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CPL new teams speculation

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2 hours ago, Initial B said:

Just want to point out that WC 2002 was held in both South Korea and Japan, so there's previous precedent. The CAS ruling against Silva vs MLS regarding Pro-Rel stated that MLS is a closed league of clubs that paid for the privilege to join and FIFA did not appeal is another precedent. The recognition that the US and Australia are special cases is yet another. Law is built on previous precedents and I don't think FIFA is going to take on a case that will drain organization funds if it doesn't think it can win. They would probably argue that money spent on litigation would be better spent on helping poorer countries developing the beautiful game (or lining their own pockets). Heck, they might even consider forcing a move of the Canadian MLS clubs to be detrimental to the development of soccer in this country and fight against it.

Ansem, I understand your desire to have the MLS clubs join CanPL as a means of ensuring the new league's sustainability and your desire to not appear inferior to the two big CONCACAF Leagues. But I feel that the desire of MLSE is not to be confined to a smaller stage and they have the pockets to make it unpalatable for FIFA to go after them. CanPL is meant to develop Canadian talent, MLS wants to become a top 5 world league and appears to be offloading it's development of players (even those through it's academies) to USL (except for the really cheap owners). Cascadia clashes have over 40 years of history. You really think Whitecaps (or their supporters) want to give that up? TFC-Impact clashes are one of the most intense rivalries in the MLS Eastern Conference and I don't think MLS (and especially TSN) wants to lose that.

If FIFA invokes Article 73 expect a long, drawn out legal process where the only winners will be the lawyers.

Excellent post, thank you.

I think the way for CPL to reclaim those three markets for Canada is to grow big and strong in its own right and steadily encroach on their viability in MLS until they decide to throw in the towel. Good old fashioned competition.

In the meantime, I agree that these three MLS franchises won't be forced out the way Ottawa were.

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Unfortunately I think the only way the 3 Cdn MLS teams leave MLS is if MLS kicks them out. But Saputo already left one league and helped create another league before, so who the f*&% knows what could happen

.

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1 hour ago, MtlMario said:

Unfortunately I think the only way the 3 Cdn MLS teams leave MLS is if MLS kicks them out. But Saputo already left one league and helped create another league before, so who the f*&% knows what could happen

The most reasonable scenario for the Canadian MLS clubs being pushed out of that league would come from potential franchise holders in the US. If major ownership groups with legit proposals were to come along and be told they could not have a franchise as none were available, they could propose, using FIFA regulations even and with US Soccer support, that certain franchises should be put up for sale.

American leagues with Canadian teams have, in the past, found it easy to pick on Canadian clubs, thinking of Expos (which still irks me terribly), and Grizzlies. It is also true this happens internally in the US, I know the situation in Seattle and the efforts to get an NBA team back in the city are considerable, usually involving picking on certain existing franchises (the Kings for example).

Faced with major buyout proposals, that could happen. But it would mean the end of those MLS teams, it is erroneous to think they'd transfer over into CPL. We would not get Whitecaps or Impact in CPL, a void would open up and a new ownership group would have to walk in. Those owners would have no obligation to use the windfall to bankroll a strong CPL club. Not even a scenario where one owner might make the move, as seen with Hunt in Ottawa, would be ensured.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Initial B said:

Ansem, I understand your desire to have the MLS clubs join CanPL as a means of ensuring the new league's sustainability and your desire to not appear inferior to the two big CONCACAF Leagues.

That almost sounded condescending.

You're misunderstanding me. I just want CPL to be able to reach it's full potential. It's really not about the 3 MLS teams joining CPL, it's more so about being "normal" like the overwhelming majority of the leagues out there and not be in a cross-border situation 

I've said it before, if Canadians we're domestic in MLS or Americans counted as foreigners on Canadian clubs, I honestly wouldn't care as much about those 3 staying in MLS but that's not the case is it.

It be nice for Canadian dollars be reinvested in a Canadian league who wants to grow the talent and the league here. That unfair roster rule is my biggest problem

13 hours ago, Initial B said:

But I feel that the desire of MLSE is not to be confined to a smaller stage and they have the pockets to make it unpalatable for FIFA to go after them

FIFA can make Brazil suspend it's own laws but they'd somehow be petrified of MLSE...Sure 😊

13 hours ago, Initial B said:

MLS wants to become a top 5 world league and appears to be offloading it's development of players (even those through it's academies) to USL (except for the really cheap owners).

