CPL new teams speculation

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, Rintaran said:

That would actually be a really good day to make the announcement.

We would all love to have them sooner of course, but from a marketing perspective, that could be a great day for the CPL to trumpet Canadiana by announcing two/three more Canadian sides for our Canadian League that is for Canadians, by Canadians, etc.

I don't think they'll wait quite that long, but I could see an angle that would work by making Canada Day also CPL Expansion Day.

Ya.

They will probably stagger the announcements as well.

This way each team get's their own special day. Similar to how the first 7 teams were announced.

[Rintaran]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

Ya.

They will probably stagger the announcements as well.

This way each team get's their own special day. Similar to how the first 7 teams were announced.

If there are 2 Quebec-sides, I can also see a UFC-title fight styled announcements of the two clubs, with the Owners facing off head-to-head to establish the rivalry.

That said, I expect it to be very drawn out, again. First we'll get one location, then another, etc. As they've already announced/leaked there will be new bespoke kits for everyone in 2020, they'll keep those for another fashion show, so we'll get to look forward to some renderings, a handful of early signings, maybe another location-specific round of trials, etc.

On the "bright"-side, I expect most of it will be streamed on OneSoccer. Because content. And I'm good with that move.

[Initial B]

If I were them, I would make the Quebec City announcement on St Jean Baptiste day, and announce Montreal on Canada Day. Start the politics off right.

[rob.notenboom]

6 hours ago, Cblake said:

I am hoping for at least 10 teams next year. Two expansion teams + Ottawa. If all goes well maybe it gets to 12 with 4 + Ottawa. 

I wouldn’t be holding my breath on Ottawa if I were you. 

[Cblake]

2 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

I wouldn’t be holding my breath on Ottawa if I were you. 

If CONCACAF lets them off the hook and they can stay in USL we will see what happens. But if they don't , I can't see how the CPL can keep them out. 

[CDNFootballer]

37 minutes ago, Cblake said:

If CONCACAF lets them off the hook and they can stay in USL we will see what happens. But if they don't , I can't see how the CPL can keep them out. 

I don't think its a matter of CPL keeping them out, but a matter of if the Fury will :

1) Pay the entry fee which will likely be higher than the initial one for year 2

and

2) Agree to drop their being a minor league affiliate team which CPL doesn't (and should never) allow as Canada's Division 1 Pro league.

[JamboAl]

4 minutes ago, CDNFootballer said:

I don't think its a matter of CPL keeping them out, but a matter of if the Fury will :

1) Pay the entry fee which will likely be higher than the initial one for year 2

and

2) Agree to drop their being a minor league affiliate team which CPL doesn't (and should never) allow as Canada's Division 1 Pro league.

I don’t believe the Fury are a minor league affiliate.  Yes, there is an agreement with the Impact but the last time I checked, there were more TFC loanees than Impact ones - but don’t know if that’s still the case.  Anyways, I agree that entry to the CPL would require that agreement to be voided.

[Gopherbashi]

10 hours ago, Rintaran said:

If there are 2 Quebec-sides, I can also see a UFC-title fight styled announcements of the two clubs, with the Owners facing off head-to-head to establish the rivalry.

That said, I expect it to be very drawn out, again. First we'll get one location, then another, etc. As they've already announced/leaked there will be new bespoke kits for everyone in 2020, they'll keep those for another fashion show, so we'll get to look forward to some renderings, a handful of early signings, maybe another location-specific round of trials, etc.

On the "bright"-side, I expect most of it will be streamed on OneSoccer. Because content. And I'm good with that move.

If they want to get maximum press, they should do it during a CBC TV broadcast.

[CDNFootballer]

2 hours ago, JamboAl said:

I don’t believe the Fury are a minor league affiliate.  Yes, there is an agreement with the Impact but the last time I checked, there were more TFC loanees than Impact ones - but don’t know if that’s still the case.  Anyways, I agree that entry to the CPL would require that agreement to be voided.

The number of players as loanee's doesn't negate the agreement of Fury being the Impact's minor league affiliate, Ottawa may in fact be a double minor league affiliate with TFC as well with an agreement with them also seemingly in place :

"Toronto FC president Bill Manning says the club is working on an affiliation deal with Ottawa Fury FC that would see the MLS team lend players to the USL side."

