CPL new teams speculation

[SpursFlu]

I'm grateful for for everyone who has invested time money effort to make things happen. But I think the gold medal goes to Pacific and Halifax. They really made things happen from complete scratch. That's what happens when politics and bs gets pushed aside and everyone starts pulling in the same direction 

[youllneverwalkalone]

55 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I dont know...

I think the league shouldn't deviate from it's strategies occupimy all the markets that dont have football.

I think that a presence in the 3 cities main suburbs is good enough for CPL 1.0. Surrounding them effectively slow the growth they would encounter outside their city if CPL wasn't around

Toronto- York & Mississauga 

Vancouver- Fraser Valley 

Montreal-Laval

The big 3 cities can support more than one club and CPL will get in one way or another. Once the sanctioning is cleared out after 2026 World Cup, we'll have a better idea then.

For Fraser Valley, Surrey would be the best but if Langley makes a club happen faster, why not?

Also, nothing prevents a relocation from Langley to Surrey in the future.

 

I don't really disagree with most of this. I like pretty much all your posts on all things CPL. I would look at Vancouver differently than Toronto and Montreal. Again, if you want to coexist with the Caps, choose Surrey Central. But the real interesting point here, that is different than Toronto (and likely Montreal) is that you could kill the Caps right now. Not saying I agree with that mentality for the game in general, but it's worth considering. And they would deserve it to a certain degree.

[SpursFlu]

5 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I don't really disagree with most of this. I like pretty much all your posts on all things CPL. I would look at Vancouver differently than Toronto and Montreal. Again, if you want to coexist with the Caps, choose Surrey Central. But the real interesting point here, that is different than Toronto (and likely Montreal) is that you could kill the Caps right now. Not saying I agree with that mentality for the game in general, but it's worth considering. And they would deserve it to a certain degree.

The problem with Surrey Central is only 1 thing. It's too valuable of a market right now to not build anything on a large scale. It would work if they would partner with the BC Lions. But there are too many large scale projects going on there to tie up that sort of footprint on a 7k seat stadium. You would need 20k plus, Casino or entertainment options, etc etc. I'm not sure CPL is big enough to justify all that as the main solo tenant 

Ok maybe 2 things.. your getting a little close to the Whitecaps market and likely moving too far from the untapped Abbotsford east FV market

Edited March 8, 2020 by SpursFlu

[youllneverwalkalone]

Whitecaps are down to 8k season ticket holders. SpursFlu one of only five ppl posting on the Southsiders board. The Whitecaps have no market that is not up for grabs right now.

I agree though, you'd have to go 10k+ in Surrey. 

[SpursFlu]

There are many reasons why the Southsiders board is dead. Interest in the team is pretty far down that list. Have you ever tried getting someone from Vancouver go to Surrey? Like gag me with a spoon

Edited March 8, 2020 by SpursFlu

[narduch]

22 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I don't really disagree with most of this. I like pretty much all your posts on all things CPL. I would look at Vancouver differently than Toronto and Montreal. Again, if you want to coexist with the Caps, choose Surrey Central. But the real interesting point here, that is different than Toronto (and likely Montreal) is that you could kill the Caps right now. Not saying I agree with that mentality for the game in general, but it's worth considering. And they would deserve it to a certain degree.

I actually had similar thoughts about the Toronto market during the Aaron Winter/Paul Mariner days. But that has passed now.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Lots of people from Vancouver went/would go to Swangard or similar location. You'd only go Surrey to co-exist.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

33 minutes ago, narduch said:

I actually had similar thoughts about the Toronto market during the Aaron Winter/Paul Mariner days. But that has passed now.

There was lots of talk on messageboards at that point that a USSF sanctioned D2 level team could make some headway in the GTA given how disenchanted the fan base were. The parity that MLS encourages means the Whitecaps can be expected to bounce back to respectability again soon. Even if that's not likely to be at Leiwicke and Giovinco sort of levels, basing an investment decision on the assumption that they are in some sort of irreversible death spiral would be a risky move for a CanPL investor. People will tend to gravitate to the higher budget product, so the lower budget team could quickly wind up in the Y9 on a weeknight scenario in interest terms unless they distance themselves sufficiently so that they can still carve out their own significant niche when the Whitecaps are at a peak in interest terms rather than a trough.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[youllneverwalkalone]

And if Vancouverites won't take a SkyTrain direct to Surrey, no way are they going to go to Langley. Neither will people from Burnaby, New West, Coquitlam. Except me. I'll pack the family up every game but with the knowledge that it could have been better.

[SpursFlu]

The team is not for those people. Its kinda simple. How do people from Burnaby get to Langford to watch Pacific play? The answer is, they dont

[youllneverwalkalone]

I do. PFC season ticket holder from New West here. At least one match per year based on historical data. I'll go to Langley if I have to for the CPL but I don't know many people that would follow and that's why it would fail. Pacific has people coming from all over the Island. If you relied on Langford, you'd get less than 500. Langley isn't that much bigger than Langford ffs.

