CPL new teams speculation

[IAmPappy]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The main reason investors became interested in the concept of CanPL is because of the success of the three MLS teams and the obvious niche in the market for more pro teams that the CSA was insisting had to be filled with a domestic pro league.

People who see it as either/or rather than as all the boats in the water rise with an incoming tide have a negative zero sum game mindset. No need to choose because soccer has huge growth potential in Canada in the decades ahead and both can do well as CanPL seem to be actively emulating a lot of what MLS got right in terms of their business model.

First bold: Isn’t that literally the first mandate in every nation’s FA charter? To strengthen the domestic league?

Second bold: I can think of only one thing, which was to create a holding company to manage league-wide, non-game day tasks, specifically the broadcast rights.

Edited January 26, 2020 by IAmPappy

[SoccMan]

The more soccer the better, I’m a TFC season ticket holder since season one. I’ve supported every pro soccer team Toronto has ever had since the early 1970’s going to watch pro soccer with my dad as a kid. What I’ve loved about TFC and the two other MLS Canadian teams is the fact that they have been able to get big crowds to their stadiums since day one and have made all the soccer hating bastards stand up and take notice that pro soccer can draw good crowds on a consistent basis. With the arrival of the CPL no I haven’t dropped my TFC season tickets, I watch just as much MLS as before. I have added going to  York9 games and also watching  other CPL games via the App. A CPL team in Toronto at Lamport yes bring it on I’ll be there, but I won’t drop my TFC seasons or stop following the MLS why would I , I’m  a soccer fan I love this game . Toronto is a big city done right it can support a few soccer teams . Just look at how many soccer teams are in London in the UK, I’m sure Toronto can support a CPL team right downtown along with TFC if done right.

Edited January 26, 2020 by SoccMan

[BillyBob]

Steering back to original topic...

How many team in Atlantic Canada do you think the CPL could support out the gate?

Moncton would be a good place for an NB based team, are any other markets doable?

[Bison44]

39 minutes ago, BillyBob said:

Steering back to original topic...

How many team in Atlantic Canada do you think the CPL could support out the gate?

Moncton would be a good place for an NB based team, are any other markets doable?

Who thought Halifax would be the hot ticket, best supported team in the league??  You get the right location, right owners, right stadium etc, who knows which towns can bring in 6000 fanatics.  

[dnina10]

11 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Who thought Halifax would be the hot ticket, best supported team in the league??  You get the right location, right owners, right stadium etc, who knows which towns can bring in 6000 fanatics.  

Indeed. Maximum respect to them and their loyal fans. I had season tickets to Forge FC last season (and just renewed them). I also went to Forge FC's first away 905 Derby against York 9, where the atmosphere was dead, and I'm being kind (granted, it was not a cooperative day weather wise).

If I get a chance to go to another venue and watch a CPL match, I would choose Wanderer's Grounds in a heartbeat. The fans have been truly wonderful, and that I can say I truly respect.

I think that the CPL should look for another city across the country that does not have a major professional sports team that can handle a team, just as was the case with Halifax. That would be the perfect spot for a team, and Halifax showed exactly why. A few cities that comes to mind include Moncton, Québec City, Saskatoon, and Victoria. I'm a little more biased towards Saskatoon as from what I understand, the Saskatchewan people in general love their sports and always have good attendances, something that will most certainly help the league. That's my honest opinion

Edited January 26, 2020 by dnina10

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, BillyBob said:

Steering back to original topic...

How many team in Atlantic Canada do you think the CPL could support out the gate?

Moncton would be a good place for an NB based team, are any other markets doable?

Moncton and St. John’s are the only two other viable locations for D1 soccer in my opinion.  As sad as it makes me, PEI simply wouldn’t get the required numbers out to games in my opinion.  Maybe a regional D2 team - I think the required level of support could be there.  But it would be extremely hard to get 5000-6000 out on a regular basis in a province of 152,000 - especially when islanders spend their summers squeezing in as much socializing as possible.  

