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CPL new teams speculation


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^^^

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On 2018/03/08 at 6:28 PM, Kurt-MTL said:

...That said, I would much prefer if CPL could go the Atlanta United route and invest in good stadiums, good coaching, and attracting talented young players to grow the league.

Difficult to argue with any of that obviously, but the thing to bear in mind is that it took over 20 years for MLS to put the foundation in for what teams like Atlanta United are doing now and there were lots of big name hasbeen signings to attract and maintain interest prior to that. The moratorium on further expansion into D2 and D3 level USSF leagues (after Ottawa were grandfathered in) that was imposed to create the conditions where something like CanPL would be the only available option for would be investors was driven to a large extent by people actively involved at the highest levels in Canadian soccer who didn't get the role they anticipated/craved when MLS arrived in the big three cities and felt marginalized/resentful in a North American environment where being a well-connected and qualified Canadian isn't always enough. It isn't something that there has been a huge groundswell of opinion for amongst ordinary soccer fans, so it's not a given that there will be huge crowds wanting to watch it just because there are lots of Canadians on the field, if an effort isn't made to appeal to people that really don't care about the MLS domestic player rule issue and just want to be entertained by some well-played high level soccer.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard
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On 3/7/2018 at 4:41 PM, HfxCeltic said:

This isn't constructive at all. I have probably never agreed with anything BBTB has posted and I'm really hoping someday he'll see the light, but from what I've read,  I don't think he's ever come right out and insulted anyone. He provides an unpopular opinion but is generally pretty civil. Telling someone you don't give a shit what they think will never help this whole thing progress; just makes you look like a prick.

The problem is that you can insult people while remaining civil at the same time.

BBTB's problem is that he comes from the arrogant types that only showed up when TFC was launched. They despised developing anything domestically because they felt that following TFC was all that was needed. They never support the national team or give support to other Canadian clubs. In fact, his type is basically any team that doesn't affiliate themselves to TFC/IMFC/VWFC are basically not considered to have the "interests" of Canadian soccer at heart. His arrogant attitude really came out when TFC won the MLS Cup, basically acting that the CPL isn't needed as TFC has given the answer needed to Canadian soccer.

The problem is that he has been doing this since day one (of TFC, that is) and he seems to degrade to the point that I wonder if his mental faculties are still intact. He feels now that the CanPL is a threat to his TFC and he would have no problem trying to wreck it, even if it means taking out god knows how many people along the way.

My overall beef is with those who fed his ego along the way (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE).

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^^^Classic example of building a strawman rather than dealing with what somebody has actually been writing. I was around as a paying customer for the original CSL and was one of very few people in London, Ont that could say they were at almost every game the London Lasers ever played in 1990 and 1992, along with the London Pro Soccer Society games in 1989. I watched the game of the week on TSN pretty much every week even when London didn't have a team and went to see games in Toronto and Hamilton sometimes when finances would allow. I used a different username on the old network54 board, so was around in Voyageurs terms long before 2005 and was on here when the whole CUSL saga unfolded.

Beyond that my argument is not that something like CanPL isn't needed, but that it is a very risky strategy and that the alternative of just using USL to slowly build up the number of D2 teams in playing standard and budget terms shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as a possibility for creating more pro level opportunities for Canadian players, if it proves impossible to put the pieces together for CanPL. I have also argued that the MLS teams should be part of whatever process takes place in terms of having affiliated teams rather than being viewed as a rival, so that all the stakeholders within Canadian pro soccer wind up pushing in the same direction. If that had been done, I suspect there would have been a CanPL launch announcement by now.

 

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6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Beyond that my argument is not that something like CanPL isn't needed, but that it is a very risky strategy and that the alternative of just using USL to slowly build up the number of D2 teams in playing standard and budget terms shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as a possibility for creating more pro level opportunities for Canadian players, if it proves impossible to put the pieces together for CanPL.

That's the investor's decision to make. They seemed to have found more value in investing in CPL than USL. Unless you have your own chips in the game, I will always assume that their business decisions are more sound than your opinion on risk assessment and potential long term ROI.

