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CPL new teams speculation

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5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

By D2, I mean the league that CPL said they would launch post 2026, not D3...that's too big of a gap. There's a need for an in-between league

Okay that makes sense, thanks!

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7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Okay that makes sense, thanks!

No problem.

The more I watch CPL, the more I see the need for that D2 league. You get the sense that CPL as a whole have an idea of where they want to be quality-wise.

Looking at some incomplete rosters and internationals spots not yet filled, some guys that you can tell shouldn't be starters on some teams will get pushed to the bench, and the  bench guys will need somewhere to play that isn't D3 as they get push out over time. The Gold Cup, CCL & CL shows that there's international talent available in CONCACAF that aren't that expensive to acquire if you know where to look.

CPL allows 49% of roster to be foreigners and doesn't trap you at having 6 Canadians at all time. 3 can be sub out to add to the 5 foreigners potentially already on the pitch. Over time, that D2 will indeed be needed for Canadians that won't be able to stay on CPL rosters and in need of that league to prepare them for the Premier league.

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Posted (edited)

Alternatively, they are probably very much serious about being mainly about younger Canadian players and the launch season has shown there is no huge need to bring in lots of imports from clubs nobody has heard of to have a watchable level of soccer or to overspend on bringing back washed up has beens who got a few CMNT caps a few years back.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2019 at 12:52 PM, Rintaran said:

Are we going stadium to downtown of the city they're in, or downtown of the nearest city people from the far end of the country know about? Asking because Pacific is only 2.5 km from downtown Langford. You have to go through either Saanich or View Royal and Esquimalt before finally reaching the city of Victoria and its downtown. ;) 

 @ted Amalgamate already!

Thing about Westhills, it is at the extreme south west of the population core of Greater Victoria. I doubt there are 20,000 west and south-west of Westhills, while east and north-east you have most of the capital region: there are over 250,000 or more east and north-east of the stadium. That is hard, because with no real public transit, you are forcing people to commute to get there. And in Victoria, where many people are tired of commuting in and out, that is a problem. 

For Pacific, at first they tried to sell the idea that they would be a Van Isle team. That would have meant fans coming from up island, they even did promos as far north as Nanaimo. But I would like to see how many fans actually come down from north of the Malahat (for those who don't know, the highway running north, often congested, as its curvy and narrow in sections). 

I know it is terribly unfair to Pacific, and to the effort made, but a team at Royal Athletic in central Victoria, in the midst of older neighbourhoods, with proper additional stands, would right now be drawing 30-40% more fans, as I see it. 3000 at Westhills would be 4000 at RAP.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Thing about Westhills, it is at the extreme south west of the population core of Greater Victoria. I doubt there are 20,000 west and south-west of Westhills, while east and north-east you have most of the capital region: there are over 250,000 or more east and north-east of the stadium. That is hard, because with no real public transit, you are forcing people to commute to get there. And in Victoria, where many people are tired of commuting in and out, that is a problem. 

For Pacific, at first they tried to sell the idea that they would be a Van Isle team. That would have meant fans coming from up island, they even did promos as far north as Nanaimo. But I would like to see how many fans actually come down from north of the Malahat (for those who don't know, the highway running north, often congested, as its curvy and narrow in sections). 

I know it is terribly unfair to Pacific, and to the effort made, but a team at Royal Athletic in central Victoria, in the midst of older neighbourhoods, with proper additional stands, would right now be drawing 30-40% more fans, as I see it. 3000 at Westhills would be 4000 at RAP.

Do you think two teams on the island is unrealistic ? 

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6 hours ago, Ansem said:

Initial 7 are unlikely to have paid that price which was pre-everything. (Mediapor, sponsors, CONCACAF league, etc...)

The $9M could be explained by the Mediapro deal and sponsorships that quite frankly must have exceeded even the league's expectation. The CONCACAF League spot is also very valuable and wasn't expected as well.

The CPL lead up and launch has been more untidy than a Valour back-three but things have come together, and are continuing to come together it seems, rather well.  Better than rather well.  If the powers that be, who've commited themselves to expansion think the market will bare a $9M expansion fee (if this is true) then their track record so far indicates they might have an idea what they're talking about.   

Two thing; 

1st).  No inside knowledge but I believe the expansion franchises which will be announced this fall probably got in at a more bargain price.  Yes, I do suspect that there are as good as done deals out there already. 

