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CPL new teams speculation

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16 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

This is the part that I think is a bit interesting.  With due respect to Canadian MLS supporters, it is not one of those leagues that draws people in because it is a clearly "superior product".  Yes, it is above CPL in the pecking order, but it is well down the tiered structure of global footy.  And yet I think people are watching it (at least the Canadian teams) in pretty respectable numbers.  Insofar as people are watching it, I think it is due to 2 reasons:

  • It is a local product.  I think the "Canadianness" of it is a selling feature.  I suspect that viewership numbers for games featuring the 3 Canadian teams are quite a bit higher than those featuring to US teams. 
  • There is a lack of televised competitors now that much footy coverage has migrated to streaming platforms.  In previous years, if I wanted to watch high level of soccer, I would watch the European leagues.  I would tune in to watch the vanadian teams play in MLS, but that related to (1) above.  Now, the absence of the top competitions (EPL Champs League, etc) on our sports channels has provided a vacuum that I suspect is being filled by MLS for some footy fans.

If it is a combo of the local factor and the absence of other options that will support reasonable MLS viewing numbers in Canada, interestingly (IMO) these same factors could just as easily drive footy fans to watch CPL on TV if a reasonable level of coverage was provided by one of the big 2 sports channels.   

Good point and that's another reason why the league needs to take measures to repeat their accomplishments this year.

CPL could have easily flown under the radar this year and be buried by all the other sporting events going on TV but a few things happened that couldn't be ignored:

  1. Cavalry eliminating Vancouver was news that could not be ignored. CPL drew curious Whitecaps fans to Onesoccer to see how their team would perform against CPL.
  2. York9 almost winning the 1st game was also news that could not be ignored in Quebec despite the snubbing of CPL. It was a huge eye opener to fans and media who were way more out of the CPL loop than the rest of the country. Obviously, more Impact fans tuned in to watch the return game and went to the stadium.
  3. Which lead to Cavalry being seen as an "event" by Montreal fans who were curious about how their team would fare against them. York9 was a close one but the "Cavalry reputation" + Onesoccer providing French commentary drew attention in Quebec.
  4. Forge FC run in CONCACACF League was big deal enough to force even TSN to broadcast the game...first by streaming, then live.

If the league wants to grow their exposure and increase their reputation & relevance, they can't afford to get buried next season in both Canadian Championship and CONCACAF League or it's back to irrelevance among fans and media. The league knows that all too well.

What would help CPL get more eyes on the product should be at minimum

  • Semi-Finals of Canadian Championship
  • Qualification to Round of 16 CONCACAF League

I think the league takes measures to accomplish that by increasing the cap.

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2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

 

  • It is a local product.  I think the "Canadianness" of it is a selling feature.  I suspect that viewership numbers for games featuring the 3 Canadian teams are quite a bit higher than those featuring to US teams. 
  • There is a lack of televised competitors now that much footy coverage has migrated to streaming platforms.  In previous years, if I wanted to watch high level of soccer, I would watch the European leagues.  I would tune in to watch the vanadian teams play in MLS, but that related to (1) above.  Now, the absence of the top competitions (EPL Champs League, etc) on our sports channels has provided a vacuum that I suspect is being filled by MLS for some footy fans.

If it is a combo of the local factor and the absence of other options that will support reasonable MLS viewing numbers in Canada, interestingly (IMO) these same factors could just as easily drive footy fans to watch CPL on TV if a reasonable level of coverage was provided by one of the big 2 sports channels.   

Other than the 2 years TFC made their MLS Cup and CCL runs, tv ratings for MLS are much less than EPL when it was on tv. Most of the time it is below for 100k for the Cdn MLS teams. Non-Canadian MLS matches are just filler, free content for TSN and I have not seen any reported ratings above 25k.

