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CPL new teams speculation

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2 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Central, Caribbean and African young talent. Also CPL should be taking on loans of young players from other teams. Steven Gerrard said Young English players should be looking at the MLS. Well CPL should  promoting as a option for them. Same with young Scotlish, Irish,  Welsh players. 

There also might be some gems in northern countries like Iceland, Faroe Islands etc
 

Euro leagues are already all over Africa. That's why I didn't mentioned it. Same for South America although MLS are getting there, leaving CONCACAF and Caribbean nations for the taking.

You're right about taking loans from team for talented young players.

Being different and unique is the key for CPL.

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3 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

To your second point, I agree, that was actually my entire point. I was illustrating that people came out in droves in 2007 for TFC and if the salary numbers for CPL are comparable (at least from what has been reported), there is no reason to believe that people in Saskatoon or Halifax will be sticking their nose up at CPL's on-field quality. I'm sure that would be true at a lower salary figure too, I was just using available examples to counter the notion that people in distant markets would be turned off by sub-MLS quality players

This is what I believe too. The ticket pricing will need to be right but other than that I don't think anybody is expecting to see Lionel Messi.

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So eventually as it always does it all comes back to TFC in 2007. The main anchor investors even hired Paul Beirne probably with the thought that he can recreate whatever he did there, so it's probably even the case with some of the people on the inside to a certain extent. TFC's resounding box office success was an enigmatic mystery to the corporate sports media at the time who had believed their own propaganda that soccer could never succeed in Canada, so a false narrative of young people going for the party rather than the soccer had to be created to try to explain it all away.

In reality, back in 2007 people were expecting to see David Beckham at BMO Field on an alleged $250 million contract that created a seismic shift in the way MLS was viewed by the core of soccer's following in the GTA. That signing and all the hype that went with it massively boosted the pace of season season ticket sales at pretty much the perfect time in a Toronto context and it's debateable whether the consistent year one sellouts would have happened without the credibility boost that it gave the league. You actually would need someone like Messi as a marquee player on one of the teams in CanPL to recreate what happened, and although the 2007 TFC roster was less than stellar overall, you would still need each team to have a high profile coach that played at a very high level (Mo Johnston), signing players with recent Premiership experience (Carl Robinson and Andy Welsh) and CMNT starters (Jim Brennan and Chris Pozniak) and fringe players (Adam Braz and Marco Reda) to have something directly comparable. That's not what is likely to happen except possibly for the last bit and let's bear in mind both Braz and Reda were well out of their depth in MLS as it was eleven years ago, so they would be complete road kill now at that level in the era of TAM signings. A CanPL launch would almost certainly be more like what happened with FC Edmonton and the Ottawa Fury, which was a recipe in both cases for acres of empty seats (when CFL sized stadia are used) and seven figure financial losses.

Beyond that Toronto has a massive first generation immigrant soccer crowd that grew up with the sport overseas and although it doesn't get talked up that played a large part in TFC's success as well, because the latent potential was always there for high quality pro soccer due to high immigration rates going back as far as the early 1960s when Toronto City and Toronto Italia drew large crowds in the ECPSL when it was Danny Blanchflower, Stanley Matthews and Johnny Haynes rather than David Beckham providing the credibility. Demographically and culturally Toronto is very different from a city like Halifax, so it's not safe to assume that because they are both in Canada things would unfold the same way. To provide an analogy, if you could suddenly persuade a team with top players from countries like India and England to play in one of the existing T20 cricket competitions in a Toronto context you could draw a large crowd of avid cricket fans without having to do very much beyond the TFC 2007 scenario of launching a website and waiting for sales to come in, but good luck with a new lower budget domestic T20 cricket operation in a city out on the Prairies without doing a lot of marketing and being willing to be patient for many years in a similar way to the Fath brothers with financial losses as an audience slowly grows for a sport that most people locally hadn't watched much previously.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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David Beckham's impact on TFC is minimal at best. They had already sold over 7,000 season tickets before his announced move and it's not like sales were slowing. Did sales speed up? Sure, but there was already a buzz about this team. It was a success from day one, with or without Beckham.

Also, Toronto is definitely the only city in Canada with immigrants. Everywhere else is 1952. 

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15 hours ago, SpecialK said:

 At $50 a ticket and 8000 seat stadium = $400,000 a game x roughly 20 home games = $ 8 million a season just in tickets.

