CPL new teams speculation

[1996]

2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

A lot depends on the attitude of the Rouge et Or given that's the only potentially viable stadium for use as is. The problem there is that the fieldturf is permanently marked and they may not want a rival attraction stealing their thunder in the fall:

 

If that's a non-starter, you have to build something and that's expensive to do and something would have probably emerged publicly by now in terms of the approval process as has happened in Surrey, Saskatoon and Halifax, if anything was at a relatively advanced stage as it would need to be to be ready in time for April 2019.

Yes that might be a problem but hopefully you never know something can be worked out, maybe in terms of field markings a new soccer only lined  turf can be installed during CPL games over the present football markings turf and taken out when the football team plays, I don't know if that can work but just thinking outside the box I guess.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There are tile systems that can be used, but they are quite expensive and the conversion process is non-trivial.

[coppercanuck]

I guess I should have edited my post above.

Fact - I listened to Oranges at Halftime

Opinion (dream) - Would love to see those cities

Opinion - Edmonton is too big a city to forget about.  Yes, I missed K/W and York, not on purpose.

[LAK]

11 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

There are tile systems that can be used, but they are quite expensive and the conversion process is non-trivial.

Another option for a few places would just be to replace the turf. The kind of turf that you paint on the football lines. That turn around (replacing turf) is relatively quick and it's the kind of thing that could be planned under the radar. Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton, Vancouver, have this kind of artificial turf. Regina, Laval University, McGill (alouettes home), Calgary do not. Who's to say that some investor in Quebec City, Montreal, Calgary hasn't worked out a deal to buy brand new artificial turf for those stadiums and for soccer to be played there? You wouldn't even start prep until spring anyway.

Having said that,  I think you're right about Laval...they don't like anybody coming to their territory.

Edited January 22, 2018 by LAK

[Prune_55]

16 minutes ago, LAK said:

Another option for a few places would just be to replace the turf. The kind of turf that you paint on the football lines. That turn around (replacing turf) is relatively quick and it's the kind of thing that could be planned under the radar. Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton, Vancouver, have this kind of artificial turf. Regina, Laval University, McGill (alouettes home), Calgary do not. Who's to say that some investor in Quebec City, Montreal, Calgary hasn't worked out a deal to buy brand new artificial turf for those stadiums and for soccer to be played there? You wouldn't even start prep until spring anyway.

Having said that,  I think you're right about Laval...they don't like anybody coming to their territory.

Does anyone know how many grass fields the CPL will have in 2019?

[matty]

Instead of York Region can we just say GTA?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, Prune_55 said:

Does anyone know how many grass fields the CPL will have in 2019?

Way back it was mentioned that it would probably only be Halifax in that regard if/when the league eventually launches.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

4 hours ago, LAK said:

...Who's to say that some investor in Quebec City, Montreal, Calgary hasn't worked out a deal to buy brand new artificial turf for those stadiums and for soccer to be played there?...

Agree that's a possible solution, but in each case there would be a process of approval and tender notices involved with the university or municipality in question and that would probably have left a publicly accessable paper trail by now given a July 2018 launch was the goal when CSA sanctioning was obtained.

[Prune_55]

14 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Way back it was mentioned that it would probably only be Halifax in that regard if/when the league eventually launches.

Thanks.

 

Hopefully there will be more. I can't stand watching matches on that stuff. I'm close to the Calgary Foothills SC - I'll try to find out where the Calgary CPL potential investor is thinking about putting the team in SW Calgary 

[MtlMario]

On 1/21/2018 at 12:15 PM, Rheo said:

As always your opinion with no proof BBTB

You talking to me ?  You talking to me?

[Initial B]

Just thought I'd add to my dream list of teams for a final, full, sustainable, 34-game season, 18-team, single table, from East to West and coast-to-coast CPL:

St. John's

Halifax

Moncton

Quebec City

Laval

Ottawa

York

Missisauga

Hamilton

Kitchener-Waterloo

London

Winnipeg

Regina

Saskatoon

Edmonton

Calgary

Fraser Valley

Victoria

 

[matty]

40 minutes ago, Initial B said:

York

Missisauga

Hamilton

Kitchener-Waterloo

London

That's one crowded southern Ontario. I know the league has talked about something like it but I kinda of hope they don't overload the the region and instead maybe do take a risk on the north and Sudbury if they do get to a point where the league is stable enough to support 14 teams.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The CSL had 5 teams in that area in 1990, so it's been tried before. The Rockets and Blizzard were even almost in York Region and Mississauga. When you think about where Canada's population is concentrated and where the interest in soccer is skewed towards due to immigration patterns it wouldn't be all that far-fetched to have something like that in southern Ontario, if they would tone down the crowd expectations a bit and lose the whole CFL stadium angle. I'd expect Windsor or St Catherines to be a factor long before Sudbury, because they have larger populations and a stronger soccer history going back many decades.