There is a reason why DAZN finally went on a promotional blitz this summer (Toronto's flagship Union Station subway portion has been plastered with DAZN ads since July) because EPL season was starting. They have had non-TSN broadcasted MLS matches for at least a couple of years but it obviously didn't move the needle. DAZN ads at Union only emphasize EPL, CL & NFL.

Non-MLS football is also still available on tv. And its 3 of the top 5 leagues. Sportsnet has been showing 1-3 live/delayed Bundesliga matches from Friday-Sunday. TLN has 4-6 Serie A matches with same English feed as DAZN. And off the radar for most, TV5 shows one Ligue 1 match on Saturday.

So, I'm not surprised CPL coverage has been weak. Other than for NHL, MLB, NBA, NFL and possibly curling followers, all other Cdn sport/league followers have real gripes about the coverage their sport/league gets. CFL games are on TV and get good ratings but coverage in certain cities is weak. Sportsnet ignored CFL until MLSE got 100% ownership of the Argos.

Edited by red card

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8 hours ago, Ansem said:

Which lead to Cavalry being seen as an "event" by Montreal fans who were curious about how their team would fare against them. York9 was a close one but the "Cavalry reputation" + Onesoccer providing French commentary drew attention in Quebec.

What is this based on? I forget if you presently live in Quebec or not. Is it just a vibe you got in your circles?

For what it's worth, Montreal home game against York 9 drew 14,723 fans. Montreal home game against Cavalry drew 12,665 fans.

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28 minutes ago, Kent said:

What is this based on? I forget if you presently live in Quebec or not. Is it just a vibe you got in your circles?

For what it's worth, Montreal home game against York 9 drew 14,723 fans. Montreal home game against Cavalry drew 12,665 fans.

Not living in Quebec anymore but I'm in the Facebook groups of the Impact SG and talk to journalists close to the team. They saw it as an "must see event"

Casuals most likely wouldn't make the difference between V Cup or MLS league game.

Hardcores knew and were asking questions about CPL when prior to Vancouver's elimination, they didn't care about CPL and laughed it off as an amateur league. I was warned many times for promoting CPL on their group page.

CPL run in both Canadian Championship and CONCACAF league (among the soccer fans and media) shifted their perception of CPL 

Hence my point of CPL needing to take the appropriate measures to repeat.

Edited by Ansem

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2 hours ago, Kent said:

What is this based on? I forget if you presently live in Quebec or not. Is it just a vibe you got in your circles?

For what it's worth, Montreal home game against York 9 drew 14,723 fans. Montreal home game against Cavalry drew 12,665 fans.

And tonight against TFC

CPL owning their own against MLS drew curious fans

Edited by Ansem

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13 hours ago, Ansem said:

Good point and that's another reason why the league needs to take measures to repeat their accomplishments this year.

CPL could have easily flown under the radar this year and be buried by all the other sporting events going on TV but a few things happened that couldn't be ignored:

  1. Cavalry eliminating Vancouver was news that could not be ignored. CPL drew curious Whitecaps fans to Onesoccer to see how their team would perform against CPL.
  2. York9 almost winning the 1st game was also news that could not be ignored in Quebec despite the snubbing of CPL. It was a huge eye opener to fans and media who were way more out of the CPL loop than the rest of the country. Obviously, more Impact fans tuned in to watch the return game and went to the stadium.
  3. Which lead to Cavalry being seen as an "event" by Montreal fans who were curious about how their team would fare against them. York9 was a close one but the "Cavalry reputation" + Onesoccer providing French commentary drew attention in Quebec.
  4. Forge FC run in CONCACACF League was big deal enough to force even TSN to broadcast the game...first by streaming, then live.

If the league wants to grow their exposure and increase their reputation & relevance, they can't afford to get buried next season in both Canadian Championship and CONCACAF League or it's back to irrelevance among fans and media. The league knows that all too well.

What would help CPL get more eyes on the product should be at minimum

  • Semi-Finals of Canadian Championship
  • Qualification to Round of 16 CONCACAF League

I think the league takes measures to accomplish that by increasing the cap.