2nd).  If the expansion fee is based on league sponsorship revenue then the number shouldn't exclude anyone who wasn't a reasonable candidate earlier this year.  The expansion fee could be deferred, simply paid from the teams stake in that revenue over X number of years.  And we have to keep in mind that this is a salary capped league who's original business model likely didn't include any league revenues.  Just because things have worked out better than expected doesn't change that. 

And it's Year 1.  More sponsorships will be coming on board next year and bring money along with them.

Sorry.  I have a Third thing.

3rd).  No Ottawa Fury in the CPL.  Ever.   

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There's no way its a 9 million expansion fee for a CPL club, that's likely the expected costs for the club expansion fee plus the start up costs/year one budget to get a club up and running for the first season.

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1 hour ago, Reign said:

Do you think two teams on the island is unrealistic ? 

Yes (for the immediate future.)

There should be two teams on the Island in the D3 league they are building but Nanaimo is a long way off from being able to support a CanPL team.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Cheeta said:

...1st).  No inside knowledge but I believe the expansion franchises which will be announced this fall probably got in at a more bargain price.  Yes, I do suspect that there are as good as done deals out there already...

It is actually not clear that any expansion franchises will be announced this year, because the fall would be late in the day to be doing that in terms of building momentum on season ticket sales and corporate interest. For something to happen on a 6 month timeline there also needs to be a viable stadium plan in place and that's usually not easy to do. Saskatoon is the only city where we are seeing the sort of activity you would expect to see less than a year out from the first game. Having said that I would agree that the $9 million figure probably isn't as substantial as it sounds as the year one budget and start up costs are probably included and a large slice of it could simply wind up being a case of not receiving a share of CSB revenues for something like the first decade.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Thing about Westhills, it is at the extreme south west of the population core of Greater Victoria. I doubt there are 20,000 west and south-west of Westhills, while east and north-east you have most of the capital region: there are over 250,000 or more east and north-east of the stadium. That is hard, because with no real public transit, you are forcing people to commute to get there. And in Victoria, where many people are tired of commuting in and out, that is a problem. 

For Pacific, at first they tried to sell the idea that they would be a Van Isle team. That would have meant fans coming from up island, they even did promos as far north as Nanaimo. But I would like to see how many fans actually come down from north of the Malahat (for those who don't know, the highway running north, often congested, as its curvy and narrow in sections). 

I know it is terribly unfair to Pacific, and to the effort made, but a team at Royal Athletic in central Victoria, in the midst of older neighbourhoods, with proper additional stands, would right now be drawing 30-40% more fans, as I see it. 3000 at Westhills would be 4000 at RAP.

I agree, they would draw considerably better at a renovated Royal Athletic. Any sign the of the Harbourcats giving it up anytime soon?

14 hours ago, Reign said:

Do you think two teams on the island is unrealistic ? 

Absolutely unrealistic in the near-to-medium term for D1.

Much like Ted, I can see two D3 teams, one in Victoria & one in Nanaimo surviving fairly well alongside Pacific FC.

I could also see a D1 (Langford/Victoria), D2 (Nanaimo), and two D3s (Saanich & Langford), depending on how everything plays out, post World Cup 2026.

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2 hours ago, Rintaran said:

Any sign the of the Harbourcats giving it up anytime soon?

Nope, and even if they did, I doubt the City of Victoria would put anywhere near the same amount of money into it as Langford is putting into Westhills.

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2 minutes ago, ted said:

Nope, and even if they did, I doubt the City of Victoria would put anywhere near the same amount of money into it as Langford is putting into Westhills.

This is what I expected. So long as the Harbourcats continue at Royal Athletic, there's a close to 0% chance of Pacific moving there. The Harbourcats are well attended, and have games almost every day through the summer.

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20 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

For Pacific, at first they tried to sell the idea that they would be a Van Isle team. That would have meant fans coming from up island, they even did promos as far north as Nanaimo. But I would like to see how many fans actually come down from north of the Malahat (for those who don't know, the highway running north, often congested, as its curvy and narrow in sections). 

Small sample size I know but the STH behind me come down from Nanaimo and they mentioned they wouldn't come if games were in Victoria proper.

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21 hours ago, Cheeta said:

The CPL lead up and launch has been more untidy than a Valour back-three but things have come together, and are continuing to come together it seems, rather well.  Better than rather well.  If the powers that be, who've commited themselves to expansion think the market will bare a $9M expansion fee (if this is true) then their track record so far indicates they might have an idea what they're talking about.   