[dyslexic nam]

15 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

People who see it as either/or rather than as all the boats in the water rise with an incoming tide have a negative zero sum game mindset. No need to choose because soccer has huge growth potential in Canada in the decades ahead and both can do well as CanPL seem to be actively emulating a lot of what MLS got right in terms of their business model.

 

5 hours ago, SoccMan said:

The more soccer the better, I’m a TFC season ticket holder since season one. I’ve supported every pro soccer team Toronto has ever had since the early 1970’s going to watch pro soccer with my dad as a kid. What I’ve loved about TFC and the two other MLS Canadian teams is the fact that they have been able to get big crowds to their stadiums since day one and have made all the soccer hating bastards stand up and take notice that pro soccer can draw good crowds on a consistent basis. With the arrival of the CPL no I haven’t dropped my TFC season tickets, I watch just as much MLS as before. I have added going to  York9 games and also watching  other CPL games via the App. A CPL team in Toronto at Lamport yes bring it on I’ll be there, but I won’t drop my TFC seasons or stop following the MLS why would I , I’m  a soccer fan I love this game . Toronto is a big city done right it can support a few soccer teams . Just look at how many soccer teams are in London in the UK, I’m sure Toronto can support a CPL team right downtown along with TFC if done right.

Insofar as these comments relate to the discussion of MLS-sponsored clubs in CPL vs foreign-sponsored clubs, I think these sorts of comments either misunderstand or misrepresent a lot of what is/was said about MLS.   
 

The idea that MLS clubs should be treated differently than foreign investors isn’t some veiled anti-MLS sentiment.  Nor is the idea that the success of CPL will partly depend on its ability to cannibalize some support from the big 3.  It simply recognizes the current environment in a business context.  
 

Prior to CPL coming online, anyone in Canada who wanted to support a Canadian footy team had 3 choices.  That was borne out every time I saw a kid wearing a TFC hat or a Caps jersey - and I have seen that sort of thing, many times. And that is in PEI - about as far from a local MLS market as you can get in this country.  But now, there is a buzz about HFX. It is mostly because it is the closest pro team and people can watch games - but some people are also excited about Sanoh’s signing since he lived and played here.  Hell, I have tried (poorly) defending against him. That is cool as hell to me. 
 

Sure some people will support both HFX and TFC, but I am sure some have switched allegiances to the more local team. Any Canadian footy fans in HFX probably have.  And that is happening across the country.   It isn’t a knock on the MLS clubs or some anti-league sentiment. It is simply the way CPL’s success will work in non-MLS markets.  
 

Similarly, the idea of excluding MLS B teams isn’t an attack on that league - it is just a basic business decision that seeks to preserve and maximize the appeal of CPL to fans.  That isn’t a “zero sum game” mindset - it is recognizing the reality of the challenges faced by CPL and the optimal path forward for the league.  

[Kent]

19 hours ago, Shway said:

My dream is that a foreign investor like city football group setting up a team in Toronto at Lamport. The opportunity is so great! 

Why would you prefer a foreign investor over a Canadian investor? All things being equal I’d much rather have a team with its own brand than something that is at least partly a marketing arm for a different soccer team. And even if it wasn’t something like a sky blue “Toronto City” type of team, I would still prefer a Canadian owner rather than foreign. Keep the money from this new soccer economy in Canada.

Note, this doesn’t mean I am against foreign ownership. I just find it a bit weird for it to be a specific part of the dream for the league going forward.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I don't want City or Red Bull, but I'm quite excited to have Atletico and possibly Lyon coming in. I'm excited because they bring expertise on how to make money in football, how to develop players and how to build a lasting brand that is authentic. I'm also excited because thus far the CSB has been humble, has asked for help and Europe has answered. Unlike our neighbors to the south who think they know everything already. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

...which is why you had to exclude Red Bull and City from the equation even though there is an obvious parallel between their involvement with MLS and Atletico Madrid and possibly Olympique Lyon getting involved with CanPL.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

Why would you prefer a foreign investor over a Canadian investor? ...