Agreed with everything but the last line (great post btw). 

We can accomplish your objectives without a cap increase. The talent is there at our current cap...very good players from literally across the globe want to come at these wages. I think there so much potential within the Americas alone to identify “leveling-up” talent (North, Central and South America). Plus we have a full pipeline of youth talent that will be flowing into CPL rosters in the coming years 

No need to expose the league to undue risk

 

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12 hours ago, hamiltonfan said:

Agreed with everything but the last line (great post btw). 

We can accomplish your objectives without a cap increase. The talent is there at our current cap...very good players from literally across the globe want to come at these wages. I think there so much potential within the Americas alone to identify “leveling-up” talent (North, Central and South America). Plus we have a full pipeline of youth talent that will be flowing into CPL rosters in the coming years 

No need to expose the league to undue risk

 

I second the part about increasing the cap and players still wanting to come here.

Is the money great? Hardly. However Canada is still really, really attractive compared to other places especially the Concacaf nations (which is going to be a big part of the CanPL pipeline). The standard of living is much higher and there's a next to zero chance of fan violence towards you. Plus there's TV & streaming which will allow a lot of scouts to watch you play a lot. 

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13 hours ago, hamiltonfan said:

Agreed with everything but the last line (great post btw). 

We can accomplish your objectives without a cap increase. The talent is there at our current cap...very good players from literally across the globe want to come at these wages. I think there so much potential within the Americas alone to identify “leveling-up” talent (North, Central and South America). Plus we have a full pipeline of youth talent that will be flowing into CPL rosters in the coming years 

No need to expose the league to undue risk

 

By cap increase, it's more about allowing bigger rosters to allow teams to manage multiple competitions, not really to sign more expensive players per se. Better scheduling, reduce travelling and less occurrences of playing more than a game weekly will help increase the quality naturally by allowing proper rest.

As for salary increase, it's most likely happening anyways, we just don't know by how much. I'm just suggesting it should increase to allow teams to sign more bodies to properly rotate their rosters.

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On 9/19/2019 at 10:41 AM, Ansem said:

By cap increase, it's more about allowing bigger rosters to allow teams to manage multiple competitions, not really to sign more expensive players per se. Better scheduling, reduce travelling and less occurrences of playing more than a game weekly will help increase the quality naturally by allowing proper rest.

As for salary increase, it's most likely happening anyways, we just don't know by how much. I'm just suggesting it should increase to allow teams to sign more bodies to properly rotate their rosters.

I would think if there's a cap increase, the players already in the league will be looking for raises.  It doesn't sound like the initial cap came in where the league promised, and I can see the current group of players wanting a higher wage.

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6 hours ago, Lofty said:

As a QPR fan I am very sensitive to over paying players. If the current CPL players could earn more elsewhere, they would be playing elsewhere. That means they are not being under paid.

A player deserves a raise when another club is willing to pay him more, and not before (the exception might be if the CPL salary is so low that the player is considering quitting and the CPL club values him enough to want to pay more to keep him).

A higher cap should mean better talent, not more money for existing players. Only CPL players that must be paid more to stay need be given a raise.

Depends on what they're actually being paid, which we obviously don't know. Some anti-CPL people have suggested that it's a semi-pro league and while I doubt that, I would be rather unhappy if anyone was getting a wage that they could not live on. I understand and can agree with what you're saying for those on the higher end of the spectrum, but my concern would be for the kind of player who only gets 20min every few games. 

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2 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Who has suggested that and where? Not something I've seen being suggested either here or on Reddit.

I'm mostly thinking of Ottawa Fury trolls on twitter after the game with Halifax. It may have been said here as well, but my memory is not that good - regardless, I was/am definitely not accusing anyone here of saying that.

