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CPL new teams speculation

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4 hours ago, red card said:

Besides trying to leech off the Mexican national team and ligaMX, SUM also has been charging probably the highest ticket prices in the world for mens' friendilies involving Mexico and also the US. Maybe charging US$300 for Mexico is warranted but not for the US. They were charging more than world champions France this past summer. 

They also benefitted greatly from hosting Copa America 100. They tried again to host this tourney but fortunately was slapped down by CONMEBOL. 

Yes very well done by SUM it’s called business and the free market. In the end it’s always about the mighty dollar without it no MLS no CPL . 

 

On 11/12/2019 at 12:03 PM, SpursFlu said:

I'm not surprised. My opinion is why don't we suck blood instead of getting our blood sucked?

Campeonese Cup is just a a way for the MLS to try and get money from the Mexican American market. Just like US soccer plays endless games against Mexico and 80% of the crowd are cheering for Mexico. American sports marketing basically wants to market this sport to those people, this sport to those people and this sport to those other people over there. Canadians don't fit in to any of their marketing demographics. They basically would rather we didn't really exist because we don't fit in to any of their buckets. And us being better than them really doesn't fit their little storylines

Oh please wow really ! Incredible stuff!

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Suspect SUM and MLS are more than happy to have Canadian teams on board when they see TSN ratings numbers for MLS Cup that are comparable to what they got on ABC with a tenth of the population to draw from. We only have three markets that are clearly suited for that sort of level of operations and there is probably never going to be any MLS expansion beyond that.

The key for CanPL is to get pro soccer working well elsewhere. The experience in Halifax suggests it definitely can be done, but there's still a very long way to go before pro/rel will be unfolding in a financially stable 16 team league with two divisions of 8, because things didn't go anything like as well with York 9, FCE and Pacific.

Think people should be more concerned with how that gets turned around and more markets get enticed on board despite the problem of finding suitable stadium solutions rather than constantly trying to turn everything into a bitter CanPL vs MLS rivalry. If you are keen to see Canadian soccer grow stronger, surely the posture should be that you want both to do well?

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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1 hour ago, narduch said:

And TSN has essentially shunned the Impact. The rarely ever show them.

Maybe we can take a page out of the hockey history books and have a French Montreal team (les Canadiens) and an English Montreal team (the Wanderers and Maroons) 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

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Just now, Viruk42 said:

Maybe we can take a page out of the hockey history books and have a French Montreal team (les Canadiens) and an English Montreal team (the Wanderers and Maroons) 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

OK but where in Montreal can they be placed and will they draw well.  Montreal does not have a good record for supporting 2nd teams (look at junior hockey).    

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8 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

OK but where in Montreal can they be placed and will they draw well.  Montreal does not have a good record for supporting 2nd teams (look at junior hockey).    

The shrug was supposed to demonstrate that I was mostly joking. I'm a Habs fan, well aware of Montreal's inability to support a second hockey team (although I gather Les Canadiennes got fairly good support), and the only way having an English team vs French team rivalry would make sense is if they were in the same league, i.e. the Impact would have to move to CPL for it to potentially work.

As for where, no idea, so I will (again jokingly) say wherever the Garbage Bowl is played in NDG Montreal West.

[edit]: apparently the Garbage Bowl is played just outside of NDG. I was not aware, because my memories of it always started by walking there from my uncle's home which is definitely in NDG. 

Edited by Viruk42

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12 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

The shrug was supposed to demonstrate that I was mostly joking. I'm a Habs fan, well aware of Montreal's inability to support a second hockey team (although I gather Les Canadiennes got fairly good support), and the only way having an English team vs French team rivalry would make sense is if they were in the same league, i.e. the Impact would have to move to CPL for it to potentially work.

As for where, no idea, so I will (again jokingly) say wherever the Garbage Bowl is played in NDG Montreal West.

[edit]: apparently the Garbage Bowl is played just outside of NDG. I was not aware, because my memories of it always started by walking there from my uncle's home which is definitely in NDG. 

I think that is why Alex Bunbury wants to place his team in Laval to avoid direct competition with the Impact.

If there was a "CPL East" I could see teams in Ottawa, Montreal/Laval, Quebec City, New Brunswick(Moncton or Saint-John), HFX wanderers, and Newfoundland.     Could there be any other communities that could support CPL teams in the East???  

 

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1 hour ago, narduch said:

TFC's regular season ratings are still pretty crappy though.

And TSN has essentially shunned the Impact. The rarely ever show them.

Firstly national cable ratings for MLS in a Canadian context are also broadly comparable to what MLS draws in the US in English language terms, which will no doubt also not go unnoticed at MLS HQ, and secondly the Impact as a Quebec team can be expected to mainly be shown on French language channels.

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17 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Firstly national cable ratings for MLS in a Canadian context are also broadly comparable to what MLS draws in the US in English language terms, which will no doubt also not go unnoticed at MLS HQ, and secondly the Impact as a Quebec team can be expected to mainly be shown on French language channels.

Yes.

All that proves is that soccer is more popular in Canada than it is in the US. Which is one of the good reasons why we should have our own league, and its future should be bright.