You need the critical mass of Burnaby, Coquitlam, North Van, New West, Port Moody to make a 2nd pro club work on the mainland.

[youllneverwalkalone]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

There was lots of talk on messageboards at that point that a USSF sanctioned D2 level team could make some headway in the GTA given how disenchanted the fan base were. The parity that MLS encourages means the Whitecaps can be expected to bounce back to respectability again soon. Even if that's not likely to be at Leiwicke and Giovinco sort of levels, basing an investment decision on the assumption that they are in some sort of irreversible death spiral would be a risky move for a CanPL investor. People will tend to gravitate to the higher budget product, so the lower budget team could quickly wind up in the Y9 on a weeknight scenario in interest terms unless they distance themselves sufficiently so that they can carve out their own niche.

I can understand this perspective in Toronto. Here it's different. It's based 100% on the atmosphere in the ground which can't recover. An open air stadium will draw two key demographics. Casuals out for something to do and Euro snobs who think MLS is shit anyhow.

Edited March 8, 2020 by youllneverwalkalone

[SpursFlu]

Anyways.. the lineups at BC Ferries for the New West crowd going to Langford must be insane. Congrats to you for being a 1 game a year super fan and I guess more importantly putting your money in. But yah lets keep the conversation on planet earth

[Impactsupporter]

1 hour ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

You need the critical mass of Burnaby, Coquitlam, North Van, New West, Port Moody to make a 2nd pro club work on the mainland.

OK, BUT will the CanPL team be a Vancouver team or a Fraser Valley team??

And what city will draw from both Metro Vancouver and the Fraser Valley region, Surrey, Langley or Burnaby??

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

The team is not for those people. Its kinda simple. How do people from Burnaby get to Langford to watch Pacific play? The answer is, they dont

I have to agree here...a Fraser Valley team isn't being built for downtown Vancouver residents...it would be to lockdown Fraser Valley. 

Potential ownership will care more if people from Surrey or in the valley will eventually use the skytrain to get to Langley/drive to the stadium than if Vancouverites will transit/drive to it.

However, if there was another giant like Atletico (PSG-Downtown Montreal, Roma in North York or East Hatbour or Chinese/Saudi/Local mega-billionaires in Vancouver/Burnaby) wanted a team in the core 3 cities, it would be hard for CPL to say no. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

I think that the Whitecaps can get their fans back if they win. I mean in the sense of drawing their 20 thousand. In Vancouver there is a fairly large young adult set who want to be able to buy season's tickets with friends and know they have a regular outing. Then there are historical soccer fans who want to watch the game, but there are certain minimums they expect. Thing is, if the team is stinking out, that cuts into the party fans and into the soccer fans.  You have to have a good atmosphere,  and for that winning helps a lot: just look at Canada in Rugby 7s this weekend at BC Place. 

Any proposal for a CPL team has to have a clear identity, and Surrey has it tough. You want to reasonably expect fans to come out for a game-day experience, so the stadium atmosphere is important (not just the design but also that). Then fans would want to identify with the team, like the way Pacific is clearly branded to be a Vancouver Island team, which is smart.

I would dare to say the south shore of the Saint Lawrence, in Laval, would work better as an Impact alternative than Surrey as a legit Whitecaps alternative, it would be a viable counterpoint. We'll see how York9 evolves, the team looks fine, but that stadium and the image they are selling does not seem to help.

All told, though I'd love to have a Greater Vancouver CPL team to support, I feel better about the prospects of Saskatoon or Québec City right now, as I would about Moncton and probably certain cities in Ontario who would put 5-6000 in a stadium, like London.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Unnamed Trialist

[SthMelbRed]

I'm of no doubt that the Vancouver Whitecaps will still be around long after the dip shits in the Southsiders have packed up and moved on. With all due respect to certain individual members of the group, who seem pretty sound, you'd be hard pressed to find a more clueless, negative bunch at any sports ground in Canada. 

[SpursFlu]

There were over 22k at the opening game so how have they lost their fans? I would say the demographics are changing at the games just from looking around. The hipster Cascadia thing has diminished a bit. For instance I play every Saturday morning with a group of about 30 new Canadians. A handful went to their first Caps game and they were giving me their impressions yesterday. The group had all been in Vancouver for about 1 year. This is definitely the next frontier of Caps supporters and it's really starting to show around the stadium 

Edited March 9, 2020 by SpursFlu

[Ansem]

So I'm not very knowledgeable about Metro Vancouver so I did some digging. Swanguard looks like an amazing location for CPL within the Metro Vancouver area.

If a deep pocket investor had eyes on that stadium, I think it would be an instant hit but you'd have to satisfy the city to become the main tenant.

Also, a CPL team in Burnaby doesn't mean you can't have a club in Fraser Valley, which is what CPL wants anyways...derbies.

So questions:

1-I think making that stadium a CPL venue requires investment in upgrades but also the track field would have to be removed. Is it feasible/enough space to build another one next to the stadium? I'm guessing this would have to be at the club paying for this.

