playing in a league with the least amount of attention in North America.

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5 hours ago, narduch said:

A fee ensures that the owners are serious.

It is also fair to current owners who took the risk of launching the league - which was done prior to any large sponsorship deals.  They committed to this thing (stadium builds, player budgets, promotion, etc) prior to knowing there would be millions come forward from the private sector.  It is only fair that giving up their share of that comes with some kind of compensation - funded by the entry fee.

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1 hour ago, Stanley said:

The way Surrey is growing, and it's present size, why such a small seating capacity?

It doesn't seem like the stadium  proposal has professional sports in mind. 2,200 is ideal for large amateur, varsity and high school sporting events.

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8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

FC London's owner has been quoted as saying that the franchise fee is in the millions. 

I'd like to see the quote for that because I've never heard anything from the league or any of the existing teams, or any of the potential expansion teams -- except for this FC London quote -- about a franchise fee. Now, I grant you that is a natural and fair assumption that there be one. But I would have thought we would have heard more rumblings about it -- even knowing that the league is mum on money matters...

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, CanSuffer said:

I'd like to see the quote for that because I've never heard anything from the league or any of the existing teams, or any of the potential expansion teams -- except for this FC London quote -- about a franchise fee. Now, I grant you that is a natural and fair assumption that there be one. But I would have thought we would have heard more rumblings about it -- even knowing that the league is mum on money matters...

I have not seen anything about a franchise fee either. But I have heard Clanachan say CPL is not a franchise based league.

My understanding is that this dollar amount (or whatever the amount) is simply how much a new owner must have available and be willing to commit in order to ensure short to mid term survival of the new club.

Edited by Lofty

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/clanachan-we-are-speaking-with-a-number-of-parties-in-quebec-1.1339314

Tony Marinaro and his over the top attempts to sound stereotypically English are quite difficult to listen to at times. After a long preamble the interesting part of the interview was:

08:08 -- Ottawa Fury for 2020? -- still talking basically, hopes the Fury will be in eventually, their choice at this point in time

09:00 -- will there be eight clubs in 2020? -- non-committal answer {so don't hold your breath would be the obvious take home message from that}

10:00 -- Bunbury in Montreal and Sherbrooke? -- talking to a number of groups, says positive things about Alex Bunbury, desperate for a Quebec team, can't force these things and it has to be done properly

11:50 -- Quebec City? -- same issue two groups being talked to, process has to handle itself, confident but not going to be reckless about bringing the wrong club in

13:00 -- 2021 or 2022? -- wants it to be sooner, but takes two to tango, they are not in complete control of that, depends on organizations that want a club and the facilities that are available.

13:50 -- expansion fee? -- key thing required is where teams will play, fee described as significant rather than enormous and not the main stumbling block from his standpoint, no giant pile of available stadiums where teams can play, talks up Halifax

15:40 onwards mainly about Spruce Meadows and the Cavalry rather than the questions I hoped he was going to ask which would have been about where things stand with Saskatoon, K/W and the Fraser valley and whether there was any truth to the Durham and Saint John speculation.

Are you kidding? You think that's Tony Marinaro doing English impressions? Don't tell anybody but that's Noel Butler and he has a weekly show on TSN690 about soccer called " Oranges at Halftime". AND he's a big supporter of Canadian soccer. BTW he's Irish who grew up in London ( England).

Edited by MtlMario

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15 minutes ago, Lofty said:

My understanding is that this dollar amount (or whatever the amount) is simply how much a new owner must have available and be willing to commit in order to ensure short to mid term survival of the new club.

Yes, I think that's more to the point. It's all about viability. My take is they are looking for a dollar amount and number of years commitment. Guessing at least 5. As well as owners that are "invested" in the concept of growing the game in Canada.

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5 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

It is also fair to current owners who took the risk of launching the league - which was done prior to any large sponsorship deals.  They committed to this thing (stadium builds, player budgets, promotion, etc) prior to knowing there would be millions come forward from the private sector.  It is only fair that giving up their share of that comes with some kind of compensation - funded by the entry fee.

Sorry, but I believe this is totally erroneous reasoning. Fair to the existing teams and fans is ensuring a league of 8, 10 or 12 teams. Fair is ensuring viability for the future, and creating plan Bs, having more clubs. Fair is reducing travelling costs, potentially, and increasing regional rivalries. Fair is raising the overall value of the league by ensuring expansion. 

New teams add value, they do not take it away. Restricting the entrance of value to be miserly with the lower, undervalue--that is shooting yourself in the foot.