A)They will NEVER be a top 5 world league

B)MLS should really embrace being a seller/developmental league as well which they aren't. So sure you can be blinded by the salaries and names they attract but that's not really helping Americans who have seen their minutes dropped sharply.

The snubbing of MLS by Europe is really about them claiming/trying to be a world top league by throwing cash around and doing it wrong. They see it and roll their eyes.

Big deal that TFC spends $20M on salaries, there's no way in hell the DPs see that kind of money in Europe. They might spend $20M but the team ain't playing like it. The league has to overpay for talent... really not that hard to understand... 

13 hours ago, Initial B said:

Cascadia clashes have over 40 years of history. You really think Whitecaps (or their supporters) want to give that up? TFC-Impact clashes are one of the most intense rivalries in the MLS Eastern Conference and I don't think MLS (and especially TSN) wants to lose that.

I'm more concerned about the good of Canadian soccer as a whole than the financial health of 3 billionaire ownership and their fans. What about the rest of the country being sick and tired of missing world cups?

I embraced MLS just as hard as anyone else. I used to watch EVERY games with Canadians clubs was a hardcore fan of MTL. But over the years, I just got tired of missing World Cup after World Cup, not even able to reach the HEX and youth teams underperforming. 

MLS was supposed to fix that but looking at the roster rules and guys like Laryea not starting regularly because Team America prefers to play more Yanks than Canadians even during the freaking Canadian Championship...I mean really? Look at ZBG being benched in MTL, Fraser not playing enough minutes, even Cornelius minutes were not where it should have been until injuries 

Nah man, you got me all wrong. I dont care about CPL being below Liga MX, and MLS. I would fully embrace CPL being a top 5 and be like Ligue 1 France which is a top 5 Euro league and it's strongest clubs can compete in CL but with a strong emphasis/track record at developing French players.

Ligue 1 might not be the strongest league but France have strong & DEEP team. For me it's really about that.

MLS is what it is, a show, entertainment and they do a great job but trying to be like the other big 4 leagues is a mistake and like you said they leave the developmental burden to USL???

morgan freeman good luck GIF

Edited by Ansem

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13 hours ago, Initial B said:

. Cascadia clashes have over 40 years of history. You really think Whitecaps (or their supporters) want to give that up?

As someone who attended those clashes 40 years ago and donated to the Cascadia Cup, I think that the Cascadia clashes have lost their shine over the years.

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6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That almost sounded condescending.

You're misunderstanding me. I just want CPL to be able to reach it's full potential. It's really not about the 3 MLS teams joining CPL, it's more so about being "normal" like the overwhelming majority of the leagues out there and not be in a cross-border situation 

I've said it before, if Canadians we're domestic in MLS or Americans counted as foreigners on Canadian clubs, I honestly wouldn't care as much about those 3 staying in MLS but that's not the case.

Sure 😊

A)They will NEVER be a top 5 world league

B)MLS should really embrace being a seller/developmental league as well which they aren't. So sure you can be blinded by the salaries and names they attract but that's not really helping Americans who have seen their minutes dropped sharply.

I don't think we should envy their model one bit

I'm more concerned about the good of Canadian soccer as a whole than the financial health of 3 billionaire ownership and their fans.

I embraced MLS just as hard as anyone else. I used to watch EVERY games with Canadians clubs was a hardcore fan of MTL. But over the years, I just got tired of missing World Cup after World Cup, not even able to reach the HEX and youth teams underperforming. 

MLS was supposed to fix that but looking at the roster rules and guys like Laryea not starting regularly because Team America prefers to play more Yanks than Canadians even during the freaking Canadian Championship...I mean really? Look at ZBG being benched in MTL, Fraser not playing enough minutes, even Cornelius minutes were not where it should have been until injuries 

Nah man, you got me all wrong. I dont care about CPL being below Liga MX, and MLS. I would fully embrace CPL being a top 5 and be like Ligue 1 France which is a top 5 Euro league and it's strongest clubs can compete in CL but with a strong emphasis/track record at developing French players.

Ligue 1 might not be the strongest league but France have strong & DEEP team. For me it's really about that.