 

 

 

20 HOME games? That's quite a long season for CPL.

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"A CanPL launch would almost certainly be more like what happened with FC Edmonton and the Ottawa Fury, which was a recipe in both cases for acres of empty seats (when CFL sized stadia are used) and seven figure financial losses." BBTB

BBTB: you are using Ottawa and Edmonton as examples of the kind of failure that the CPL is probably heading for.  But those teams both launched into the american system and an american league.  Isnt that one of your main arguments on this, that we dont have to reinvent the wheel and we can have more teams in Canada within the exisiting american frameworks/structure with much less risk/hassle??  FCE couldnt make a go of it, Ottawa had to drop down a division and strike up a partnership with Montreal and 2 out of the 3 CDN farm team USL sides went under, and even more insulting, Vancouver thought it was better to use a US team as a USL affliate.  How does the recent failures of our teams within the american system (except for our 3 biggest markets in the marquee american league) suggest that pro soccer will spread to any new areas in Canada??  Will the people of Alberta, the praires, the martimes just have to accept that we will never have any kind of decent soccer?  MLS isnt putting another team in Canada, I am not sure the USL even wants any more CDN clubs.  Where do we go from here if we dont try and start our own league?  

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24 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

 How does the recent failures of our teams within the american system (except for our 3 biggest markets in the marquee american league) suggest that pro soccer will spread to any new areas in Canada??  Will the people of Alberta, the praires, the martimes just have to accept that we will never have any kind of decent soccer?  MLS isnt putting another team in Canada, I am not sure the USL even wants any more CDN clubs.  Where do we go from here if we dont try and start our own league?  

..........AND you can say the same things about the NHL.

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On a domestic league, if Canadian players are going to be the main focus (and why bother otherwise?) I would adjust the budgets to fit a 2500 to 3500 break even maximum with regional bus travel oriented divisions and a mix of pro and semi-pro contracts. I would lower the stadium requirements considerably so, for example, K/W United at Wilfred Laurier would have been potentially viable with Nexturf tiles and even London, Ont's German Club would be potentially doable for a team like FC London, if expanded bleacher seating could be put in. I would be open to USL being used in larger million plus markets like Ottawa potentially with MLS affiliations, but this CanPL thing will obviously have to reach whatever resolution it is going to reach before options like that would potentially be considered again by the CSA, if as I suspect it ultimately turns out to have been unrealistic.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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16 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

On a domestic league, if Canadian players are going to be the main focus (and why bother otherwise?) I would adjust the budgets to fit a 2500 to 3500 break even maximum with regional bus travel oriented divisions and a mix of pro and semi-pro contracts. I would lower the stadium requirements considerably so, for example, K/W United at Wilfred Laurier would have been potentially viable with Nexturf tiles and even London, Ont's German Club would be potentially doable for a team like FC London, if expanded bleacher seating could be put in. I would be open to USL being used in larger million plus markets like Ottawa potentially with MLS affiliations, but this CanPL thing will obviously have to reach whatever resolution it is going to reach before options like that would potentially be considered again by the CSA, if as I suspect it ultimately turns out to have been unrealistic.

So basically just replicating League1 Ontario and hoping for higher attendance should be the goal...

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Not really. The problem with L1O is that there is no hope whatsoever of all those GTA youth clubs ever drawing a crowd and they are getting in because of the clout they hold in OSA terms rather than what they genuinely have to offer in pro soccer terms. It's a local amateur league masquerading as something it's not. To do something that might actually sustain some modest pro level contracts, I would focus initially on smaller cities somewhat distant from the three MLS markets like London and Victoria where teams like FC London and the Victoria Highlanders have been able to draw into four figures in a PDL context in the not so distant past as a way to build up a fully domestic D3 beneath USL and MLS. Halifax's Wanderers Ground pop-up plan would be ideal for something like this, basically, rather than the CFL stadia in Hamilton and Winnipeg.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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11 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

On a domestic league, if Canadian players are going to be the main focus (and why bother otherwise?) I would adjust the budgets to fit a 2500 to 3500 break even maximum with regional bus travel oriented divisions and I would lower the stadium requirements considerably so, for example, K/W United at Wilfred Laurier would have been potentially viable with Nexturf tiles and even London, Ont's German Club would be potentially doable for a team like FC London, if expanded bleacher seating could be put in. I would be open to USL being used in larger million plus markets like Ottawa potentially with MLS affiliations, but this CanPL thing will obviously have to reach whatever resolution it is going to reach before options like that would potentially be considered again by the CSA, if as I suspect it ultimately turns out to have been unrealistic.

