CPL new teams speculation

[dyslexic nam]

I guess I am a bit torn.  I still recognize that having 3 teams in a league that is definitely on the upswing will help grow the game here.  I am just a bit selfish about CPL.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

I guess I am a bit torn.  I still recognize that having 3 teams in a league that is definitely on the upswing will help grow the game here.  I am just a bit selfish about CPL.

Ideally, CPL needs those 3 to reach it's full potential. 

2nd best option is having CPL teams in Toronto and Montreal by 2026 I'd say. To get to the next level.

Being out of the 3 cities will always prevent CPL from reaching it's full potential 

[1996]

26 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Credible journalists are talking about it

Short story... with US cities lining up to get in and willing to pay crazy expansion fees and build stadiums...MLS could easily pressure MTL to exit or do it themselves.

Montreal only paid $35M to get in and all those US cities in big US media markets are willing to pay hundreds of millions.

Same could happen to Vancouver if their fan deserts them

*I want us to get our 3 clubs back. That makes me Lucifer

Comparé Miami To Montréal 

Not in my lifetime I’m 54 so what maybe 20 years left if I’m lucky , when I go it won’t matter anymore if the 3 Canadian MLS teams go to the CPL , but while I’m alive I’m enjoying watching my team and the other Canadian MLS teams in the MLS which is a growing league and playing against some of the worlds major cities. Let’s see playing against an LA or New York or a Chicago or a Miami is just so much more sexier than a Halifax, Hamilton  , Winnipeg or a Calgary not just for me but for many in the big three Canadian cities, probably one of the reason the CFL is struggling in our big three cities. The MLS is the big league right now in these parts and probably for years to come , the only way the 3 Canadian cities leave the MLS is if the MLS starts to falter , other than that these 3 teams ain’t going anywhere soon.

[baulderdash77]

To be honest I’m the opposite.  I’d rather see Edmonton / Calgary, , Saskatchewan/ Winnipeg, Hamilton / Ottawa, Toronto/ Montreal than watch Toronto/ New York.

Domestic rivalries are always the best ones IMO.

In the long run having a 12 team CanPL including the 12 largest markets in Canada would be best for Canadian soccer.  There are lots of national brands who would support it and there would be competition for media rights.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, 1996 said:

Not in my lifetime I’m 54 so what maybe 20 years left if I’m lucky , when I go it won’t matter anymore if the 3 Canadian MLS teams go to the CPL , but while I’m alive I’m enjoying watching my team and the other Canadian MLS teams in the MLS which is a growing league and playing against some of the worlds major cities. Let’s see playing against an LA or New York or a Chicago or a Miami is just so much more sexier than a Halifax, Hamilton  , Winnipeg or a Calgary not just for me but for many in the big three Canadian cities, probably one of the reason the CFL is struggling in our big three cities. The MLS is the big league right now in these parts and probably for years to come , the only way the 3 Canadian cities leave the MLS is if the MLS starts to falter , other than that these 3 teams ain’t going anywhere soon.

I respectfully disagree and respect your opinion. If NYC, LA and Miami were so excited, Montreal wouldn't be struggling. Wanna bet a Quebec City, Montreal draws more?

 

1 hour ago, baulderdash77 said:

To be honest I’m the opposite.  I’d rather see Edmonton / Calgary, , Saskatchewan/ Winnipeg, Hamilton / Ottawa, Toronto/ Montreal than watch Toronto/ New York.

Domestic rivalries are always the best ones IMO.

In the long run having a 12 team CanPL including the 12 largest markets in Canada would be best for Canadian soccer.  There are lots of national brands who would support it and there would be competition for media rights.

Same for me, we have the Champions League for facing up LA or Miami or NYC.

[Keegan]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Credible journalists are talking about it

Short story... with US cities lining up to get in and willing to pay crazy expansion fees and build stadiums...MLS could easily pressure MTL to exit or do it themselves.

Montreal only paid $35M to get in and all those US cities in big US media markets are willing to pay hundreds of millions.

Same could happen to Vancouver if their fan deserts them

*I want us to get our 3 clubs back. That makes me Lucifer

Comparé Miami To Montréal 

I mean, so what?  Look at leagues around the world and you'll see a huge disparity in spending power and facilities ... Montreal still doesn't have the worst stadium in the league even.

