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CPL new teams speculation

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I see one team in Saskatoon before one in Regina. They'll have a fanbase that doesn't have to travel for summer sports entertainment.

I could see CanPL trying to stabilize the National and Regional leagues concurrently, with the eventual goal of instituting of Pro-Rel in a couple of decades. I think regional leagues should have at least 8 clubs in them, preferably more. L1O has 16 men's teams while PLSQ has 9 men's teams. If they can get 8 clubs each in a BC and Prairie League, we just might have something. Would it be too much to expect to have BC, Alberta, Prairies, Ontario, Quebec, and Maritimes Regional Leagues? Or would 4 Leagues be more viable, rolling the Maritimes and Prairies into the Quebec and Alberta Leagues respectively?

So a 12-16 team national League and four 8-16 team regional leagues - that would require 34-80 clubs nationwide. I don't see many of the regional clubs being viable nationally, but it only takes two or three to be chomping at the bit to play against the big boys to start implementing pro-rel.

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On 7/1/2019 at 11:00 PM, Kent said:

Real question. Are Wanderers the only team to have either of...

1. A new stadium
2. A downtown stadium

Which teams have either of these? Obviously some have renovated stadiums, but I think Wanderers are the only one with a new stadium to draw some interest from potential fans. Are there any others that are considered to be downtown?

These 2 things seemed to be the big difference makers in MLS, and it wouldn't surprise me if they proved to be key in the CPL as well.

Was curious myself so I checked using Google Maps. Simply typed the name of the stadium and downtown of the city. Note that I used Victoria for Pacific and Toronto for York

Halifax 950m
Edmonton 3.3km
Forge 3.4km
Valour 10.9km
Pacific 19.1km
Cavalry 21.6km
York 22.1km

There does seem to be some correlation. Outliers seem to be Cavalry (probably because they are doing so well) and Edmonton (not sure)

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47 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

Was curious myself so I checked using Google Maps. Simply typed the name of the stadium and downtown of the city. Note that I used Victoria for Pacific and Toronto for York

Halifax 950m
Edmonton 3.3km
Forge 3.4km
Valour 10.9km
Pacific 19.1km
Cavalry 21.6km
York 22.1km

There does seem to be some correlation. Outliers seem to be Cavalry (probably because they are doing so well) and Edmonton (not sure)

Are we going stadium to downtown of the city they're in, or downtown of the nearest city people from the far end of the country know about? Asking because Pacific is only 2.5 km from downtown Langford. You have to go through either Saanich or View Royal and Esquimalt before finally reaching the city of Victoria and its downtown. ;) 

 @ted Amalgamate already!

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11 minutes ago, Rintaran said:

Are we going stadium to downtown of the city they're in, or downtown of the nearest city people from the far end of the country know about? Asking because Pacific is only 2.5 km from downtown Langford. You have to go through either Saanich or View Royal and Esquimalt before finally reaching the city of Victoria and its downtown. ;) 

 @ted Amalgamate already!

I put that in the heading

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14 minutes ago, Rintaran said:

Are we going stadium to downtown of the city they're in, or downtown of the nearest city people from the far end of the country know about? Asking because Pacific is only 2.5 km from downtown Langford. You have to go through either Saanich or View Royal and Esquimalt before finally reaching the city of Victoria and its downtown. ;) 

 @ted Amalgamate already!

I could say that Cavalry is 2.7km from Silverado, but I don't think that is especially helpful

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Just now, deschamp86 said:

I put that in the heading

So you did. My bad.

I was kinda just pointing out that just asking "downtown" is a pretty bad reference given the "regional" nature of some of the teams.

The Cavalry example only adds to that (do you have to go through Silverado on the way to Calgary?)

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Initial B said:

I see one team in Saskatoon before one in Regina. They'll have a fanbase that doesn't have to travel for summer sports entertainment.