Founders' privileges is a misconceived concept in this case, because if they overprice on that basis, and do not expand, the league dies out and they lose their entire investment anyways. The only financially sound option is to expand at near original entry price,, or slightly higher, until reaching the minimum league size, then after that apply the scaling you are talking about. 

IMO, all teams up to 12, or at least 10, should have founders status. Give Saskatoon, Quebec and Laval a clear incentive.

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I think the partnership which got this venture off the ground whilst others took the no-risk wait and see approach (you know the same one that's got us nowhere for 30 years) has to have the greatest say in all this and of course, will have the greatest say in all this.  However....

You can't be short sighted either.  It's all well and good doing your due diligence about who you let in and under what conditions but the league has to grow.  Yes, under the right circumstances.  But they shouldn't be afraid of being at least a little bold.  

That is, after all, what's gotten us here in the 1st place. 

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10 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Disappointing if the league is still stuck with 7 teams next year, particularly when Clanachan had been telling people there would be 8 to 10 teams in first season if we still only get 7 by the time 2nd season - that would suggest that he need never be taken seriously ever again on this sort of thing. The 2nd year they have to build upon what happens in the first year - it will be tougher to maintain interest for the more casual fans who will be seeing the same 6 opponents for their team over and over again, yet the travel costs will remain just as high instead of being reduced with extra teams in place. Perhaps it is too idealistic of me but I really think they need to set aside any differences/bitterness and do what they can get Ottawa in next year, especially since I think it will be in Ottawa's best interests since outside of the V-Cup they seem like such an anonymous, forgotten club by playing in a league with the least amount of attention in North America.

Definitely a disappointment if there isnt at least an 8th team. However, I would rather we wait if it means having sustainable teams. I think the process has been longer than Clanachan/CPL hoped in certain prospective cities. There is simple no point rushing teams and communities that aren't ready or with pre existing player pools to draw from. We dont want teams crashing and burning 5 years down the line.

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4 hours ago, Lofty said:

I have not seen anything about a franchise fee either. But I have heard Clanachan say CPL is not a franchise based league.

My understanding is that this dollar amount (or whatever the amount) is simply how much a new owner must have available and be willing to commit in order to ensure short to mid term survival of the new club.

I think you’ve got it right. 

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5 hours ago, toontownman said:

Definitely a disappointment if there isnt at least an 8th team. However, I would rather we wait if it means having sustainable teams. I think the process has been longer than Clanachan/CPL hoped in certain prospective cities. There is simple no point rushing teams and communities that aren't ready or with pre existing player pools to draw from. We dont want teams crashing and burning 5 years down the line.

So, we did  not wait at all to start the league, we jumped in, we had no idea if any would be sustainable. There was piss all sustainable a year ago. We all rushed, we were not ready, we had no idea of player pools, we thought there were four refs in total in Canada available.

But now, great, we want anyone new to be sustainable, and it has to be just right, and we have to be sure of things. For them. Because for us it made no difference at all.

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8 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

I think you’ve got it right. 

If you listen to that latest interview he specifically talks about the fee when asked and says it is significant rather than enormous or something along those lines, so there definitely is a membership entry fee. Unless or until they have a way for teams to enter through promotion up from district provincial level leagues through a pyramid league system, it is reasonable to talk about franchises rather than clubs. It's not even clear at this point that the promotion and relegation system they talk about as a future aspiration will ever be open to clubs to move up from provincial leagues rather than simply being a case of having a closed league system with a first and second division.

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1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If you listen to that latest interview he specifically talks about the fee when asked and says it is significant rather than enormous or something along those lines, so there definitely is a membership entry fee. Unless or until they have a way for teams to enter through promotion up from district provincial level leagues through a pyramid league system, it is reasonable to talk about franchises rather than clubs. It's not even clear at this point that the promotion and relegation system they talk about as a future aspiration will ever be open to clubs to move up from provincial leagues rather than simply being a case of having a closed league system with a first and second division.

Even if it’s an entry fee rather than a minimum commitment to fund your own club, it isn’t particularly surprising to me, and isn’t really instructive as to the franchise vs club discussion; if there are existing media and sponsorship deals (which there are) its only logical that new clubs should pay the cost of whatever dilution the existing clubs suffer as a result of their entry. This doesn’t make the clubs franchises though, neither does the lack of pro/rel. the terms “franchise” and “club” have specific definitions, “franchise” especially is a legal term of art describing a type of juridic entity and it’s relationship with a licensor. There could be pro/rel with franchises. There could be a league with no pro/rel that isn’t comprised of franchises. 