Two thing; 

1st).  No inside knowledge but I believe the expansion franchises which will be announced this fall probably got in at a more bargain price.  Yes, I do suspect that there are as good as done deals out there already. 

2nd).  If the expansion fee is based on league sponsorship revenue then the number shouldn't exclude anyone who wasn't a reasonable candidate earlier this year.  The expansion fee could be deferred, simply paid from the teams stake in that revenue over X number of years.  And we have to keep in mind that this is a salary capped league who's original business model likely didn't include any league revenues.  Just because things have worked out better than expected doesn't change that. 

And it's Year 1.  More sponsorships will be coming on board next year and bring money along with them.

Sorry.  I have a Third thing.

3rd).  No Ottawa Fury in the CPL.  Ever.   

My only disagreement would be about Ottawa. I think that the management in the front office *cough* *cough* JDG *cough* and others within OSEG need to be sacked to get the relationship with CPL/CSA back on track, no question. But I don't think the team itself should be burned because of the idiotic decisions of the powers that be. 

Like it or not, the Fury are and will still be the best soccer game in town. We need them in on this . . . somehow. 

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Don't get me wrong, absolutely agree, I don't doubt there is going to be a CPL team in Ottawa.  And quite rightly.  Has to be a primary target for this league it's just that l think CPL HQ is waiting for the Fury to die.  Simple as that.

Never know though.  Watch them be the 1st expansion franchise.

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5 hours ago, davey_twelve said:

Small sample size I know but the STH behind me come down from Nanaimo and they mentioned they wouldn't come if games were in Victoria proper.

I know my friend Jacob finds it much more convenient than having to go all the way into Victoria. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Rintaran said:

This is what I expected. So long as the Harbourcats continue at Royal Athletic, there's a close to 0% chance of Pacific moving there. The Harbourcats are well attended, and have games almost every day through the summer.

Hi @Rintaran just want to say. I did an analysis of this last summer, and I think it shows  you are mistaken: RAP can be shared. Instead of looking at the big picture and not breaking it down, you just have to analyze the details. And they show that most certainly RAP could be shared with the Harbourcats. 

Here is what I wrote in May 2018, on the Victoria CPL thread. But just to articulate part of the idea as stated, taking the present season schedule, 6 of the 14 home games would be played after the Harbourcats season has ended, so zero interference. Four were played before the baseball team's season started. Meaning with current schedule, 10 of 14 home matches would not involve any changeover at all. So four (five with Voyageurs Cup) changes in a season, is that not feasible?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let me just make the argument for Royal Athletic a bit better. 

First, as mentioned, it is close to the downtown, fairly central, and easy access. 

Second, it has more tradition as a sports venue, and had PDL soccer a few years ago. 

Next, it has over 3000 seats as is. The configuration is not 100% baseball, as there is a long stand centered on the soccer pitch, basically 1st base line. Covered. Then some extension to what would be first base line to the outfield, not covered. Then the baseball stand behind home plate, covered in the middle, not on the sides. So it already has a basic convertible baseball-soccer set up in terms of stands. 

The entire opposite side could be adapted with temporary or more permanent stands for soccer. The wiki says it could go up to 10,000.

Fourth, the pitch is quite nice, grass.

Fifth, the HarbourCats baseball season is last week of May to early August. So basically, if you started mid April, you could have the set up a month, then after the second week of August, it is all yours too. I just looked at the Harbourcats schedule, of that 10 week season, just half they are playing away on weekends. So potentially you are not even in direct conflict, but would have to convert those times.

Conclusion: my impression is that the City of Langford has moved more aggressively, with greater vision, in seeing their stadium investment plays out. Though I have no idea if Victoria stalled, rejected, or was simply slow on the uptake.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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Rather than worry about promotion/relegation, D1/D2/D3, or population, demographics, distance to downtown, etc... does anyone have any idea if we should be expecting any announcements about actual new teams for next season??

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42 minutes ago, narduch said:

Its not looking good for new teams. Figure they would want to announce it by now to get ready.

I would be ok if they just get to 8, hopefully the Fury are forced to join. 

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OFFC won't be in CPL next season if they're intent on staying in USL.  Legal fights take time to resolve, as does actually joining a new league - and it's not as if OFFC won't be dragging their feet if they don't want to go.

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Technically true but Port City FC had been admitted into the CSA in early May and was known to be playing in Langford pending the outcome of the hydro pole saga given Surrey clearly wasn't happening. Can understand why people see Westhills Stadium as less than ideal, but it's possible the league would not have launched yet, if it hadn't become available.

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