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I have also argued that the MLS teams should be part of whatever process takes place in terms of having affiliated teams rather than being viewed as a rival, so that all the stakeholders within Canadian pro soccer wind up pushing in the same direction. If that had been done, I suspect there would have been a CanPL launch announcement by now.

Instead of always blaming Canadian soccer and CanPL people, why don't you write a letter to TFC and the other MLS teams who seem to want to have it their way or the highway? You cannot do business with people like that.

It just shows that your bias because not once you ever acknowledged that MLS teams should change their attitude towards the project....always Canada soccer and CPL fault for not working with MLS.

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be the other way around?

Edited by Ansem
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On 17/03/2018 at 5:25 AM, dyslexic nam said:

Just to be clear, my post was a joke.  

No need to get too worked up over the thread. 

Your quick, two-word retort?  I took that as a mildly amusing joke and had a good chuckle.  

However, that doesn't excuse the whole thread.

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On 18/03/2018 at 6:10 AM, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I have also argued that the MLS teams should be part of whatever process takes place in terms of having affiliated teams rather than being viewed as a rival, so that all the stakeholders within Canadian pro soccer wind up pushing in the same direction. If that had been done, I suspect there would have been a CanPL launch announcement by now.

 

So sacrifice the perception of the league in order to add 1 reserve team and 2 clubs getting 5 free players? 

This argument keeps growing more silly with time. 

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On 3/17/2018 at 5:45 AM, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Fair point but I would argue that Canada does not need another 20 years of experimenting/floundering with big-name hasbeens as the foundation is already there now. Soccer is well and truly a successful spectator sport in Canada (thanks in no small part to MLS) and I believe the fans are sophisticated and knowledgeable enough to support clubs that invest in young, good quality players and put forward a professionalized, polished product (good stadiums, no football lines, etc). 

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5 hours ago, Kurt-MTL said:

Fair point but I would argue that Canada does not need another 20 years of experimenting/floundering with big-name hasbeens as the foundation is already there now. Soccer is well and truly a successful spectator sport in Canada (thanks in no small part to MLS) 

Until the league is a reality though this is just speculation.  Soccer has proven a successful spectator sport in the 3 MLS cities.  Nowhere else has it been proven.  I can't wait for the experiment to start but it is an experiment, make no mistake.  I'm from Hamilton and I have no idea how the team will draw.  I think 10000 would be difficult.  If it is run well it's possible in the long run but Barton Street Battalion aside I haven't sensed these CPL announcements even registering with the general population.  So much will depend on the right ownership groups and marketing plans in place.  People give BBTB a hard time here for having a different vision but I certainly agree with him that this league is not the slamdunk success some make it out to be.  Personally I think its a gamble we need to take and 2019 can't come soon enough but getting enough bums in the seats will be VERY hard work.

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The problem I think a lot of people also overlook is that CanPL isn't going to be close to MLS quality in playing standards terms unless they are willing to boost the budgets considerably from what has generally been rumoured, so there's a danger that some people will feel there has been a bit of a bait and switch once they see what is actually on offer as the local Andrea Lombardo that played something like Primavera in Italy but didn't quite make it for reasons that soon become obvious leads the line rather than Sebastian Giovinco. If you haven't done so before try watching the live USL webstreams that will be readily available on youtube this weekend and after a few minutes try to gauge whether you would be eager to regularly pay $40 to watch that level of soccer, if it was available in your city. There's a hardcore that will that is considerably larger than it used to be, but 8000 to 10000 as the floor on stadia still hints at very ambitious expectation levels.

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Toronto FC was a raging success with the likes of Andrea Lombardo and Marco Reda. Casual fans are willing to watch crap soccer in the right environment. Soccer matches are an event more so than a minor league baseball game. 

I'm not saying that the CPL is a homerun slam dunk, but let's not write it off before we see what it actually is. 