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/sports-pmn/toronto-fc-coach-says-argentine-forward-lucas-janson-may-not-be-back?fbclid=IwAR3BkeMtuBvMAOMNLIomot2vJ5bNpzAKCUQfL8vpvFVSEIKRefMWD7utxDs

 

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Cblake said:

If CONCACAF lets them off the hook and they can stay in USL we will see what happens. But if they don't , I can't see how the CPL can keep them out. 

No courts or organization can force a league to accept an ownership 

-NHL v. Balsillie.

Either the Fury comply with whatever CPL demands or no deal.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Ansem

[Cblake]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

No courts or organization can force a league to accept an ownership 

-NHL v. Balsillie.

Either the Fury comply with whatever CPL demands or no deal.

But if the CPL does not want the Ottawa Fury in their league , then how on the other hand can they be told they can't be in the USL? I could very well see an injunction there. No court is going to take away an entity's ability to do business where no laws are being broken.

Who has more power here, CONCACAF or the CPL? That's the real question, because if they are told they have to play in the CPL, how can they not be allowed to play in it?

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Cblake said:

But if the CPL does not want the Ottawa Fury in their league , then how on the other hand can they be told they can't be in the USL?

You can't force a league to accept an ownership. You can't force CONCACAF to sanction the Fury either.

CPL has standards and set of rules to enter. It's on the Fury to comply to what CPL wants. If they refuse and insist on getting into the league on their own terms, they only have themselves to blame

1 hour ago, Cblake said:

I could very well see an injunction there. No court is going to take away an entity's ability to do business where no laws are being broken.

First, a court would ask the Fury:

Why aren't you complying to CPL demands?

Second, Fury got sanctioned on condition that they comply to FIFA rules. They knew before agreeing to do business under FIFA sanction that this could happen. They knew the risks and signed up anyways.

Now FIFA is saying that according to its rules (that the Fury agreed too), they are no longer recognize as fitting the exemption clause and they must play in a Canadian league. 

A judge would say: You were told all the rules and fingerprints ahead of time. No one forced you to sign up for FIFA sanction. Why are you coming here now to argue that the situation  is "unfair"?

The Fury can do business by the way, it's just next to impossible to make money without a FIFA sanction. No one is telling them they can't joined the deaanctioned CSL.

FIFA sanctioning is a privilege, not a right

1 hour ago, Cblake said:

Who has more power here, CONCACAF or the CPL? That's the real question, because if they are told they have to play in the CPL, how can they not be allowed to play in it?

CPL is simply establishing it's norms, rules and requirements to join its league. We need to stop with the conspiracy theories. When NY Cosmos wanted to be exempt from MLS rules, they were laughed out the room. Why should CPL be any different? No serious league let's a team dictate how it does business.

CONCACAF is simply enforcing FIFA rules at a Continental level. (Decentralization of powers)

In a nutshell...the ball is in the Fury's court. Comply or stay out. Your choice

Edited May 25, 2019 by Ansem

[JamboAl]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You can't force a league to accept an ownership. You can't CONCACAF to sanction the Fury either.

CPL has standards and set of rules to enter. It's on the Fury to comply to what CPL wants. If they refuse and insist on getting into the league on their own terms, they only have themselves to blame

First, a court would ask the Fury:

Why aren't you to complying to CPL demands?

Second, Fury got sanctioned on condition that they comply on FIFA rules. They knew before agreeing to do business under FIFA sanction that this could happen. They knew the risks and signed up anyways.

Now FIFA is saying that according to its rules (that the Fury agreed too), they are no longer recognize as fitting the exemption clause and they must play in a Canadian league. 

A judge would say: You were told all the rules and fingerprints ahead of time. No one forced you to sign up for FIFA sanction. Why are you coming here now to argue that the situation  is "unfair"?

The Fury can do business by the way, it's just next to impossible to make money without a FIFA sanction. No one is telling them they can't joined the deaanctioned CSL.

FIFA sanctioning is a privilege, not a right

CPL is simply establishing it's norms, rules and requirements to join its league. We need to stop we the conspiracy theories. When NY Cosmos wanted to be exempt from MLS rules, they were laughed out the room. Why should CPL be any different? No serious league let's a team dictate how it does business.

CONCACAF is simply enforcing FIFA rules at a Continental level. (Decentralization of powers)

 

In a nutshell...the ball is in the Fury's court. Comply or stay out. Your choice

In a way, true.  But again if I were OSEG and CONCACAF forced me out of USL and into the CPL and the CPL said no, I’d be suing the league to either let me in or sue for (tens of) millions for rendering my team worthless.  And let’s not even talk about joining another Canadian league - cause this country has such a healthy professional soccer scene that it can run parallel leagues...