The main consideration should be ability to run a pro soccer operation properly so there are fewer Valour and Y9 type outfits that provide a strong feeling of deja vu for those old enough to have been around for the original CSL. That doesn't mean foreign investors should always be preferred to Canadian investors given the way the Forge and Cavalry built on what Sigma and the Foothills had done previously, but it's better to aim for a by soccer people for soccer people outcome as much as possible. This should really be all about building up the quality of the soccer as quickly as possible rather than being a make work project for second rate players and coaches that can't get hired anywhere else.

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, Kent said:

Why would you prefer a foreign investor over a Canadian investor? All things being equal I’d much rather have a team with its own brand than something that is at least partly a marketing arm for a different soccer team. And even if it wasn’t something like a sky blue “Toronto City” type of team, I would still prefer a Canadian owner rather than foreign. Keep the money from this new soccer economy in Canada.

Note, this doesn’t mean I am against foreign ownership. I just find it a bit weird for it to be a specific part of the dream for the league going forward.

I prefer Canadian owners too. After all, we have people with money who are not putting anything back into society, apart from paying taxes, which is what those of us making nothing also do.

There are too many out there not supporting a new medical research unit or a museum or theatre program, those with deep pockets who love soccer but are unwilling to go in on the investment. People perfectly able to negotiate with local and provincial authorities or a university, for help in getting a stadium or training centre built, if that were the case.

For me, I'd like to see 15 investor groups in Canadian soccer, I think it could be done. And I say groups because that way, if someone decides to pull out, you go look for another to pick up that minority share left available, reducing the risk of a single owner just closing show with no consultation.

So however enthused about what At Madrid is doing, which is a major push for this CPL season and really adds to the league momenttum, I would always prefer for ownership to be Canadian.

 

[RS]

11 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I'm also excited because thus far the CSB has been humble, has asked for help and Europe has answered. Unlike our neighbors to the south who think they know everything already. 

You're referring to MLS which has Red Bull and City, and previously had Chivas USA, right?

I'll never get the underlying need by so many on this board who think the only way to prop up CPL is to shit on MLS, even when it makes no sense. CPL will and can stand on its own two feet.

[TFC2017]

What would you guys consider the CPL's first major breakthrough as a major league in the continent? 

 

For me I think qualification to the Concacaf Champions League group stage would signal we have arrived. 

[SpursFlu]

6 minutes ago, TFC2017 said:

What would you guys consider the CPL's first major breakthrough as a major league in the continent? 

 

For me I think qualification to the Concacaf Champions League group stage would signal we have arrived. 

I agree. I'm hoping there is still time for more than 1 CPL team to enter the 2020 Concacaf League

[PaulV]

15 minutes ago, TFC2017 said:

What would you guys consider the CPL's first major breakthrough as a major league in the continent? 

 

For me I think qualification to the Concacaf Champions League group stage would signal we have arrived. 

I guess it depends on what you would define as 'major league' as it could be a lot of different things. Jamaica has a team in the Round of 16 in the 2020 CCL, and I wouldn't define them as 'major'. I'd probably only define MLS and Mexico as major leagues, but if the CPL could get a team into the quarter finals of the CCL on a semi-regular basis then I'd say it would be a significant player in the region.

Edited January 27, 2020 by PaulV
typo

[CanadaFan123]

25 minutes ago, TFC2017 said:

What would you guys consider the CPL's first major breakthrough as a major league in the continent? 

 

For me I think qualification to the Concacaf Champions League group stage would signal we have arrived. 

There is no longer a group stage so that goal is a little unrealistic  

Definitely though to make the CCL would be great but I think even more recognition will come from a team making the final of the Voyageurs Cup.  There is a clear path for Cavalry or Forge to make the final with just one MLS team in the way... 

[youllneverwalkalone]

40 minutes ago, RS said:

You're referring to MLS which has Red Bull and City, and previously had Chivas USA, right?

I'll never get the underlying need by so many on this board who think the only way to prop up CPL is to **** on MLS, even when it makes no sense. CPL will and can stand on its own two feet.

Neither current group bring the criteria mentioned, and one of them has an direct link to a regime was human rights issues to say the least. 

I don't understand the need by some on this board to be so sensitive about their beloved MLS. If it was so great, I wouldn't see the need to be so defensive.