[Kent]

I would love to have 5 teams in that area when my kids are older and either want to come along or can be left to do their own thing. To be able to have a local team, plus 4 easy driveable opponents would be awesome! Of course this is all with the massive asterisk of this being awesome if it's sustainable.

For curiosity sake, here is the team population for that area in the old CSL (thanks BBTB for bringing up the historical precedent for 5 teams concurrently in that area!)

1987 - 3 (Toronto, North York, Hamilton)
1988 - 3 (Toronto, North York, Hamilton)
1989 - 3 (Toronto, North York, Hamilton)
1990 - 5 (Toronto, North York, Hamilton, Kitchener, London)
1991 - 4 (Toronto, North York, Hamilton, Kitchener)
1992 - 3 (Toronto, North York, London)

[HfxCeltic]

Clanachan noted 3-4 teams in southern Ontario on the podcast Rheo posted. Not sure if that was on launch vs interested groups, vs the eventual goal.

[matty]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The CSL had 5 teams in that area in 1990, so it's been tried before. The Rockets and Blizzard were even almost in York Region and Mississauga. When you think about where Canada's population is concentrated and where the interest in soccer is skewed towards due to immigration patterns it wouldn't be all that far-fetched to have something like that in southern Ontario, if they would tone down the crowd expectations a bit and lose the whole CFL stadium angle. I'd expect Windsor or St Catherines to be a factor long before Sudbury, because they have larger populations and a stronger soccer history going back many decades.

 

44 minutes ago, Kent said:

I would love to have 5 teams in that area when my kids are older and either want to come along or can be left to do their own thing. To be able to have a local team, plus 4 easy driveable opponents would be awesome! Of course this is all with the massive asterisk of this being awesome if it's sustainable.

For curiosity sake, here is the team population for that area in the old CSL (thanks BBTB for bringing up the historical precedent for 5 teams concurrently in that area!)

The problem is the existence of Toronto FC already. So you not only have a 6-six market (or 5 if they do aim for 4 like that pod said) but you have one mega team that already dominates media in the largest centre. On top of that was the historic falling apart of the CSL and, as BBTB has pointed out IIRC, the fickle drawing power for some teams in the region so you can't really say it works out historically.

I do agree these markets are more likely than somewhere up north but it is a little pipe dream of mine. As they are going into uncharted markets, it would be a cool one to see and given the near 800k pop up there is more than what Moncton and St. John's have in their provinces it could be a good little TV hit.

Edited January 30, 2018 by matty

[Kent]

4 hours ago, matty said:

 

The problem is the existence of Toronto FC already. So you not only have a 6-six market (or 5 if they do aim for 4 like that pod said) but you have one mega team that already dominates media in the largest centre. On top of that was the historic falling apart of the CSL and, as BBTB has pointed out IIRC, the fickle drawing power for some teams in the region so you can't really say it works out historically.

I do agree these markets are more likely than somewhere up north but it is a little pipe dream of mine. As they are going into uncharted markets, it would be a cool one to see and given the near 800k pop up there is more than what Moncton and St. John's have in their provinces it could be a good little TV hit.

When you said Sudbury I thought of Thunder Bay. Looked it up and it’s further behind in population than I thought (think it’s 160k for Sudbury and 100k for Thunder Bay) but I believe they do pretty well for attendance with their PDL team.

Seems like either (or 5 CPL teams in Southern Ontario) is a long way off, if ever.

[Macksam]

12 hours ago, matty said:

That's one crowded southern Ontario. I know the league has talked about something like it but I kinda of hope they don't overload the the region and instead maybe do take a risk on the north and Sudbury if they do get to a point where the league is stable enough to support 14 teams.

All ciites are an hour apart so it doesn’t really matter imo. The business model here are clubs that are locally driven.

10 hours ago, matty said:

 

The problem is the existence of Toronto FC already. So you not only have a 6-six market (or 5 if they do aim for 4 like that pod said) but you have one mega team that already dominates media in the largest centre. On top of that was the historic falling apart of the CSL and, as BBTB has pointed out IIRC, the fickle drawing power for some teams in the region so you can't really say it works out historically.

I do agree these markets are more likely than somewhere up north but it is a little pipe dream of mine. As they are going into uncharted markets, it would be a cool one to see and given the near 800k pop up there is more than what Moncton and St. John's have in their provinces it could be a good little TV hit.

TFC aren’t a mega team imo. As for history of clubs not drawing well, we’ll a Toronto based professional soccer club never really drew exceptionally well until TFC came into the scene. Things can change with the right approach.