However the ratings are still pretty pathetic.

Edited by narduch

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The point originally was whether Canadians fit into MLS marketing demographics and I was pointing out why we do. The popularity of sports leagues takes generations to grow. The reason why serious investment has been going into both MLS and CanPL in recent times is that soccer's popularity skews very heavily towards the younger generation. Soccer has much better future growth potential than a league like the CFL does which skews heavily in the opposite direction in interest terms.

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1 hour ago, Impactsupporter said:

I think that is why Alex Bunbury wants to place his team in Laval to avoid direct competition with the Impact.

If there was a "CPL East" I could see teams in Ottawa, Montreal/Laval, Quebec City, New Brunswick(Moncton or Saint-John), HFX wanderers, and Newfoundland.     Could there be any other communities that could support CPL teams in the East???  

 

I wish PEI could do it, but I suspect we wouldn’t muster that numbers and may even have a hard time propping up a regional D2 team if that structure ever comes to pass.  Partly due to what I suspect would be a low level of interest and partly due to competing priorities in the summer months when most islanders  are socializing hardcore or beaching it.  

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1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Firstly national cable ratings for MLS in a Canadian context are also broadly comparable to what MLS draws in the US in English language terms, which will no doubt also not go unnoticed at MLS HQ, and secondly the Impact as a Quebec team can be expected to mainly be shown on French language channels.

I can't remember where I saw it but Canada has about 8x the interest in soccer/MLS per capita compared to the USA.

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37 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I can't remember where I saw it but Canada has about 8x the interest in soccer/MLS per capita compared to the USA.

Not surprising given the suburban/college nature of soccer in the USA. 

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I still think the most likely explanation for ratings numbers is that MLS isn't a national phenomenon. You put a game on between San Jose and Chicago and the people that watch it will be from San Jose or Chicago. Or a game between Vancouver and Orlando, the viewers will be from Vancouver or Orlando. Since Vancouver (the smallest of the 3 Canadian MLS cities) carries a higher percentage of the national population (marginally) than even New York does in the US, as a result you get it looking like more people per capita are watching. I don't think it's that we are drawing 8x more fans in the MLS city itself, and it's not that we get so many viewers from out of market areas.

My reasoning being that it's not like the attendance of the Canadian teams are through the roof. In fact our attendance is dwarfed by a couple of the more popular American teams. I think TV ratings for MLS games is the only metric (that I know of) that shows such a higher amount of interest in the game. Are ratings for the World Cup, or EPL, or La Liga, or whatever other competitions 8x higher per capita than the American numbers? Legit question because I don't know.

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3 hours ago, Impactsupporter said:

OK but where in Montreal can they be placed and will they draw well.  Montreal does not have a good record for supporting 2nd teams (look at junior hockey).    

NDG or Pointe-Claire/DDO in my opinion. Too soon to speculate on the D2 requirements but West Island has the population, wealth, corporate presence to support a D2 club + English identity.

Edited by Ansem

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I said several times that a derby in Montréal between a French and an Englsih club would be dope. This can sadly lead to a violent rivalry. With Montréal Impact in the background, it won't happen any soon!

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32 minutes ago, mtlsab said:

I said several times that a derby in Montréal between a French and an Englsih club would be dope. This can sadly lead to a violent rivalry. With Montréal Impact in the background, it won't happen any soon!

The last thing this country needs is the tribalism of an English vs French derby in Montreal.  If I were the CSA, I wouldn’t sanction any club based on this identity and neither should the CPL.  

Personal opinion: I would quit supporting club football in Canada if that were to happen.  There’s too much of that crap in places around the world.

Edited by JamboAl

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5 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

The last thing this country needs is the tribalism of an English vs French derby in Montreal.  If I were the CSA, I wouldn’t sanction any club based on this identity and neither should the CPL.  

Personal opinion: I would quit supporting club football in Canada if that were to happen.  There’s too much of that crap in places around the world.

I don't entirely disagree but I think finding fairly natural ways to have derbies would be really useful to the league. I'd love to have an Ottawa vs Gatineau rivalry game for instance, ideally in a stadium close enough to walk across one of the bridges to get there (though I recognize that would probably be a relatively long walk). I know there will always be city rivalries, like Calgary vs Edmonton, but how can we build intra-city rivalries? With Montreal, maybe having one team in a more English part of the city and another in a more French part of the city would do that, without the need to actively market the teams in that way, but I'd certainly be open to other ways to do it.

Perhaps we can create our own Al Ahly vs Zamalek rivalries, get one team supported by the people and the other by the wealthy elite*? Toronto can have Bay Street FC, Montreal can have Westmount FC, Ottawa would be Rockcliffe FC, Vancouver would be Anywhere But The Downtown Eastside FC (or so I've been told), etc.


* I'm aware that my description of the Cairo Derby is an oversimplification as to which team is supported by which fans, blame my Nasserist in-laws who are firmly Al Ahly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

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12 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Suspect SUM and MLS are more than happy to have Canadian teams on board when they see TSN ratings numbers for MLS Cup that are comparable to what they got on ABC with a tenth of the population to draw from. We only have three markets that are clearly suited for that sort of level of operations and there is probably never going to be any MLS expansion beyond that.