Bus travel is only going to work for certain scenarios. The clever thing about NBL Canada is that they have clustered the teams into two divisions, Southern Ontario and Atlantic Canada,which I suspect cuts down on the amount of flights (ie fly in, bus around and play each team in the division, then fly out) 

The unfortunate thing about soccer long turnaround time between games. It's not like basketball or hockey where you can play 3 or 4 games a week.

Best case in CPL is a team could get two away games with one return flight. ex:team from halifax has game against Edmonton on Saturday March 24 and game against Calgary Saturday March 31. Fly in to edmonton, play, bus to calgary, play, fly out of calgary. Still significant expenses with hotels though, but probably less worse than two full return flights and all that additional flying time.

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9 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Not really. The problem with L1O is that there is no hope whatsoever of all those GTA youth clubs ever drawing a crowd and they are getting in because of the clout they hold in OSA terms rather than what they genuinely have to offer in pro soccer terms. It's a local amateur league masquerading as something it's not. To do something that might actually sustain some modest pro level contracts, I would focus initially on smaller cities somewhat distant from the three MLS markets like London and Victoria where teams like FC London and the Victoria Highlanders have been able to draw into four figures in a PDL context in the not so distant past as a way to build up a fully domestic D3 beneath USL and MLS. Halifax's Wanderers Ground pop-up plan would be ideal for something like this, basically, basically rather than the CFL stadia in Hamilton and Winnipeg.

The issue with this is that you are not going to meet a 2500-3500 regular attendance with this model. You gave FC London as an example, now mind you I am only using Wikipedia for attendance numbers so they could be completely inaccurate, but London in 2015 had an everage attendance of 944 and in 2014 has an attendance of 777.

The league that I see you proposing, unless I am completely off the mark, seems to be a league that is about PDL level or slightly higher so if people weren't attending FC London PDL games before, I don't see 2 to 3 times more people coming out for a game that is only slightly higher of a level.

I do however agree with you that I am not a big fan of using the gigantic stadiums for CPL. Not a big fan of going to a Fury game and seeing an entire half of the stadium empty, but I guess you have to make due with what you have

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19 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

The issue with this is that you are not going to meet a 2500-3500 regular attendance with this model. You gave FC London as an example, now mind you I am only using Wikipedia for attendance numbers so they could be completely inaccurate, but London in 2015 had an everage attendance of 944 and in 2014 has an attendance of 777...

The OHL and NBL Canada can both draw 5000+ in London. Soccer could do better than it did with PDL with the right setup, because drawing that many for something as low level as PDL was actually quite an achievement. Throw in something like Windsor, Kitchener, Hamilton (not at Ivor Wynne obviously!) and a TFC III team and you have the makings of a regional bus travel division. Something similar could be done in the Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City corridor, maybe also with the Maritimes cities but with a lower projected break even etc, and put a Canadian branding on the whole thing with a Memorial Cup type tournament at the end.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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. . . having regional bus travel divisions and a mix of pro- and semi-pro contracts still sounds a lot less like a D1 League and a lot more like the regional D3 Leagues in ON, QC and BC (with some obvious adjustments). Expanding it and slapping Canadian branding on the whole thing with a Memorial Cup type tournament at the end would really just make this a CHL-type equivalent, à la the Easton Report.

I get that you have serious concerns about how/if CPL will work, but if you're really more comfortable with a D3-type scenario than D1, just call a spade a spade and say it. Otherwise, we're going to keep having the same endless debates because your starting point seems fundamentally different from everyone else's.

And not to sound like a broken record, but while I get that we *all* (myself 100% included) just want to finally know how this is all going to unfold - when, where, how many, how much money - until there are more formal announcements made, I really don't see the point in getting so riled up over speculation and theory. Ninety-five percent of these discussions are going to be moot soon enough, and it's not like we're the ones calling the shots. So why not just wait and see how things unfold . . . in the next 60-90 days? :)

 

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8 minutes ago, m-g-williams said:

. . . but if you're really more comfortable with a D3-type scenario than D1, just call a spade a spade and say it...