MLS is what it is, a show, entertainment and they do a great job but trying to be like the other big 4 leagues is a mistake and like you said they leave the developmental burden to USL???

morgan freeman good luck GIF

TFC actually is just as Canadian as American, 10 Canadians and 10 Americans are currently among the 28 on the first team. The other 8 are international and two that count as domestics including one who is a Canadian resident. Richie was a revelation for the Reds last year with a breakout season after not getting much of an opportunity in Orlando. Liam has a great chance to show his stuff with Michael Bradley's injury. They also have on of the more exciting young Canadians in Jayden Nelson on the roster too. Maybe the one concession out of all this will be Americans no longer being counted as domestic players for the Canadian teams. The development of the CPL will go along way in making a rule change a lot more viable than it was when TFC joined MLS in 2007. TFC has a history of homegrown players toiling on the training ground for a year or two, only to be released and see out their playing days in the CSL, never to get another pro shot. That is the difference between then an now. 

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7 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Faced with major buyout proposals, that could happen. But it would mean the end of those MLS teams, it is erroneous to think they'd transfer over into CPL. We would not get Whitecaps or Impact in CPL, a void would open up and a new ownership group would have to walk in. Those owners would have no obligation to use the windfall to bankroll a strong CPL club. Not even a scenario where one owner might make the move, as seen with Hunt in Ottawa, would be ensured.

Never said they'd transfer in CPL, that can't happen. If they are denied a US sanction one day they a choice

A) keep the franchises and relocate 

B)Sell and relaunch in CPL

C)Sell and get out of football - the void you're talking about...would lead to other investors partnering to launch their own teams in those cities.

It really isn't about the 3 teams, it's more so about CONCACAF potentially not wanting cross-border leagues where there's no need for it.

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6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Never said they'd transfer in CPL, that can't happen. If they are denied a US sanction one day they a choice

A) keep the franchises and relocate 

B)Sell and relaunch in CPL

C)Sell and get out of football - the void you're talking about...would lead to other investors partnering to launch their own teams in those cities.

It really isn't about the 3 teams, it's more so about CONCACAF potentially not wanting cross-border leagues where there's no need for it.

I am not really arguing, but was looking a few days ago at the all Caribbean league that lasted 3 years in the mid 90s. It would actually make sense, providing a higher level competition for the top clubs. Except for having national federations rather reticent to give up their powers. I would say that the way the new Concacaf club competitions are working in the Caribbean only partially compensate this.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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3 minutes ago, Cblake said:

TFC actually is just as Canadian as American, 10 Canadians and 10 Americans are currently among the 28 on the first team. The other 8 are international and two that count as domestics including one who is a Canadian resident. Richie was a revelation for the Reds last year with a breakout season after not getting much of an opportunity in Orlando. Liam has a great chance to show his stuff with Michael Bradley's injury. They also have on of the more exciting young Canadians in Jayden Nelson on the roster too.

Not good enough if they aren't playing more. They are being wasted if they aren't playing more. No wonder we lack depth on the National team, like Floro and Zambrano said, the problem isn't talent, it's the lack of minutes at club level.

If I'm talking lack of minutes for talented Canadian kids on Canadians clubs, there's a problem here. I care more about a stronger, deeper and consistent national team than the entertainment of MLS fans.

TFC can be on  winning streak, so what??? We're on path to miss the HEX again, and potentially another world cup. 

3 minutes ago, Cblake said:

Maybe the one concession out of all this will be Americans no longer being counted as domestic players for the Canadian teams.

They'll never agree to it.

8 minutes ago, Cblake said:

The development of the CPL will go along way in making a rule change a lot more viable than it was when TFC joined MLS in 2007. TFC has a history of homegrown players toiling on the training ground for a year or two, only to be released and see out their playing days in the CSL, never to get another pro shot. That is the difference between then an now. 

How sure are you that the 3 teams are interested in a change of rule? By having BOTH Canadians and Americans as domestics, they get their cake and eat it to at the expense of young Canadians who could use the playing time.

That's why I'm against the whole "let's just leave them alone" crap.

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11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Not good enough if they aren't playing more. They are being wasted if they aren't playing more. No wonder we lack depth on the National team, like Floro and Zambrano said, the problem isn't talent, it's the lack of minutes at club level.

If I'm talking lack of minutes for talented Canadian kids on Canadians clubs, there's a problem here. I care more about a stronger, deeper and consistent national team than the entertainment of MLS fans.

TFC can be on  winning streak, so what??? We're on path to miss the HEX again, and potentially another world cup. 

They'll never agree to it.

How sure are you that the 3 teams are interested in a change of rule? By having BOTH Canadians and Americans as domestics, they get their cake and eat it to at the expense of young Canadians who could use the playing time.

That's why I'm against the whole "let's just leave them alone" crap.