The key for CanPL is to get pro soccer working well elsewhere. The experience in Halifax suggests it definitely can be done, but there's still a very long way to go before pro/rel will be unfolding in a financially stable 16 team league with two divisions of 8, because things didn't go anything like as well with York 9, FCE and Pacific.

Think people should be more concerned with how that gets turned around and more markets get enticed on board despite the problem of finding suitable stadium solutions rather than constantly trying to turn everything into a bitter CanPL vs MLS rivalry. If you are keen to see Canadian soccer grow stronger, surely the posture should be that you want both to do well?

The American MLS doesn't really care much for the Canadian players as we've seen over the years. As for the Canadian MLS franchises, the MLS would likely not shed tears if one day in the future if the Canadian MLS teams sold their MLS rights back to the league and then started CPL clubs, and the US league would happily sell those rights at inflated costs to expansion markets in their own country.

One important factor for CPL as our Division 1 league is that it needs to be in the major markets like Greater Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal if its to grow significantly in the future. The CPL has said as much as well, and good to know that there are clubs in the works apparently in those markets.

Canadian Soccer will grow stronger with a CPL that grows year by year to new heights like the USA's MLS has since its difficult beginnings over 20 years ago.

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On 11/12/2019 at 12:13 PM, narduch said:

This entire debate started because someone mentioned that TFC deserved to start the Voyageurs Cup in the semi-finals so they can take part in the Leagues Cup.

That totally characterizes my comment. What I said, in response to a comment where someone was suggesting a format where Montreal gets a bye to the semis was "Isn't it more likely that Toronto will get a bye than Montreal, if (only) one team were to get a bye?", noting that Montreal's Champions League commitment was over at the end of April, while Toronto's Leagues Cup commitment directly conflicted with the Voyageurs Cup.

I certainly never suggested that any team "deserved" a bye - I merely pondered if only one team were to get a bye, would it be Montreal.

I also pondered how they'd deal with the conflict, unless they were to move the tournament back to the spring, or remove the double-legged format.

Edited by nfitz

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2 minutes ago, nfitz said:

That totally characterizes my comment. What I said, in response to a comment where someone was suggesting a format where Montreal gets a bye to the semis was "Isn't it more likely that Toronto will get a bye than Montreal, if (only) one team were to get a bye?", noting that Montreal's Champions League commitment was over at the end of April, while Toronto's Leagues Cup commitment directly conflicted with the Voyageurs Cup.

I certainly never suggested that any team "deserved" a bye - I merely pondered if only one team were to get a bye, would it be Montreal.

I also pondered how they'd deal with the conflict, unless they were to move the tournament back to the spring, or remove the double-legged format.

Again, that's not the CSA's problem.

The Voyageurs Cup shouldn't be altered for a joke tournament.

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7 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

The American MLS doesn't really care much for the Canadian players as we've seen over the years...

Players have to actually be good enough and when they are, for example Mark-Anthony Kaye, Will Johnson or Dwayne de Rosario, there have tended to be no major issues on that.

Also worth noting that the appeals to raw nationalism that you tend to go in for on here and the league was pushing with its "By Canadians For Canadians" slogan didn't seem to gain much traction in the GTA last summer, because although this issue might be massively important to a few people on this subforum, mainstream soccer fans tend to gravitate towards the higher level of soccer whether that be through watching games live in the stadium or from the comfort of their basement and don't tend to care all that much about what passports the players hold.

CanPL needs to tone down the nationalism and talk up its playing standards in other words. People aren't going to flock to watch a second rate level of soccer just because a Maple Leaf is being waved furiously in a CPSL or original CSL sort of way, but might start to do it if they realize the soccer is genuinely fully pro this time and being played at a reasonable standard.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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17 hours ago, Viruk42 said:

I don't entirely disagree but I think finding fairly natural ways to have derbies would be really useful to the league. I'd love to have an Ottawa vs Gatineau rivalry game for instance, ideally in a stadium close enough to walk across one of the bridges to get there (though I recognize that would probably be a relatively long walk). I know there will always be city rivalries, like Calgary vs Edmonton, but how can we build intra-city rivalries? With Montreal, maybe having one team in a more English part of the city and another in a more French part of the city would do that, without the need to actively market the teams in that way, but I'd certainly be open to other ways to do it.

Perhaps we can create our own Al Ahly vs Zamalek rivalries, get one team supported by the people and the other by the wealthy elite*? Toronto can have Bay Street FC, Montreal can have Westmount FC, Ottawa would be Rockcliffe FC, Vancouver would be Anywhere But The Downtown Eastside FC (or so I've been told), etc.


* I'm aware that my description of the Cairo Derby is an oversimplification as to which team is supported by which fans, blame my Nasserist in-laws who are firmly Al Ahly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

A lot of pro clubs around the world are built over an ethnicity, religion, social class or polical view. This type of things enhance the rivalry. But on the other hand, it can lead to some dangerous situation where someone can't even wear his jersey on the other side of the city!

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