It’s all about the legal relationship between the constituent entities ‘clubs/franchises’ and the league as a juridic entity. That’s the only factor in deciding whether the clubs are in fact clubs or franchises. I haven’t seen anything from the CPL that indicates a franchisor/franchisee relationship. In fact, the only real information we have on the topic is a statement by the league commissioner indicating that the league isn’t a franchisor and that the clubs aren’t franchises. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Would anyone even care about the semantics of this ill-defined club vs franchise distinction if MLS didn't exist? In a soccer context you clearly have a club structure if new entries to the structure have to start at the bottom in a local league and slowly play their way into the top national league over many years by achieving many promotions on the field of play, while it is not easy to see how you do not have a franchise setup if teams started up completely from scratch get to go straight into the top national tier based primarily on their ability to pay their way in.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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9 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So, we did  not wait at all to start the league, we jumped in, we had no idea if any would be sustainable. There was piss all sustainable a year ago. We all rushed, we were not ready, we had no idea of player pools, we thought there were four refs in total in Canada available.

But now, great, we want anyone new to be sustainable, and it has to be just right, and we have to be sure of things. For them. Because for us it made no difference at all.

Yeah. Not what I said, I didnt mention anything about the existing teams, but thanks for the reaction I will return you knee when I find it. 

Its clear many of the additional rumored teams are far further behind where the existing clubs were to start and for many reasons. 

Halifax was an outlier and comparable to some of the prospective new teams but even then they tested the market and put wheels in motion like they are doing in Saskatchewan. All the other teams had either owners directly invested in the league or existing teams/large active and organized player pools to draw from. That's not a knock on them it's a reality for other places and ownerships potentially without some of that experience or advantage in starting a soccer club.

I'm not downplaying or discrediting those that were there from the start or those that are late to the table. The main thing is that when they get to the table they are at a point they can run sustainably within their community and have operations/markets and a growing player pool that can solidify that. 

It's all frustrating waiting for new teams and "I think" the CPL would have hoped it would be an easier and quicker process than it appears to set them up. Patience and support, not pressure and snobbery is going to help the league grow. Imo.

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14 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Would anyone even care about the semantics of this ill-defined club vs franchise distinction if MLS didn't exist?

I don't care about the semantics or MLS. I'm just saying that a fee for new CPL teams is not something that is substantiated by fact. Yet.

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10 hours ago, CanSuffer said:

I don't care about the semantics or MLS. I'm just saying that a fee for new CPL teams is not something that is substantiated by fact. Yet.

I don't know how this doesn't count as "fact", but it seems like either everyone here disregarded this or didn't see it. Maybe they had BBTB blocked a year ago when this article came out. This is the article he is referring to, and the relevant part is a quote from someone who says they have spoken with the CPL on this.

https://lfpress.com/sports/soccer/will-london-build-a-downtown-sports-stadium-its-a-possibility

“There was the franchise fee, which is in the millions. Then there was the expectation that there would be money lost in the first few years,” Campbell said.

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Posted (edited)

$9 million is the franchise fee that is being quoted quite a bit on Reddit by those who claim inside knowledge, for what it's worth, and this was a response I got on there today when I expressed skepticism about it:

This poster is also skeptical about Saskatoon getting in because he has heard that Joe Belan had a bit of a falling out with the top people involved with CanPL at one point and thinks that he may not be viewed as a welcome addition to the league's collective ownership.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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Again,  the franchise/whatever fee shouldn't matter as I expect it is likely deferred.  It will be payed out of the sponsorship payments which would otherwise have gone to the new club over the next few years.     

It's sort of a financial stress test for potential entrants isn't it?  Removing league funding from their business model.

If you didn't have the means before the league attained sponsorship money to be part of CPL it's just as likely you don't have the means to be part of CPL now.   Not really someone you want involved in this enterprise. 

I speculate of course, and it all must read rather harsh because it is rather harsh.  Still, there it is.  

Just be clear, I think expansion is a top priority for this league and I think certain markets are a top priority for this league.  Speaking of harsh, I also don't believe there is a cookie cutter model that will be applied for every single expansion bid.  If a good bid comes from out of Quebec City for example but it needs a smaller entry fee deferred over a longer time period I think the league needs to keep an open mind.  The CPL itself needs to continue investing in this league to.   

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