2-If there's a coexistence possible between CPL and future BCL1 club at the stadium, that's more dates for the venue and good for the city. Wouldn't CPL damage BCL1 club there?

3-What would it take to convince the city to make the CPL club main tenant?

4-What about where Empire Field used to be?

5- Can Burnaby and Whitecaps coexist without cannibalizing one another? 

6-What identity? Vancouver? Burnaby? Metro Vancouver? BC? 

[youllneverwalkalone]

My guess is that ownership funds the ground build, which would be  pop-up in nature for a reasonable rent charge going forward, the city funds the relocation of the track, provides the game day staff and takes the concessions.Commercial/Industrial triple net here is off the charts expensive, so paying $5-$10m on a retrofit would have a pretty quick payback period if you move in rent/tax free.

My sense is that Empire wouldn't go back to a pop-up as it's now community use. There may be an option for a permanent ground at Hastings Race Course. Rumours that this property might be divested by the City of Vancouver for development.

[nfitz]

On 3/8/2020 at 12:48 AM, Lofty said:

The Left wing extremists think everybody is a white supremacist these days, haven't you heard?

What left-wing extremists? I can't remember the last time I saw a Marxist or Communist protest or anything!

Yet no one would deny that white extremists are active. Why create straw men? And what does this have to do with new soccer teams?

[vancanman]

15 hours ago, Ansem said:

So I'm not very knowledgeable about Metro Vancouver so I did some digging. Swanguard looks like an amazing location for CPL within the Metro Vancouver area.

If a deep pocket investor had eyes on that stadium, I think it would be an instant hit but you'd have to satisfy the city to become the main tenant.

Also, a CPL team in Burnaby doesn't mean you can't have a club in Fraser Valley, which is what CPL wants anyways...derbies.

So questions:

1-I think making that stadium a CPL venue requires investment in upgrades but also the track field would have to be removed. Is it feasible/enough space to build another one next to the stadium? I'm guessing this would have to be at the club paying for this.

2-If there's a coexistence possible between CPL and future BCL1 club at the stadium, that's more dates for the venue and good for the city. Wouldn't CPL damage BCL1 club there?

3-What would it take to convince the city to make the CPL club main tenant?

4-What about where Empire Field used to be?

5- Can Burnaby and Whitecaps coexist without cannibalizing one another? 

6-What identity? Vancouver? Burnaby? Metro Vancouver? BC? 

I don't blame you for thinking Swangard would be ideal.  It certainly appears that way, sitting between two stations (about a five-minute walk), nice view of the mountains and trees, and a great location far enough away from BC Place Toilet, but just across the street from Vancouver in the city of Burnaby.  However, it has one down side, which is the City of Burnaby.  They won't let anyone touch that track, and they're not very footie-friendly.  When there used to be World Cup Qualifiers there, Canada couldn't practise the there because the away team (rightfully so) would demand the opportunity to have a run out on the pitch, and the knuckle-scrapers at Burnaby City Hall would say, "That's enough.  You can have a match and someone can run on it for an hour or so.  Otherwise, get lost."

The PNE, where Empire Field was, was another great location.  That temporary stadium was almost as nice as the original Empire Stadium, and with a much better pitch.  The turf at Empire Stadium was 500 area rugs from Ikea of various shades of green, stapled together.  I digress.  You're right, that was another excellent location, other than public transport.  Since tearing down the stadium, the PNE (similar to Toronto's CNE, I presume) has done a bunch of very careful landscaping and other crap to make the area look as if someone's done some very careful landscaping.  You know, an obviously placed shrubbery here and there, and some fakey-looking bridge that doesn't really go over anything except the level ground underneath it.  Nice job, if you like that sort of thing.  I think they left one fake turf field, with no room for any stands.

[youllneverwalkalone]

8 hours ago, vancanman said:

I don't blame you for thinking Swangard would be ideal.  It certainly appears that way, sitting between two stations (about a five-minute walk), nice view of the mountains and trees, and a great location far enough away from BC Place Toilet, but just across the street from Vancouver in the city of Burnaby.  However, it has one down side, which is the City of Burnaby.  They won't let anyone touch that track, and they're not very footie-friendly.  

New government, new attitude.

[CDNFootballer]

City of Burnaby will not expand Swangard, its been attempted and discussed before and they will not expand further onto Central Park where its situated. Most the 86ers/Caps were able to get was some extra seating opposite the main grandstand which brought it close to 6K capacity.

Swangard is also literally just across the street from Vancouver and much too close to the Caps market. If you want a CPL team to fail put it there.

A Metro Vancouver/Fraser Valley team must be across the river imo, Surrey would have been great but it didn't work out, Langley at the LEC is the most likely location now and apparently open to accommodate a CPL club and draw from Langley, Surrey, Abbotsford, Mission, Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, Port Coquitlam, and Coquitlam.

[Shortdutchcanuck]

2 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

Langley at the LEC is the most likely location now and apparently open to accommodate a CPL club and draw from Langley, Surrey, Abbotsford, Mission, Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, Port Coquitlam, and Coquitlam.

Langley8 FC it is then.