The whole MLS structure is absurd. It’s designed to produce American players, we’re guests in their league. 

College drafts are the primary vehicle for player acquisition in MLS (at least they have been, some clubs now have academies). Those drafts take a 22/3 yr old (who has already missed his most formative football years by playing at an amateur college level) and plop him on the bench of an MLS club while he ‘develops’ until he’s in his mid-late twenties! Naturally the vast majority of drafted players are American. 

The Canadian clubs in MLS just happen to be located in Canada. Like franchises from other American leagues, the location of the actual franchise has little to nothing to do with its roster composition. This is perhaps what I hate most about MLS. I love that most soccer clubs around the world have several locally produced players. 
 

Over the last few years, the Canadian MLS clubs have started to make some effort to produce their own players, but there is no incentive for them to do it, so it remains fairly ancillary. They could just as easily (and without having to do any development at all) field a bunch of American college players. TFC might have ‘as many Canadians as Americans’ but that in and of itself is ridiculous! Americans should be foreign players in our clubs, just as we are in theirs. 
 

 

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33 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Not good enough if they aren't playing more. They are being wasted if they aren't playing more. No wonder we lack depth on the National team, like Floro and Zambrano said, the problem isn't talent, it's the lack of minutes at club level.

If I'm talking lack of minutes for talented Canadian kids on Canadians clubs, there's a problem here. I care more about a stronger, deeper and consistent national team than the entertainment of MLS fans.

TFC can be on  winning streak, so what??? We're on path to miss the HEX again, and potentially another world cup. 

They'll never agree to it.

How sure are you that the 3 teams are interested in a change of rule? By having BOTH Canadians and Americans as domestics, they get their cake and eat it to at the expense of young Canadians who could use the playing time.

That's why I'm against the whole "let's just leave them alone" crap.

May it not be their choice to agree to it if CSA in hand with Victor CONCACAF push it on them , with the objective being Canadian opportunities?

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Someone really needs to start a separate thread on sanctioning and move the debate there. So this thread can be about CPL expansion again. 

I will say this though. TFC having so many Americans is a joke. And MLS is struggling at developing young domestic talent on both sides of the border. 

Also I doubt the CSA moves to force the MLS clubs to CPL. Hell they were allowing Fury to continue in USL. Fury pulled the plug on their own. 

Edited by narduch

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53 minutes ago, narduch said:

...Fury pulled the plug on their own. 

...and the FC Miami and Atletico Ottawa deals happened suspiciously quickly afterwards meaning they were probably effectively paid to go away. Not so easy to do that with the three MLS franchises.

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1 hour ago, Ams1984 said:

The whole MLS structure is absurd. It’s designed to produce American players, we’re guests in their league. 

College drafts are the primary vehicle for player acquisition in MLS (at least they have been, some clubs now have academies). Those drafts take a 22/3 yr old (who has already missed his most formative football years by playing at an amateur college level) and plop him on the bench of an MLS club while he ‘develops’ until he’s in his mid-late twenties! Naturally the vast majority of drafted players are American. 

The Canadian clubs in MLS just happen to be located in Canada. Like franchises from other American leagues, the location of the actual franchise has little to nothing to do with its roster composition. This is perhaps what I hate most about MLS. I love that most soccer clubs around the world have several locally produced players. 
 

Over the last few years, the Canadian MLS clubs have started to make some effort to produce their own players, but there is no incentive for them to do it, so it remains fairly ancillary. They could just as easily (and without having to do any development at all) field a bunch of American college players. TFC might have ‘as many Canadians as Americans’ but that in and of itself is ridiculous! Americans should be foreign players in our clubs, just as we are in theirs. 

Very little of this has been true about MLS for about a decade. 

The days of American college kids dominating the landscape of the league are long gone. MLS has its (many) flaws, but I wish people on here would update their arguments to show that they’re actually informed rather than relying on tired stereotypes.

And ya, none of this never ending conversation has anything to do with the CPL...

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24 minutes ago, RS said:

Very little of this has been true about MLS for about a decade. 

The days of American college kids dominating the landscape of the league are long gone. MLS has its (many) flaws, but I wish people on here would update their arguments to show that they’re actually informed rather than relying on tired stereotypes.

And ya, none of this never ending conversation has anything to do with the CPL...

I watch lots of MLS, and I have done since ‘96. It’s not a stereotype, it’s a fact. The college draft is the primary vehicle for player ‘development’ in MLS. It may be less true than in 1996 but it remains true. And all of this has to do with CPL because the truth of it reinforces the need for the CPL. 