This sounds more like a plea to get more public funding than anything else.. I can't imagine the team losing that much money in a league that is constantly growing and signing huge $ deals while Montreal continues to spend around the same level.  

[zen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I respectfully disagree and respect your opinion. If NYC, LA and Miami were so excited, Montreal wouldn't be struggling. Wanna bet a Quebec City, Montreal draws more?

 

Same for me, we have the Champions League for facing up LA or Miami or NYC.

Wth? Noo. Montreal wouldn't be struggling if Saputo was willing to spend more to compete.

IMO

I think most Torontonians would rather play New York than Saskatoon, Argos case and point. Hamiltonians may feel differently because historically Hamilton has been its own cultural centre.

Let's be real though, any of the MLS teams moving to CPL would make soccer in Canada worse. MLS will continue to grow and CPL will too, but it will never be as good plain and simple. I'd rather us have a small part in something that's going to be huge than a huge part of something small.

In fact, if the US, Mexico were to really discuss merging leagues, Canada should be a part of that. This way we'd have a pathway for players to play at the highest level. This league would be able compete with some of the better teams in Europe.

Edited October 13, 2018 by zen

[Macksam]

Even though I disagree with 1996 insinuating that playing major American cities is the main reason the Canadian MLS cities draw big (it actually has always been the professional appearance of MLS above anything else), I must say I don’t buy these stories of Vancouver and Montreal “struggling financially” in this league. MLS is still a budget league and both these clubs have no problem at all competing against anybody. If the MLS clubs ever go to CPL, it will be due to the CPL becoming an attractive destination for them, no other reason.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Macksam

[1996]

45 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I mean, so what?  Look at leagues around the world and you'll see a huge disparity in spending power and facilities ... Montreal still doesn't have the worst stadium in the league even.

This sounds more like a plea to get more public funding than anything else.. I can't imagine the team losing that much money in a league that is constantly growing and signing huge $ deals while Montreal continues to spend around the same level.  

If Saputo can’t hack it then maybe he needs to sell the team, he also owns Bologna in Italy’s serie A  that whenever I’ve watched Bologna games the stadium always seems half empty , Saputo stadium seems always pretty full on the other hand .

[lazlo_80]

Saputo said very similar things before dropping a ton of cash on Drogba. Periodically when he's pissed off he tends to do a "I'm fed up with this and just might pack it all in" type of interview. This sounds like more of the same.

He's also about to receive expansion cash from Nashville, Cincy and Miami. The impact will be fine.

[Keegan]

30 minutes ago, zen said:

Wth? Noo. Montreal wouldn't be struggling if Saputo was willing to spend more to compete.

IMO

I think most Torontonians would rather play New York than Saskatoon, Argos case and point. Hamiltonians may feel differently because historically Hamilton has been its own cultural centre.

Let's be real though, any of the MLS teams moving to CPL would make soccer in Canada worse. MLS will continue to grow and CPL will too, but it will never be as good plain and simple. I'd rather us have a small part in something that's going to be huge than a huge part of something small.

In fact, if the US, Mexico were to really discuss merging leagues, Canada should be a part of that. This way we'd have a pathway for players to play at the highest level. This league would be able compete with some of the better teams in Europe.

This isn't an apt comparison.. the Argos struggle because Torontonians have so many superior sporting options in Toronto - MLB, NHL, NBA and MLS offer big name talent.  That's like saying the Raptors would struggle for attendance if they played a Winnipeg NBA team or the Leafs would struggle if they had to suddenly play Helsinki... no one cares about what city is coming to Toronto.  

People from Chicago don't mind when they play Green Bay in the NFL because that doesn't matter, the club/reputation matters and small cities can build just as big rivalries with any other city.  

I also don't think Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver coming back would hurt at all but it would help a ton in fact.  Think about it.. neither of these teams play many Canadians, there are less than 10 Canadians between 3 clubs that you could say played regularly to semi-regularly this season: Davies, Piette, Osorio, Chapman, De Jong, Teibert, Henry, Telfer, Morgan, Hamilton and I'm reaching here because 4 of those guys have played less than 900 minutes.  That's just not good enough.  Bringing the teams back won't happen but it would be revolutionary for Canadian soccer with the quotas mentioned and those big markets involved.  