I could see CanPL trying to stabilize the National and Regional leagues concurrently, with the eventual goal of instituting of Pro-Rel in a couple of decades. I think regional leagues should have at least 8 clubs in them, preferably more. L1O has 16 men's teams while PLSQ has 9 men's teams. If they can get 8 clubs each in a BC and Prairie League, we just might have something. Would it be too much to expect to have BC, Alberta, Prairies, Ontario, Quebec, and Maritimes Regional Leagues? Or would 4 Leagues be more viable, rolling the Maritimes and Prairies into the Quebec and Alberta Leagues respectively?

So a 12-16 team national League and four 8-16 team regional leagues - that would require 34-80 clubs nationwide. I don't see many of the regional clubs being viable nationally, but it only takes two or three to be chomping at the bit to play against the big boys to start implementing pro-rel.

Good post, but I can't help but feel that rolling up the Maritimes and Praries into Quebec and Alberta is not going to work with the scale of travel.

These D3 teams would face a monumental trip from Winnipeg to Calgary, or Cape Breton to Gatineau. It's not realistic given the budgets they'd have.

After BC and Alberta launch their leagues, I think we are good. That captures roughly 85% of the country. It's a great start, to be fair. 

We don't want these D3 leagues to simply survive - we want them to thrive! We certainly don't want to weigh them down with travel. 

Not sure what we do about the hinterlands. Perhaps attempt a Maritimes league and a Sasktoba league. Designate them as D4 and see how they do.

If they prove stable, you can elevate their status to d3 and/or attempt that merger you are talking about.

Edited by Obinna

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Obinna said:

Perhaps attempt a Maritimes league and a Sasktoba league.

I feel like someone should start a poll to see what is the preferred naming for this hypothetical league. Sasktoba or Manitchewan.

Edited by Kent
I spelled the wrong pole/poll.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, deschamp86 said:

Was curious myself so I checked using Google Maps. Simply typed the name of the stadium and downtown of the city. Note that I used Victoria for Pacific and Toronto for York

Halifax 950m
Edmonton 3.3km
Forge 3.4km
Valour 10.9km
Pacific 19.1km
Cavalry 21.6km
York 22.1km

There does seem to be some correlation. Outliers seem to be Cavalry (probably because they are doing so well) and Edmonton (not sure)

I can confirm that looks accurate for Valour. IGF is inside the U of Manitoba and is indeed about 10k from downtown.

IGF is also quite new (opened in 2013) and my sense is that casual fans might be attracted to the idea of watching "something" there. Although, as a footy fan, I can say that the match day experience would be much better in a 10k or so football-specific stadium, where there would be fans on all four sides and a roof that retains the impressive noise being generated by the trench but at IGF is apparently inaudible in the sections near the opposite end.

Edited by Lofty

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48 minutes ago, Kent said:

I feel like someone should start a pole to see what is the preferred naming for this hypothetical league. Sasktoba or Manitchewan.

I feel like we have enough of our own problems to deal with already that Manitoba shouldn't be forced into adopting the red headed step child of Canada.  Isn't it enough already that we're immediately downwind?

And Manitchewan* is already taken, pal. 

* A closed sandwich consisting of toasted light rye bread spread with garlic butter (interior faces only) with a filling, from top to bottom, consisting of: raw yellow onion, warm mac & cheese, and topped with a spread of HP sause or alternatively, French's Ketchup, sea salt & black pepper.  Usually served with a side of sour cream & onion potato chips and a kosher pickle, whole, uncut.

 

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3 hours ago, Kent said:

I feel like someone should start a pole to see what is the preferred naming for this hypothetical league. Sasktoba or Manitchewan.

I'd call it "Saskatoba", as it rolls of the tongue better than "Sasktoba".

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From Quebec Soccer's July edition

According to Quebec Soccer Federation's president Pierre Marchand, it costs $9 Million to buy a CPL franchise. That seems expansive according to him. He thinks Quebec City is the best place to put a CPL team with the PEPS that can host 10,000 people. He also mentions that Bunbury talks a lot, but he's no Patrice Bernier in terms of being known in the province.

 

I personally didn't know Bunbury was from Quebec until Marc Tougas wrote about him. So, how would a multimillionaire listen to Bunbury? 