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2 minutes ago, Ams1984 said:

I watch lots of MLS, and I have done since ‘96. It’s not a stereotype, it’s a fact. The college draft is the primary vehicle for player ‘development’ in MLS. It may be less true than in 1996 but it remains true. And all of this has to do with CPL because the truth of it reinforces the need for the CPL. 

No, the college draft is not the primary vehicle for player development in MLS. It hasn’t been so for years. 

This isn’t the right place to debate this, but if you wish to continue feel free to go ahead and tell me what, say, the No. 8 pick from each of the last 5 drafts (not including this year) are doing right now.

With much more emphasis on homegrowns and purchasing players from Latin America, it’s become near impossible for the overwhelming majority of drat picks to become MLS regulars nowadays. Most go to USL.

As for CPL, it was needed simply because there were not enough professional opportunities for Canadian players. The existence of the MLS draft has never had any influence on that, and never well.

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13 minutes ago, RS said:

No, the college draft is not the primary vehicle for player development in MLS. It hasn’t been so for years. 

This isn’t the right place to debate this, but if you wish to continue feel free to go ahead and tell me what, say, the No. 8 pick from each of the last 5 drafts (not including this year) are doing right now.

With much more emphasis on homegrowns and purchasing players from Latin America, it’s become near impossible for the overwhelming majority of drat picks to become MLS regulars nowadays. Most go to USL.

As for CPL, it was needed simply because there were not enough professional opportunities for Canadian players. The existence of the MLS draft has never had any influence on that, and never well.

I think you’re missing my point, and we’re sort of talking past each other. As you say, this isn’t really the place anyways, so cheers. 

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Well i did one quick snapshot.  I picked Minnesota at random, and 16/27 players came from colleges. Maybe they are an outlier, but I doubt it.  Check some other teams if you have spare time.  I dont know about any specific #8 pick but huge chunks of rosters are made up of college players.  

 

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1 hour ago, IAmPappy said:

What do you guys think about the 3 Cdn MLS clubs eventually joining the CPL, possibly forced to do so by FIFA?

I don't see it happening for years - especially with the CPL cap on each players salary being only $750K. Given that's less than the TFC average per player, they'd have to shed a lot of players - which is not in the interest of the fans who want to watch good football.

Perhaps we should be speculating on new teams here, not MLS teams, which clearly aren't going to be moving to CPL anytime this decade.
 

Edited by nfitz

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19 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Well i did one quick snapshot.  I picked Minnesota at random, and 16/27 players came from colleges. Maybe they are an outlier, but I doubt it.  Check some other teams if you have spare time.  I dont know about any specific #8 pick but huge chunks of rosters are made up of college players.  

 

My point is that even most early first-rounders don’t tend to stick with MLS teams any longer. 

And yes, Minnesota is an outlier. 

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Interesting topic. I"llstart by stating I'm not an expert- One point of reference for consideration and one perspective:  Let's start with the perspective.  As humans, we pay attention to what's closest and most convenient.  For the MLS to track players on college teams is convenient.  For colleges to "target" MLS teams for their players is convenient.  It's a natural result of geography and accessibility.  The point of reference is my son Scott and a 4th draft pick for Dallas, Callum Montgomery.  They have some similarities and some material differences.  The difference useful for this discussion is that Callum played College Soccer in the US.  I suspect most MLS teams have no knowledge of Scott Kennedy.

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19 hours ago, RS said:

My point is that even most early first-rounders don’t tend to stick with MLS teams any longer. 

And yes, Minnesota is an outlier. 

I think the reply to this is that many players entering NCAA now are doing so as homegrown. NCAA still plays a huge role in the developmental system in MLS. But it doesn't happen through the draft anymore. The whole USSDA agenda is bring players into NCAA, and they've been quite dominant in this regard.

Of all the ****** up things about MLS, the relationship with NCAA is near the bottom of my list. Like the US, Canadian Universities have an athletic infrastructure that would be crazy to ignore in the developmental process. It's also a platform to scout and sign foreign players with very little risk. If you had $1m to spend on transfer fees, I suspect you'd get much more bang for your buck by send 100 18 year olds to 4 years of university and then signing the top 10 or so. If anything, MLS has gotten away from this aspect of recruitment. $1m used to be precious to MLS and now they will throw it in a dumpster and watch it burn like any large European side. Caps took a $1m flyer on a 22 year old from a lower table club in Israel ffs.

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