[zen]

11 hours ago, Keegan said:

This isn't an apt comparison.. the Argos struggle because Torontonians have so many superior sporting options in Toronto - MLB, NHL, NBA and MLS offer big name talent.  That's like saying the Raptors would struggle for attendance if they played a Winnipeg NBA team or the Leafs would struggle if they had to suddenly play Helsinki... no one cares about what city is coming to Toronto.  

People from Chicago don't mind when they play Green Bay in the NFL because that doesn't matter, the club/reputation matters and small cities can build just as big rivalries with any other city.  

I also don't think Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver coming back would hurt at all but it would help a ton in fact.  Think about it.. neither of these teams play many Canadians, there are less than 10 Canadians between 3 clubs that you could say played regularly to semi-regularly this season: Davies, Piette, Osorio, Chapman, De Jong, Teibert, Henry, Telfer, Morgan, Hamilton and I'm reaching here because 4 of those guys have played less than 900 minutes.  That's just not good enough.  Bringing the teams back won't happen but it would be revolutionary for Canadian soccer with the quotas mentioned and those big markets involved.  

I can see what you're saying. Similarly, using your argument, people's reasoning that Torontonians would care more about local rivalries doesn't hold up. Torontonians do have superior options. I would also think that a NFL team would be much better supported than the Argos. Maybe it's because the American market base provides the best possible quality, I think that'll be true of soccer. Fans in our Toronto crave that, I know I do. I want to see our best representing their home team in the best possible league playing against some of the best players in the world. CPL has its place but it is not this.

I'm okay with them not playing Canadians. Minutes are not meant to be handed out. The crux of the matter is that a lot of our players are not good enough to compete in a continually improving MLS. If a player is good enough I doubt that any of the 3 teams would intentionally hold them back. Having said that minutes are important for development. CPL will be good for that. The best players will rise to the top and move on to play for the 3 MLS teams. If CPL can be at the level of the teams at the top of the EFL Championship with MLS teams analogously being equivalent to the EPL, that'd be awesome. That's how I picture it.

With a North American League I'd do it differently.

Edited October 13, 2018 by zen

[mpg_29]

I thought that there might be a possibility that Vancouver and Montreal would end up leaving MLS some day due to the economics. I don't think Toronto FC will ever leave. 

The only thing I figure is that unlike american sports....  soccer is still easier to sell in Vancouver and Montreal than a lot of American cities...particularly the heartland. There isn't 30 cities in the US that can outsell Vancouver and Montreal in terms of soccer. Therefore I think they will have an advantage in that way.

Though some fun thoughts...the franchise fee alone from selling in MLS would probably cover your operating costs in CPL for 30 years ...

[1996]

The CPL if it survives will serve a purpose in developing Canadian players to go on and play in bigger leagues, be it the MLS or in Europe or wherever. If the MLS keeps growing economically and in its level of play then this is where good Canadian players will play if they are good enough and the even better ones will go to Europe. Our 3 Canadian MLS teams if and as long as they can will want to stay in a higher level league which is the MLS. Fans are not stupid they want their city in a higher level league ,  put the NFL in Toronto and BMO Field will be too small to house an NFL team now the Argos draw flies to BMO no matter how much papers like the Toronto Sun hype them up . 

[CDNFootballer]

23 hours ago, Ansem said:

Credible journalists are talking about it

Short story... with US cities lining up to get in and willing to pay crazy expansion fees and build stadiums...MLS could easily pressure MTL to exit or do it themselves.

Montreal only paid $35M to get in and all those US cities in big US media markets are willing to pay hundreds of millions.

Same could happen to Vancouver if their fan deserts them

*I want us to get our 3 clubs back. That makes me Lucifer

Comparé Miami To Montréal 

Not sure what the tweets say as they're in french but as for any of the 3 Canadian MLS franchises one day going to CPL, the owners would do so by selling their franchise/business unit spot back to MLS(MLS paid Chivas USA's owner about 70Million USD when they bought back his spot).

The team could then pay the CPL fee and join the league.  If some of the CPL clubs with bigger stadiums grow to averaging close to MLS crowds that could help sway someone like a Saputo to move to sell they're spot to MLS and move to the Canadian Premier League.

