CPL new teams speculation

[Kent]

14 hours ago, ktf said:

If the CPL is ultimately okay with 6k to 15k stadiums and fanbases being kind of the norm ...

As for the amount of teams by 2026, I would be incredibly disappointed with 12 or less. We have 7 teams that can hopefully all make it...

I can see how, even looking at it pessimistically, there are an easy 5 teams to expect over the next 3-4 years let aone eight.

So you are talking about a 6k to 15k fanbase range, and you are talking about a pessimistic case, but also assuming that all 7 current teams can make it? Sorry to be that guy, but 5 of the 7 teams are currently under that 6k lower bound. Even if we round up for Halifax whose support has been awesome, we still have York 9 at just over 4k (with only their season opener counted so far), FC Edmonton at 4k, and Pacific and Cavalry at a bit above 3k. I would argue you aren't really giving a pessimistic viewpoint.

I do hope you are right though and we have all of our original 7 teams and 5 or more expansion teams all doing well in 7 years. I just call that the optimistic scenario, rather than the pessimistic scenario.

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

Beirne and Clanachan telling him to put a lid on it haha

Actually, he is working for the league. The CPL wants him out there doing this, they use his character to their advantage. 

As if Bunbury, who was at every trial and is in all the early CPL videos, was some maverick out there doing stuff the CPL does not know about. I bet he has daily conversations with the CPL brass.

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, Ansem said:

I'm surprised it took them that long to get him in line. Bettman doesn't tolerate stuff like that hahaha...

But yeah, I'm sure the process is very professional and by the book but his use of social media wasn't and must have forced the league to intervene...started to look amateurish 

Wrong, as I have just posted. He is working with the league, has been paid by them even to rep them, and is the one doing the core leg-work. 

If you think the teams in Québec are not going to be in good part to his credit you are mistaken, I am sure he has been in total harmony with the CPL on this from day one. 

Another thing is if you think that one guy creating buzz and making contacts is incomptabible with a lawyer writing up documents and others doing due financial diligence.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

10 hours ago, An Observer said:

Yeah. Usually the NDA requires you not to disclose there is an NDA

From what i remember Paul Beirne did disclose that there were NDAs in place for the first batch of applicants, but that was only in general terms and I guess you are OK as long as you don't disclose who the other parties are. The timing makes this look very much like a gag order on Alex Bunbury after the tweet involving Vincenzo Guzzo and the fall out from it, but there's not enough info in the public domain to really be sure what's going on. The more optimistic take would be that there is something solid enough happening that an NDA was the logical next step for the would be investors involved.

I suspect if anything was hugely imminent in Laval and/or Quebec City we would have heard about stadium related matters from other sources by now like we did in Surrey, Saskatoon, Regina, Halifax and Langford when there were active negotiations under way related to 2018 or 2019 and that 2021 is now by far the more likely timeline on expansion anywhere other than Saskatoon and Ottawa (in the apparently unlikely event that the Fury change their mind). Time will tell.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ams1984]

10 hours ago, Kent said:

So you are talking about a 6k to 15k fanbase range, and you are talking about a pessimistic case, but also assuming that all 7 current teams can make it? Sorry to be that guy, but 5 of the 7 teams are currently under that 6k lower bound. Even if we round up for Halifax whose support has been awesome, we still have York 9 at just over 4k (with only their season opener counted so far), FC Edmonton at 4k, and Pacific and Cavalry at a bit above 3k. I would argue you aren't really giving a pessimistic viewpoint.

I do hope you are right though and we have all of our original 7 teams and 5 or more expansion teams all doing well in 7 years. I just call that the optimistic scenario, rather than the pessimistic scenario.

Because this league’s expenditure is pretty low and it’s clubs’ operating budgets are low, 4,000 fans is enough to ‘make it’ (I assume by that we mean not go bust). Honestly, they’re probably all close to breaking even given the broadcast deal and multiple large corporate sponsors on board already. I’m also willing to bet that the various owners all counted on losing money for the first few years, so even if there is a deficit for now, it’s not a big deal. 

[Ansem]

Next test game for Saskatoon will be against Vancouver Whitecaps U23 

 

[dyslexic nam]

They are really pushing forward.  Good to see. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Think that's the opponent they needed to really test the waters. If I were them I would want to round things off with a game against a CanPL team  in the early fall as the way to launch a season ticket drive. They might talk in terms of it being a learning process, taking a few years to build etc, but this looks like a case of gearing up for a 2020 launch if the support is there.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[narduch]

So has Bunbury been focused mainly on Quebec Province expansion?

My guess is that after the Guzzo news this means Quebec City is closer?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Alex Bunbury is from St Leonard In Montreal originally so he was mainly working on a Montreal area team by all accounts.

[ktf]

On 6/6/2019 at 7:03 AM, Kent said:

So you are talking about a 6k to 15k fanbase range, and you are talking about a pessimistic case, but also assuming that all 7 current teams can make it? Sorry to be that guy, but 5 of the 7 teams are currently under that 6k lower bound. Even if we round up for Halifax whose support has been awesome, we still have York 9 at just over 4k (with only their season opener counted so far), FC Edmonton at 4k, and Pacific and Cavalry at a bit above 3k. I would argue you aren't really giving a pessimistic viewpoint.