[matty]

52 minutes ago, Macksam said:

All ciites are an hour apart so it doesn’t really matter imo. The business model here are clubs that are locally driven.

They're an hour apart but that's not that big a distance at all. It's very crowded and unless you launch all at once I don't see some teams outright having full support locally for the same reasons 1/3 of Ottawa seems to follow the Leafs or Habs over the Sens.

I'll likely happen as there's already talk from 3 of the cities and history in one but I'd just like it if instead of focusing on Southern Ontario they tried capturing the North of the province. It's 800k people and having a team there could be good for TV and expanding the youths being watched properly within Ontario.

52 minutes ago, Macksam said:

TFC aren’t a mega team imo. As for history of clubs not drawing well, we’ll a Toronto based professional soccer club never really drew exceptionally well until TFC came into the scene. Things can change with the right approach.

Saying "mega team" in the it's a bigger team in a bigger league with the fancy stadium and money backing sort of way and only addressing the drawing power because BBTB often to remind us of stuff like that in his arguments.

While 4 teams in the region could work if done right, TFC are a massive 5th wheel (especially if they continue to be dominate) and do make it difficult to see multiple teams (especially York and Mississauga) all doing the needed numbers with TFC looming and the potential shared fanbase of those interested in CPL. I personally think the magic number for the region, like MCs in a rap group, is 3.

But if they do have the backers and facilities and want to do it that's fine.

Edited January 31, 2018 by matty

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

3 hours ago, matty said:

They're an hour apart but that's not that big a distance at all....

London is its own market in sports terms and is very much out of Toronto's shadow in terms of what people decide to do with their leisure time. That's why the Knights and Lightning do so well in attendance compared to similar teams in the outer portions of the GTA. If the old JW Little was still around we could have been a contender, but TD Waterhouse has permanently marked fieldturf with no extra space left for soccer between the gridiron and the athletics track, and if 6000-10000 is going to be the benchmark of what should be achieved on crowds the ethnic social clubs that have been used for things like the NSL, PDL and L1O are not going to cut it, unfortunately. Baseball would fight tooth and nail to keep soccer out of Labatt Park, which would be the only other option, so like a lot of cities (including K/W) the lack of a suitable venue is a huge stumbling block.

Edited January 31, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Kent]

9 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

London is its own market in sports terms and is very much out of Toronto's shadow in terms of what people decide to do with their leisure time. That's why the Knights and Lightning do so well in attendance compared to similar teams in the outer portions of the GTA. If the old JW Little was still around we could have been a contender, but TD Waterhouse has permanently marked fieldturf with no extra space left for soccer between the gridiron and the athletics track, and if 6000-10000 is going to be the benchmark of what should be achieved on crowds the ethnic social clubs that have been used for things like the NSL, PDL and L1O are not going to cut it, unfortunately. Baseball would fight tooth and nail to keep soccer out of Labatt Park, which would be the only other option, so like a lot of cities (including K/W) the lack of a suitable venue is a huge stumbling block.

Are there any areas in London where you think there is room for a stadium to be built if the investors/interest was there?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Back in 2009 when USL Pro expansion appeared to be on the agenda for FC London before the CSA imposed their moratorium, Highbury at Oxford tended to mentioned as the possible location for a stadium.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=171977

Suspect it would have been something smaller than 6000-10000 that they had in mind at that point.

[to70]

Would there be any possibilty of putting a stadium on the old psychiatric hospital grounds in London? I remember taking my team to a tournament there a few years back and looked like there was tons of space there.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There was a huge fuss about London United potentially losing access to that space a few years back but I forget the gory details and haven't been following those kinds of issues all that closely over the last few years, because I no longer work in London and only get back occasionally. I was never fully clear whether they meant the stadium would be there or at JP II HS on the other side of Oxford, but my impression is that it would have been the latter. Think Fanshawe College a bit further out along Oxford might be another possibility, but don't think locations like that would work too well, because of how London is laid out in transport terms. The Knights have shown that the place to be is downtown because interest in them picked up a lot after they moved from their old arena down by the 401. I think a similar central location would be needed to make pro soccer work well. Labatt Park would be the place to be, in my opinion, but when the idea of London City moving in there was floated publicly by the late Harry Gauss about 15 years back the baseball crowd went berserk even though both soccer and football were played there a lot in addition to baseball in the past, if you go back to the 60s and 70s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Lords

[SpursFlu]

http://www.highlandersfc.ca/news/highlanders-fc-announce-new-ownership-group

I would say this puts the Highlanders back on the radar. Based on the new owners profile, I wouldn't say deep deep pockets but definitely bringing some bucks to the table. Interesting snippet at the bottom of the article. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by SpursFlu