MLS has provided the CPL with a great opportunity to learn what works and what doesn't. Not taking advantage of this opportunity would be foolish. I believe the the link to Atletico and Lyon to be far superior to that with City and Red Bull for reasons mentioned.

[Kent]

48 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Neither current group bring the criteria mentioned, and one of them has an direct link to a regime was human rights issues to say the least. 

I don't understand the need by some on this board to be so sensitive about their beloved MLS. If it was so great, I wouldn't see the need to be so defensive.

MLS has provided the CPL with a great opportunity to learn what works and what doesn't. Not taking advantage of this opportunity would be foolish. I believe the the link to Atletico and Lyon to be far superior to that with City and Red Bull for reasons mentioned.

The thing I didn't get from your earlier post is why you think Atletico or Lyon would be any better at creating "a lasting brand that is authentic". I imagine these groups will just be transplanting their existing brands over here. That doesn't seem any more authentic than what City and Red Bull did in MLS.

[Winnipeg Fury]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The main consideration should be ability to run a pro soccer operation properly so there are fewer Valour and Y9 type outfits that provide a strong feeling of deja vu for those old enough to have been around for the original CSL. 

 

And what are Valour doing that you object to  ?  Valour averaged over 5000 fans per game and I guarantee had the biggest merch sales in the league.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Winnipeg Fury

[Unnamed Trialist]

55 minutes ago, Kent said:

The thing I didn't get from your earlier post is why you think Atletico or Lyon would be any better at creating "a lasting brand that is authentic". I imagine these groups will just be transplanting their existing brands over here. That doesn't seem any more authentic than what City and Red Bull did in MLS.

Apparently, as I have posted on the OttawaCPL thread, Atlético has the goal of promoting the brand, building a youth academy, getting results to improve the overall image of the home club as well. Also moving players, within reason, at least with the At San Luís in LigaMX. So Red Bull on those counts is out, it is no more than branding, there is no specific soccer experience they bring to the table. Although they do seem to care about results, which is better seen in Germany or Austria than in MLS.

As for City, it is a bit ambiguous. You can't say they are doing a  great job with youth at NYCFC, any different than any other club in MLS. They have been stalling on game experience, staying at a stadium that is prestige but inappropriate for the game, thus suggesting a lack of committment there. Some players do get moved about. Same with their team in Spain, Girona, which has now dropped into 2nd division (rather stupidly albeit, when they were safe a weeks before the season ended). 

So it is not just a matter of transplanting brands, it does seem to be a matter of moving an entire model for Atlético. It remains to be seen how that pans out.,

[youllneverwalkalone]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

The thing I didn't get from your earlier post is why you think Atletico or Lyon would be any better at creating "a lasting brand that is authentic". I imagine these groups will just be transplanting their existing brands over here. That doesn't seem any more authentic than what City and Red Bull did in MLS.

Sure. I guess my feeling about Red Bull is pretty much the way it tastes. Like total shit. City are fucked up on so many levels, I'd rather drink a Red Bull than think about.

Atletico has owners that are, I think, respected leaders. I don't see any reason not to be associated with their brand. I feel like they have things to teach us. What could City teach you. Be a rich fuck and buy everything? This sounds like the MLS take away.

Lyon has a similar story. I don't know the who the Chinese interests are that own 20%. Frankly, it concerns me a bit, but I don't know what I don't know here. 

[Big_M]

Aulas has majority ownership and bought Reign FC so no concern there

[Stouffvillain]

3 hours ago, TFC2017 said:

What would you guys consider the CPL's first major breakthrough as a major league in the continent? 

I'd say it already came with Forge beating international competition in the CL and Cavalry beating Vancouver over two legs.  However, the big one will come later this year when Y9 beats Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver to lift the V Cup.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

41 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

...Although they do seem to care about results, which is better seen in Germany or Austria than in MLS...

RBNY have a very strong academy and USL 2 team after bringing in a former Scotland manager and UEFA techical director called Andy Roxburgh to build that side of things up. Would be good to see an academy system starting in Ottawa through the Atletico Madrdid angle because the rest of CanPL seems to be shying away from doing that for fear of upsetting youth clubs.