I do hope you are right though and we have all of our original 7 teams and 5 or more expansion teams all doing well in 7 years. I just call that the optimistic scenario, rather than the pessimistic scenario.

Ams1984 said it pretty well. It is a low expenditure league, and even with questions/concerns that are current for some teams, it is mostly on a positive trajectory. I said 6k to 15k as the longer term goal for attendance, not the present. For each team, if they can fix hitches, improve marketing, and just build upon their season ticket base each year, there is no reason in 4-5 years each team can't be in that range.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Think the key point on this is that the league will cut its cloth to fit the prevailing conditions where crowds are concerned and are unlikely to run at a seven figure loss per team to fit some preordained masterplan if there is a lower budget way to operate at close to break even. I strongly suspect an adjustment of that type was already made in response to the membership sales they had obtained and that's why the rumoured player salary cap dropped substantially.

The only franchise of the seven that looks a bit questionable on actual attendance at the moment is York 9, but that was always likely to happen and the league and investors will almost definitely have been aware of that since at least as far back as last summer when only a trickle of memberships were being sold. The rest appear to be capable of drawing 3000 or so paid or higher and that's a reasonable enough base to build from. Having Halifax doing so well should help to drive expansion in smaller markets like Saskatoon.

[Viruk42]

On 6/5/2019 at 11:38 AM, Initial B said:

Someone up thread said that pro-rel works in europe because there was a problem to solve: too many teams. Canada has it's own problem to solve with Pro-Rel: too much space.

There might be some ways around this issue though. One thing I've been wondering about, in part because we already have the spring/fall league split, is a sort of half-pro/rel. Let's say there's 24 teams across the country, split into three regions of 8 (presumably west/central/east). Play a first half season where each region plays itself home-home, so you get 14 games each. If you finish near the top, you're "promoted" and put in a national league for the second half, to play for the championship. There's different options at that point admittedly, whether the 24 teams are split in two national leagues (which still reduces travel costs, only having national travel for half the year) or maybe only the top 2 in each region are promoted, leaving the bottom 6 to continue regional play.

Either way, it could enhance regional rivalries, decrease travel costs, provide that hope of "promotion" and fear of "relegation", while also keeping teams competitive. So for instance, this point:

On 6/5/2019 at 10:51 PM, Kent said:

Part way through the 2012 season while sitting through another hopeless loss (2011 and 2012 were their two worst seasons ever I think) I found myself wishing they could have been relegated after their 2011 season so that they would have a chance of being competitive in a lower level league the following season. Going through back to back horrible seasons seems worse to me than going through a horrible season, being relegated and then having a middle of the table type of season. At least you get to see a few wins in person as a season ticket holder in the second season.

would be mitigated. You might get destroyed by some stronger teams in the first half, but then you're hopefully facing more equal teams in the second half and can even sneak your way to a lesser title.

I'm sure there are flaws with the idea, but it's something I've been mulling over and figured it'd be worth writing down 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Viruk42

[Rintaran]

14 hours ago, Viruk42 said:

There might be some ways around this issue though. One thing I've been wondering about, in part because we already have the spring/fall league split, is a sort of half-pro/rel. Let's say there's 24 teams across the country, split into three regions of 8 (presumably west/central/east). Play a first half season where each region plays itself home-home, so you get 14 games each. If you finish near the top, you're "promoted" and put in a national league for the second half, to play for the championship. There's different options at that point admittedly, whether the 24 teams are split in two national leagues (which still reduces travel costs, only having national travel for half the year) or maybe only the top 2 in each region are promoted, leaving the bottom 6 to continue regional play.

Either way, it could enhance regional rivalries, decrease travel costs, provide that hope of "promotion" and fear of "relegation", while also keeping teams competitive. So for instance, this point:

would be mitigated. You might get destroyed by some stronger teams in the first half, but then you're hopefully facing more equal teams in the second half and can even sneak your way to a lesser title.

I'm sure there are flaws with the idea, but it's something I've been mulling over and figured it'd be worth writing down 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Remember the Duanne Rollins Fantasy League?

I seem to remember it being split very much in this way. Regional Leagues to start, with top 8 teams qualifying to the A-League, and others to a 2-division (East/West) B-League. There were 10-teams in either B-league, but this could easily be 8-team.

At the end of the season we had playoffs with the top-2 from from B-East & B-West entered in the first round with the bottom 4 from A. The top-4 from A entered in the 2nd round. Two-leg aggregate.

So in the end, you had a winner for each league, plus a champion from a final series of playoffs. 

@Gopherbashi never ended up presenting the possibility of a 2nd season, so the pro/rel aspect (as originally presented) never came into play. I would've just preferred a reset: Regional Spring, A & B league Fall, Final Cup competition.

This sounds similar to what you're proposing, and I kinda liked the format.