[Watchmen]

Always keep in mind that SUM is very profitable, and buying in to MLS gets ownership in SUM.  So while I don't doubt MLS reports that some teams lose money, ownership groups losing money overall is less common now.  As well, the CBA is up in the next few years I think, and commissioners/owners love to start floating the "we're losing money" narrative out there before that begins, even as they sell expansion franchises at record amounts.

[Ansem]

Saputo is bleeding money even with SUM  and TV rights revenues. Hope's that puts an end to this belief that SUM and TV compensates... it flat out doesn't 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Ansem

[baulderdash77]

To be honest if I was the owner of Montreal or Vancouver and I paid a 35 million expansion fee in 2012 and could sell it today for 150 million today I’d not think twice about it.  That’s a very good investment envelope if you suffered operating losses during the seasons.

 

Who wouldn’t ?  

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, baulderdash77 said:

To be honest if I was the owner of Montreal or Vancouver and I paid a 35 million expansion fee in 2012 and could sell it today for 150 million today I’d not think twice about it.  That’s a very good investment envelope if you suffered operating losses during the seasons.

 

Who wouldn’t ?  

He's adamant at not selling and finding every ways to turn this around. However if he can't, he made clear that he's not willing to keep bleeding money like this past a certain point.

Quebec Coty will have been in CPL by then,  one must wonder if he sees a way to at least losing no more than $2M a year and count on rivalries with Quebec City to fill the stands while drastically cutting costs...will he resist it?

That becomes a business decision at this point

[Alex D]

Let's keep in mind that he paid 35 million at par. 150 USD is 195 CDN. 

[Ansem]

34 minutes ago, Alex D said:

Let's keep in mind that he paid 35 million at par. 150 USD is 195 CDN. 

Saputo spent almost $200M for the club. He thinks it's worth $175M. It's overvalued as he doesn't even own the stadium nor the training centre lands. 

Even if he sold, he'd wouldn't make back the money he invested.

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Ansem

[ted]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Saputo spent almost $200M for the club. He thinks it's worth $175M. It's overvalued as he doesn't even own the stadium nor the training centre lands. 

Even if he sold, he'd wouldn't make back the money he invested.

 

If the figures quoted are true he will NEVER make his money back.

[DoyleG]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Saputo spent almost $200M for the club. He thinks it's worth $175M. It's overvalued as he doesn't even own the stadium nor the training centre lands. 

Even if he sold, he'd wouldn't make back the money he invested.

 

This.

Not owning the property hurts his overall value and also limits what he can leverage out of the club in regards to investment. Whitecaps would be in a similar position since they have to rent BC Place and leasing from UBC when WFC2 was running.

The expansion money that is supposed to be coming in has to be taken with some considerations. The payouts that the teams get wouldn't be as great as thought with the $150M fee. USSF and SUM get their shares of the pie before any of the money trickles down to the teams. With it being divided equally and paid out over time, the amounts each team will get won't be as large. Miami would be getting in at a discount as MLS has to keep up its end of the bargain with Beckham & Co.

They have to convince prospective owners that the price is worth it and someone will balk in the end.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...meanwhile Columbus has apparently just been saved as the league appears keen to keep existing cities on board even if it means losing out a bit where expansion is concerned. If Columbus had gone there would be more reason for concern that the league will become a carbon copy of the NFL on the concept of relocation making all of the lower revenue markets vulnerable.

The 2026 joint World Cup hosting is coming over the horizon with the promise of boom years for the sport in North America in the aftermath. Montreal is almost certainly going to be one of the cities hosting games and that makes this the ideal time for the Saputo family to try to get a better deal for themselves given municipal money is about to be spent related to that. Just as this was the ideal time for the Fath brothers to do the same in Edmonton a few months back with much associated drama about FCE folding permanently.

[1996]

On 10/13/2018 at 10:17 PM, Ansem said:

He's adamant at not selling and finding every ways to turn this around. However if he can't, he made clear that he's not willing to keep bleeding money like this past a certain point.

Quebec Coty will have been in CPL by then,  one must wonder if he sees a way to at least losing no more than $2M a year and count on rivalries with Quebec City to fill the stands while drastically cutting costs...will he resist it?

That becomes a business decision at this point

It’s nice to have a dream what is life without having dreams and yours is to see the three Canadian MLS teams in the CPL one day if the CPL survives, mine is to see even more Canadian teams in the MLS if the CPL does not make it, what is life without having a dream pretty boring I think.