Anyways, I look forward to the day that the Ottawa Fury is the most hated team in the CPL - and winning the championship the first year in the league.  

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

In a way, true.  But again if I were OSEG and CONCACAF forced me out of USL and into the CPL and the CPL said no, I’d be suing the league to either let me in or sue for (tens of) millions for rendering my team worthless.  

You'd have no grounds if the league is saying no because you're refusing to comply to leagues rules and demands. You'd be the unreasonable party, not CONCACAF or CPL. Why aren't you willing to accept whatever the league is asking every other teams?

Why being so difficult? That attitude didn't get the NY Cosmos nowhere

7 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

And let’s not even talk about joining another Canadian league - cause this country has such a healthy professional soccer scene that it can run parallel leagues...

Then they aren't stopping you from doing business are they? It's just that FIFA won't let you use its brand while refusing to comply to its rule. Again...who's being unreasonable here?

If you comply to CONCACAF and not CPL, L1O is your only option. Is that preventing from doing business? No but that's not CONCACAF, CSA or CPL problem if you got yourself into that situation on your own. 

Again, no grounds in court

7 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Anyways, I look forward to the day that the Ottawa Fury is the most hated team in the CPL - and winning the championship the first year in the league.  

After they comply 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Ansem

[JamboAl]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You'd have no grounds if the league is saying no because you're refusing to comply to leagues rules and demands. You'd be the unreasonable party, not CONCACAF or CPL. Why aren't you willing to accept whatever the league is asking every other teams?

Why being so difficult? That attitude didn't get the NY Cosmos nowhere

Then they aren't stopping you from doing business are they? It's just that FIFA won't let you use its brand while refusing to comply to its rule. Again...who's being unreasonable here?

If you comply to CONCACAF and not CPL, L1O is your only option. Is that preventing from doing business? No but that's not CONCACAF, CSA or CPL problem if you got yourself into that situation on your own. 

Again, no grounds in court

After they comply 

What league rules are not being complied with? I don’t think that has even been fully discussed yet.  Or at least none of us are really in the know.  

Look, I want an Ottawa team in the CPL.  I just don’t agree with the adversarial way you are proposing.  Cause if that’s the way it’s going to happen, I would think twice about buying a season ticket and supporting the league.  

[ktf]

Two Quebec teams is great for the league. Not everything has been perfect, but generally the league tends to do a good job with due process, marketing, etc. 

With that being said, priority one is getting through year 1 with all teams being either sustainable already, or at least have the potential to be. Early signs are great for Halifax, Valour, and Forge. I think PFC will be okay with summer approaching. Also they do have a solid season ticket base that takes up most of the main stands(and the more expensive seats). Edmonton seems to be okay for the league's business model. Cavalry has also had issues off the field in attendance. We will start to have a better idea with York after this weekend. 

The worst thing that can happen is have one or two that cannot or will not proceed in year 2. If all teams can survive, they will hopefully have a high season ticket renewal rate, and then add to the base.

Throw in two new Quebec teams, plus maybe Saskatchewan, Moncton, or Ottawa, and things are looking real good. I feel that adding teams, aside from Ottawa, should be the priority though. There are two teams in Ontario already, and if the league is not only standing, but looking good after two years, Ottawa will probably be begging to join. 

[Ams1984]

4 minutes ago, ktf said:

Two Quebec teams is great for the league. Not everything has been perfect, but generally the league tends to do a good job with due process, marketing, etc. 

With that being said, priority one is getting through year 1 with all teams being either sustainable already, or at least have the potential to be. Early signs are great for Halifax, Valour, and Forge. I think PFC will be okay with summer approaching. Also they do have a solid season ticket base that takes up most of the main stands(and the more expensive seats). Edmonton seems to be okay for the league's business model. Cavalry has also had issues off the field in attendance. We will start to have a better idea with York after this weekend. 

The worst thing that can happen is have one or two that cannot or will not proceed in year 2. If all teams can survive, they will hopefully have a high season ticket renewal rate, and then add to the base.

Throw in two new Quebec teams, plus maybe Saskatchewan, Moncton, or Ottawa, and things are looking real good. I feel that adding teams, aside from Ottawa, should be the priority though. There are two teams in Ontario already, and if the league is not only standing, but looking good after two years, Ottawa will probably be begging to join. 