IRL: With an annual reset to Regionals, I would shorten the playoffs by excluding the bottom 4 from A-league. But other than that, a Regional Spring, and National/Divisional Fall leagues would work well and ensure we have representation from across the country in the A-league.

 

 

Also, having pronounced B-East and B-West out loud as Beast and Best would be hilarious. We would need better names for those leagues.

 

[deschamp86]

14 hours ago, Viruk42 said:

Play a first half season where each region plays itself home-home, so you get 14 games each. If you finish near the top, you're "promoted" and put in a national league for the second half, to play for the championship. There's different options at that point admittedly, whether the 24 teams are split in two national leagues (which still reduces travel costs, only having national travel for half the year) or maybe only the top 2 in each region are promoted, leaving the bottom 6 to continue regional play.

I think this is a good idea in theory, however it would probably be a scheduling nightmare, especially for teams that don't own their own stadium

[Rintaran]

1 minute ago, deschamp86 said:

I think this is a good idea in theory, however it would probably be a scheduling nightmare, especially for teams that don't own their own stadium

Valid point. Having experience as an event planner, I can tell you that booking venues, especially during the summer, can be insane.

Given the switch of teams from regional to national/divisional, it wouldn't even be possible to pre-book the home matches for that 2nd season (as significant overlap is possible).

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

More from Alex Bunbury despite the NDA:

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2019/06/11/la-premiere-ligue-canadienne-lorgne-quebec

My French is far from fluent but looks like it is probably more about Quebec City now than Laval.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ams1984]

35 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

More from Alex Bunbury despite the NDA:

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2019/06/11/la-premiere-ligue-canadienne-lorgne-quebec

My French is far from fluent but looks like it is probably more about Quebec City now than Laval.

This bit stands out...

“À Québec, cette nouvelle équipe pourrait élire domicile au stade TELUS de l’Université Laval qui contient 12 817 places assises. La CPL exige que ses franchises évoluent sur un terrain pouvant accueillir un minimum de 6000 personnes...”

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

I think the direct quote from Bunbury just after that was particularly noteworthy in that it specifically mentioned the possibility of using the Laval University varsity football stadium that people always speculate about, but people should note the cautionary part about there being no guarantee that the team will be born:

« Le stade de l'Université Laval serait intéressant pendant quelques années, après quoi on pourrait penser à bâtir un nouveau stade. C'est très excitant, mais il n'y a aucune garantie pour l'instant que l'équipe verra le jour », a précisé Bunbury, qui possède un club de troisième division au Portugal.

[Ansem]

56 minutes ago, Ams1984 said:

This bit stands out...

“À Québec, cette nouvelle équipe pourrait élire domicile au stade TELUS de l’Université Laval qui contient 12 817 places assises. La CPL exige que ses franchises évoluent sur un terrain pouvant accueillir un minimum de 6000 personnes...”

He added that they could build a new stadium after a few years at Telus

He also ends by saying there's no guarantee that there will be a team.

[Gopherbashi]

"In Quebec, this new team could take up residence at Université Laval's TELUS stadium, which holds 12,817 seats. CPL requires its franchises to operate on land that can accommodate a minimum of 6000 people ... "

For those who don't feel like translating French.

[nfitz]

On 6/12/2019 at 9:48 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

My French is far from fluent but looks like it is probably more about Quebec City now than Laval.

Was it ever about playing in the city of Laval? If the plan is to have a Quebec City team at Laval University (which is in Quebec City), perhaps there was only ever one serious Quebec team in the offing, not two? (gosh, I hadn't realized that they'd amalgamated Sainte-Foy into Quebec City!)

(But I'm pretty ignorant on the issue - I'm just throwing it out there after reading this artcle)

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Alex Bunbury was definitely talking about Laval the suburban city next to Montreal as being his main target.

https://northerntribune.ca/bunbury-cpl-montreal-bid/

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/bunbury-cpl-working-diligently-to-bring-a-club-to-montreal-1.1243315

{9:20 onwards}

Edited June 13, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Initial B]

I was just reading in another thread how WestJet is providing transportation options for the CPL. If we narrow down prospective cities to match those that WestJet flies to, then teams can be drawn from a prospective pool of:

East: St John's, Gander, Corner Brook, Sydney, Halifax, Charlottetown,  Moncton, Fredericton, Quebec City, Montreal.

Central: Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo, London, Windsor, Thunder Bay, Winnipeg, Brandon.

West: Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary, Edmonton, Grand Prairie, Fort McMurray, Kamloops, Kelowna, Penticton, Abbotsford, Prince George, Fort St John, Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo, Whitehorse(!), Yellowknife(!)

Notice there is no Saint John, NB. Still, that is 36 towns that WestJet flies to - enough for a Div1 and possibly Div2 setup.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Even with Saint John there would probably be an airport shuttle from Frederiction or Moncton that could be arranged easily enough? Ditto with something like St Catherines and Hamilton or Barrie and Toronto. Think your list shows that any of the possibilities that typically gets mentioned other than possibly Sudbury (which is an internet thing more than something Beirne and Clanachan have mentioned) is viable with Westjet.