I did.

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...where teams like FC London and the Victoria Highlanders have been able to draw into four figures in a PDL context in the not so distant past as a way to build up a fully domestic D3 beneath USL and MLS...

 

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46 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The OHL and NBL Canada can both draw 5000+ in London. Soccer could do better than it did with PDL with the right setup, because drawing that many for something as low level as PDL was actually quite an achievement. Throw in something like Windsor, Kitchener, Hamilton (not at Ivor Wynne obviously!) and a TFC III team and you have the makings of a regional bus travel division. Something similar could be done in the Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City corridor, maybe also with the Maritimes cities but with a lower projected break even etc, and put a Canadian branding on the whole thing with a Memorial Cup type tournament at the end.

The NBL CAN draw 5,000+ in London. But not consistently. The average attendance for this season is 4,318. The next highest is St. John's 3,301. After that it is Niagara with 2,061. So only two of those cities would be in your range for getting 2,500-3,500 average attendance for a regional league.

On the other hand, the CHL numbers are much higher. Though I think if the CPL was getting these average attendances at a national level rather than a regional level, everyone on this board would be pretty stoked. Here are the top 8 average attendances in CHL this past season:

Quebec (9002)
London (8959)
Edmonton (8154)
Calgary (7579)
Halifax (7210)
Kitchener (6912)
Regina (6076)
Victoria (5307)

Notice anything telling? A lot of these cities have been linked with CPL clubs, though they definitely aren't going to be getting anywhere near those kind of numbers for soccer in a regional league.

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Even though they do manage it with regional U-20 bus travel leagues in the context of hockey? The Easton Report looked at what hockey does right to get hockey to work as a spectator sport on a relatively low budget in smaller markets, hence the suggested U-23 focus. Maybe it shouldn't have been so quickly ignored?

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Just now, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Even though they do manage it with regional U-20 bus travel leagues in the context of hockey? The Easton Report looked at what hockey does right to get hockey to work as a spectator sport on a relatively low budget in smaller markets, hence the suggested U-23 focus. Maybe it shouldn't have been so quickly ignored?

Comparing hockey to soccer is apples and oranges. You want to focus on smaller towns and cities for a regional league but the truth is, smaller towns and cities generally don't care about soccer.

I grew up in a small town in Ontario and soccer was at best the third most popular sport, AT BEST. Regional leagues work for hockey in Canada because these small towns go nuts for getting out and supporting junior hockey. You can't compare soccer, where its most popular in the bigger cities, to that

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1 minute ago, deschamp86 said:

I grew up in a small town in Ontario and soccer was at best the third most popular sport, AT BEST....

Good for you, but what does that have to do with London, Windsor, K/W and Hamilton? Cities of up to 500,000 or so that have large first generation immigrant communities from soccer loving countries cannot sensibly be described as "small town Ontario".

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Buses ? Are you guys serious ? Do we want a real pro league that attracts fans, good players and makes money or some 3rd/2nd rate League? 

 

If flights are too pricy right away , why doesn’t the CPL get a  sponsorship with Via Rail. European teams travel my Rail. Québec City to Windsor is covered. A team can get a train car to themselves. 

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4 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Good for you, but what does that have to do with London, Windsor, K/W and Hamilton? Cities of up to 500,000 or so that have large first generation immigrant communities from soccer loving countries cannot sensibly be described as "small town Ontario".

Your arguments seem to be all over the place and I can't exactly tell half the time what you are arguing for or against. You say there should be regional leagues that have "smaller" market teams in them. Then you name 3 of the 5 largest cities in Ontario that should be in it.

There is only a handful of cities in the entire country with the populations of the cities you named. So I bring up my experience in a smaller town, which would seem like it was relevant in what you were going for. But because it doesn't mesh in with your argument you brush it aside.

I imagine that you just hope to post enough for the other person to lose interest in engaging with you and consider it a victory for yourself.

Well bud, you did it. Congrats on your big win

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2 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

Buses ? Are you guys serious ? Do we want a real pro league that attracts fans, good players and makes money or some 3rd/2nd rate League? 

Guys?? There were multiple people arguing in favour of that?? I must have missed it

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