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20 hours ago, Initial B said:

I see one team in Saskatoon before one in Regina. They'll have a fanbase that doesn't have to travel for summer sports entertainment.

I could see CanPL trying to stabilize the National and Regional leagues concurrently, with the eventual goal of instituting of Pro-Rel in a couple of decades. I think regional leagues should have at least 8 clubs in them, preferably more. L1O has 16 men's teams while PLSQ has 9 men's teams. If they can get 8 clubs each in a BC and Prairie League, we just might have something. Would it be too much to expect to have BC, Alberta, Prairies, Ontario, Quebec, and Maritimes Regional Leagues? Or would 4 Leagues be more viable, rolling the Maritimes and Prairies into the Quebec and Alberta Leagues respectively?

So a 12-16 team national League and four 8-16 team regional leagues - that would require 34-80 clubs nationwide. I don't see many of the regional clubs being viable nationally, but it only takes two or three to be chomping at the bit to play against the big boys to start implementing pro-rel.

Yeah 9M seems steep at this point. It also probably means we will never see Pro/Rel. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Kwar said:

I'd call it "Saskatoba", as it rolls of the tongue better than "Sasktoba".

 

11 hours ago, Bison44 said:

As a guy who lives just inside the border in MB, but works in SK, there is only the one option......Sasktoba.  

The last few years that the CSA ran the National All-Star Championships, an annual youth tournament that pitted provincial teams against one another, they merged Atlantic Canada into a single select team. They did likewise to Manitoba and Saskatchewan and that team, if memory serves me correct, was actually called Sasktoba, with the name clearly stated on jerseys, track suits and all. This dates to whatever year Jordan Hamilton was an U-15, as I watched his Ontario in that same edition. I believe it was 2013.

I checked on the CSA website and apparently they don't run this program now. All I see is the Toyota National Championship (club nationals) and Canadian Championships (V's cup). Perhaps they (Herdman) phased it out with the Excel Program. Sad to see strictly from a nostalgic point of view, having played in it twice in U-15 and U-17. As a young player, it gave me the chance to play against and watch some great players who would go on to represent the national team, but it really had a lot of flaws. The smaller provinces would get regularly get beat up on by the big 4, which resulted in a lot of bunkering. I am sure that's why they created a Team Atlantic and Team Sasktoba, in order to make it more competitive.

This was a very long winded way of saying that Sasktoba was an actual thing for a brief moment in time :)

Edited by Obinna

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17 hours ago, Obinna said:

....These D3 teams would face a monumental trip from Winnipeg to Calgary, or Cape Breton to Gatineau. It's not realistic given the budgets they'd have....

...and that the players would have regular jobs and would be in relationships so hence would have limited leisure time available in which to participate in this level of soccer. Anything more than 1 hour happening regularly each way to away games starts to be a major issue with the players in that sort of context. There already are provincial leagues in BC (PCSL), Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba so it's not at all clear why there is a need to form any new leagues. Answers for why there may be a perceived need to do this and not simply use promotion and relegation from and to the best local district amateur leagues can be directed to the Society for Becoming Apoplectic over Team Names such as Sporting Khalsa or Lethbridge Croatia.

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2 hours ago, Reign said:

Yeah 9M seems steep at this point. It also probably means we will never see Pro/Rel. 

You can still do pro/rel but there are ways to protect CPL clubs initial investments like it's being done elsewhere around the world

1st version

  1. No "automatic" promotion or relegation
  2. Have Pro/rel playoffs (could be bottom CPL vs. Top D2), depending on the result, nothing changes or they swap
  3. CPL bottom team will beneficiate from the head start, if you lose to D2, you deserve relegation in my opinion

 

When D2 is at a better level on the pitch, finances and infrastructure, then you change your pro/rel formula

2nd version

  1. Bottom CPL clubs enters a playoffs round with the D2 clubs.
  2. Winner (perhaps "and" finalists) claim the CPL spot in play

 