I’d be genuinely surprised if any clubs fold in the first few years. I’m willing to bet that a condition of ownership (by the league) was that owners demonstrate the means and the willingness to see this thing through until a pre-determined benchmark (probably the WC in Canada if I had to guess) to give the league the best possible chance at success. 

I think that these clubs all have low operating budgets, so just with the MEDIAPRO thing and other sponsorship deals they’d be half way to breaking even. Factor in attendances of anything between 3k-5k and they’ll be breaking even. Anything more than that is probably profit. 

I’m very optimistic that this league will succeed, and I think they need to grow -but grow slowly and cautiously- ensuring that all future owners also have the means and the willingness to give it a good go for the long term. 

[Ansem]

32 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

What league rules are not being complied with? I don’t think that has even been fully discussed yet.  Or at least none of us are really in the know.  

Well the league said that they were talking to the Fury for months or more and couldn't come to an agreement. That's negotiations.

36 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Look, I want an Ottawa team in the CPL.  I just don’t agree with the adversarial way you are proposing.  Cause if that’s the way it’s going to happen, I would think twice about buying a season ticket and supporting the league

Adversarial? That's business, it's not personal.

Most likely, if there's a deal, you would know little to no details of said deal and the ownership would start praising CPL until no end.

You'd buy tickets and support the league

[ktf]

3 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

I’d be genuinely surprised if any clubs fold in the first few years. I’m willing to bet that a condition of ownership (by the league) was that owners demonstrate the means and the willingness to see this thing through until a pre-determined benchmark (probably the WC in Canada if I had to guess) to give the league the best possible chance at success. 

I think that these clubs all have low operating budgets, so just with the MEDIAPRO thing and other sponsorship deals they’d be half way to breaking even. Factor in attendances of anything between 3k-5k and they’ll be breaking even. Anything more than that is probably profit. 

I’m very optimistic that this league will succeed, and I think they need to grow -but grow slowly and cautiously- ensuring that all future owners also have the means and the willingness to give it a good go for the long term. 

I do agree with that, and also feel that some level of intial commitment was expected, but I would guess it is more in the two-three year range. I am genuinely very happy with and positive about the whole process and they keep it going. Just with expansion they need to keep that caution going, and for the sake of being a truly national league we need those teams in Quebec. 

[JamboAl]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

Well the league said that they were talking to the Fury for months or more and couldn't come to an agreement. That's negotiations.

Adversarial? That's business, it's not personal.

Most likely, if there's a deal, you would know little to no details of said deal and the ownership would start praising CPL until no end.

You'd buy tickets and support the league

Hope you are correct.  In the meantime, I’ll enjoy watching both the CPL and USL this season.

[Bison44]

16 hours ago, Ansem said:

Adversarial? That's business, it's not personal.

That is very ominous!  I'm picturing you saying that then kissing jamboAl on the cheek.  

[baulderdash77]

I’m still holding out hope that we get the 2 Quebec teams plus Ottawa next year.  That would be really great.  

[shamrock]

On 5/25/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ams1984 said:

I’d be genuinely surprised if any clubs fold in the first few years.

I would not. Except for some kind of monetary punishment (which is limited) there's nothing the league can do to prevent a club owner from losing money. In fact, it's almost inevitable in a fledging league like the CanPL to see some contractions. 

[Ams1984]

5 hours ago, shamrock said:

I would not. Except for some kind of monetary punishment (which is limited) there's nothing the league can do to prevent a club owner from losing money. In fact, it's almost inevitable in a fledging league like the CanPL to see some contractions. 

I’m not saying it’s not possible, I’m saying I’d be surprised if it happened. The owners are all big money, they’re not the kind of businesses that just bail when their business plans probably call for losses for the first few years. If in fact their plans do call for that (which they most likely do) then why would they bail before the time of predicted losses elapses? The operating budgets of these clubs is nothing but a cute tax write off to most of these owners... I really doubt they’d be spooked by a tough first 3-5 years. 

[dyslexic nam]

I can see a team folding at some point - it happens in pro sports.  But I agree with the idea that it won't happen anytime soon.  Anyone going in to this expecting every team in every market to knock it out of the park in year 1 is probably not very business savvy. And I assume the owners are well aware of the dynamics of pro sports and went in eyes wide open.