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3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The problem I think a lot of people also overlook is that CanPL isn't going to be close to MLS quality in playing standards terms unless they are willing to boost the budgets considerably from what has generally been rumoured, so there's a danger that some people will feel there has been a bit of a bait and switch once they see what is actually on offer as the local Andrea Lombardo that played something like Primavera in Italy but didn't quite make it for reasons that soon become obvious leads the line rather than Sebastian Giovinco. If you haven't done so before try watching the live USL webstreams that will be readily available on youtube this weekend and after a few minutes try to gauge whether you would be eager to regularly pay $40 to watch that level of soccer, if it was available in your city. There's a hardcore that will that is considerably larger than it used to be, but 8000 to 10000 as the floor on stadia still hints at very ambitious expectation levels.

You're talking like the rest of Canada is closely following TFC. The league's presence will be mainly outside of MLS markets. They aren't the Maple Leafs or the Blue Jays... Talk about putting TFC on a pedestal.

Edited by Ansem
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Not following where you are going with that, because I am well aware that TFC have a narrow niche appeal in ratings terms for pretty much anything other than MLS Cup or a playoff game against the Impact. All I am talking about here is whether the level of soccer CanPL would be able to provide is a high enough level of play to consistently capture a large paying audience in the cities that are likely to be involved when the quality is likely to be USL sort of level at best rather than something comparable to MLS. I strongly suspect that FCE crowds in the NASL provide a good indication of what would normally be doable in one of the largest available markets without papering the house with youth soccer group sales, while the example of the Ottawa Fury shows what can be done under similar circumstances with the latter approach. A significant step forward from the original CSL era in both cases but the books are not being balanced in financial terms and if investors are genuinely expecting more than that there could easily be major existential issues at the end of season one. Tom Fath appears to be telling them this from the inside judging from his concerns over sustainability, so they almost certainly will have been warned.

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26 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Pessimism free here.

 

Somewhere in Saskatoon...

Joe: Hey want to go see the CPL game between Sasktoon vs Halifax?

Bob: Nah, man... the level of play is below MLS, so I'll stay home and do nothing...

Joe: Yeah, I hear you...

:rolleyes:

In fairness there are probably a lot of people in MLS markets who have this same conversation about MLS quality being below a number of European leagues, and refuse to attend MLS games

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2 hours ago, Alex D said:

Toronto FC was a raging success with the likes of Andrea Lombardo and Marco Reda. Casual fans are willing to watch crap soccer in the right environment. Soccer matches are an event more so than a minor league baseball game. 

I'm not saying that the CPL is a homerun slam dunk, but let's not write it off before we see what it actually is. 

This. The marketing has to be (and I believe will be) centered around the atmosphere. Some of the talk about Canadian aspect will  aimed at certain niches (aka us), but it won't be what brings in the crowds

The problem with marketing the atmosphere is that it is a chicken and the egg problem. That's why a) I think they need to really need to go all in on marketing before the league launches, like advertising for season ticket sales during the upcoming world cup if they are ready and b ) close relationships with the supporters generating that atmosphere are key

That first half season will be pretty key in my opinion. If you can attract large enough crowds to generate a fun atmosphere, those crowds will self-sustain to a certain extent. If the atmosphere is poor off the bat I think it will be hard to recover

Edited by Complete Homer
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44 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

In fairness there are probably a lot of people in MLS markets who have this same conversation about MLS quality being below a number of European leagues, and refuse to attend MLS games

Those who refuse to see MLS are

  1. Latinos who prefer Liga MX (can't blame them)
  2. Americans who thinks that soccer is for beta males (Real Football *NFL*, NBA, MLB, NCAA, FTW "Murica F yeah")...then maybe hockey = No interest in soccer whatsoever
  3. Those who refuse MLS because of Euro football (which aren't on TV at the same time) are marginal at best. The top 2 reasons are mainly it.
Edited by Ansem
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11 minutes ago, gator said:

Of course the league will be below MLS quality at the beginning, I'm not sure how many of you watched MLS when it first started, it was very low quality, basically a notch above NCAA!

Ignoring inflation, if CPL's spending is actually reaching what has been reported by Milton, the average CPL salary will be in line with MLS' average salary the year TFC entered MLS. If people were fine with that level, they will be fine with CPL. Teams competing with MLS teams in Surrey and GTA may have issues, but quality shouldn't be a deciding factor in the majority of markets IMO 

Granted, a decade of inflation is still quite a bit, but it's still a useful a useful way to frame it to people

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