When D2 clubs closed the gap enough

3rd version

  1. Automatic relegation
  2. D2 Promotion playoff

 

There needs to be a "progressive approach to "Pro/rel"

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1 minute ago, Ansem said:

You can still do pro/rel but there are ways to protect CPL clubs initial investments like it's being done elsewhere around the world

1st version

  1. No "automatic" promotion or relegation
  2. Have Pro/rel playoffs (could be bottom CPL vs. Top D2), depending on the result, nothing changes or they swap
  3. CPL bottom team will beneficiate from the head start, if you lose to D2, you deserve relegation in my opinion

 

When D2 is at a better level on the pitch, finances and infrastructure, then you change your pro/rel formula

2nd version

  1. Bottom CPL clubs enters a playoffs round with the D2 clubs.
  2. Winner (perhaps "and" finalists) claim the CPL spot in play

 

When D2 clubs closed the gap enough

3rd version

  1. Automatic relegation
  2. D2 Promotion playoff

 

There needs to be a "progressive approach to "Pro/rel"

Maybe I’m missing your point, but I don’t see where the initial investment is protected. Even if you aren’t automatically relegated and you get relegated do to playoff you don’t get your 9M back you paid to play in D1. Expansion fees generally climb as the league grows as well. Maybe the 14th team is asked for 20M. 

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1 minute ago, Reign said:

Maybe I’m missing your point, but I don’t see where the initial investment is protected. Even if you aren’t automatically relegated and you get relegated do to playoff you don’t get your 9M back you paid to play in D1. Expansion fees generally climb as the league grows as well. Maybe the 14th team is asked for 20M. 

All the investors were warned that pro/rel was coming. By starting a club, they know full well the risks. However they get a valuable head start which means that in my first version of pro/rel, it would be a daunting task for a Charlottetown club to knock Valour out of CPL.

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1 minute ago, Ansem said:

All the investors were warned that pro/rel was coming. By starting a club, they know full well the risks. However they get a valuable head start which means that in my first version of pro/rel, it would be a daunting task for a Charlottetown club to knock Valour out of CPL.

Okay but do we know if the initial 7 teams paid anything close to 9M ? I doubt it. If they did then I guess investors are willing to take that risk. Otherwise I feel like it’s going to be harder to get new clubs when you are asking for a huge initial investment while they will also have less time to cement their self as a D1 team. 

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5 minutes ago, Reign said:

Okay but do we know if the initial 7 teams paid anything close to 9M ? I doubt it. If they did then I guess investors are willing to take that risk. Otherwise I feel like it’s going to be harder to get new clubs when you are asking for a huge initial investment while they will also have less time to cement their self as a D1 team. 

Initial 7 are unlikely to have paid that price which was pre-everything. (Mediapor, sponsors, CONCACAF league, etc...)

The $9M could be explained by the Mediapro deal and sponsorships that quite frankly must have exceeded even the league's expectation. The CONCACAF League spot is also very valuable and wasn't expected as well.

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10 minutes ago, Reign said:

Okay but do we know if the initial 7 teams paid anything close to 9M ? I doubt it. If they did then I guess investors are willing to take that risk. Otherwise I feel like it’s going to be harder to get new clubs when you are asking for a huge initial investment while they will also have less time to cement their self as a D1 team. 

5M was the number that was often mentioned for how much it cost to launch a franchise in the league's first season. This was often mistaken on here for an annual budget leading to all kinds of weird and wonderful predictions about player budgets, but there is known to have been a franchise fee running into the millions. The justification for the extra 4M at this point would be to compensate the original seven for taking a slice of league revenues and sponsorships over the next decade or so.

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@Ansem when you say D2, are you referring to L1O or PLSQ? I don't think any of these clubs will organically grow financially to the point where they can engage in CPL-level travel. 

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53 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@Ansem when you say D2, are you referring to L1O or PLSQ? I don't think any of these clubs will organically grow financially to the point where they can engage in CPL-level travel. 

By D2, I mean the league that CPL said they would launch post 2026, not D3...that's too big of a gap. There's a need for an in-between league

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