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From what I remember of newspaper articles from earlier this year, the Fury have stated that they need 7500 plus to break even, so not sure that their future trajectory is likely to lead anywhere other than bankruptcy if that keeps up. I suspect they are doing OK at the moment from USL expansion fees (find it farfetched that it all goes to the league owners despite what often gets claimed on here) and are hoping that the franchise will accrue value in an Andrew Hauptmann and the Chicago Fire sort of way that offsets yearly losses, but a lot of things have to fall neatly into place after MLS stops expanding for that to happen for them. One of the things CanPL got right in year one was keeping the cap low and not getting into a pissing contest with the Fury over who pays the higher salaries, because that seldom leads anywhere positive in North American soccer for all the parties involved.

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Has there been many sales of USL teams? 

They hand out expansion teams like candy. I doubt the franchise's have much value. If there was any interest couldn't Vancouver and Montreal have sold their franchises instead of folding them?

 

Edited by narduch

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8 hours ago, Lofty said:

As a QPR fan I am very sensitive to over paying players. If the current CPL players could earn more elsewhere, they would be playing elsewhere. That means they are not being under paid.

A player deserves a raise when another club is willing to pay him more, and not before (the exception might be if the CPL salary is so low that the player is considering quitting and the CPL club values him enough to want to pay more to keep him).

A higher cap should mean better talent, not more money for existing players. Only CPL players that must be paid more to stay need be given a raise.

I don’t think you can compare the situations. We’re still trying to prove that this is a viable option

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8 hours ago, Lofty said:

As a QPR fan I am very sensitive to over paying players. If the current CPL players could earn more elsewhere, they would be playing elsewhere. That means they are not being under paid.

A player deserves a raise when another club is willing to pay him more, and not before (the exception might be if the CPL salary is so low that the player is considering quitting and the CPL club values him enough to want to pay more to keep him).

A higher cap should mean better talent, not more money for existing players. Only CPL players that must be paid more to stay need be given a raise.

That mindset probably makes sense for players making 6, 7, or 8 figures. But the salary cap for players is under 1 million (if anyone wants to dispute since we don't have official numbers, Kurt Larson has said this on air for onesoccer). Let's say it's 950,000, spread across about 23 players. That's an average of 41k. If you have a couple of guys on the higher end making 75k, that leaves 38k per person for the rest. Obviously everyone isn't making the exact same amount, so let's say the bottom is 30k, or maybe even 25k. We aren't talking about massive raises, but an extra 5 or 10k would go a long way for players in this sort of a pay range to allow them to focus more on soccer. It's a bit foolish to say that if this player making 25k was worth 30k they would just go somewhere that will pay them 30k.

We have had a decent number of players quit the game completely from the NASL days because there comes a point in a person's life when they have to start making money. I think trying to avoid that would be the reason to drive up player salaries in the CPL.

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9 hours ago, Lofty said:

As a QPR fan I am very sensitive to over paying players. If the current CPL players could earn more elsewhere, they would be playing elsewhere. That means they are not being under paid.

A player deserves a raise when another club is willing to pay him more, and not before (the exception might be if the CPL salary is so low that the player is considering quitting and the CPL club values him enough to want to pay more to keep him).

A higher cap should mean better talent, not more money for existing players. Only CPL players that must be paid more to stay need be given a raise.

People have already shared some of my expanded thoughts on this, but I'll add that I'm sure that when the players signed their initial contract, they were told "we can only pay you X dollars because we're still getting this league up and running and we don't know what we can afford."  And quite a few players would buy in, because it's true.  They'd be part of founding it and helping it develop.  But once additional funds are available, I can see them going back to the teams and saying "ok, now I want X + Y".  

 

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1 hour ago, narduch said:

The only thing I've seen is some L10 players didn't make the jump because the wages were too low

CPL isn't just bidding against other leagues for talent, it's bidding against Great West Life, Simon Fraser University, RBC, General Motors, Bell, Loblaws, you name it.  The list goes on and on.  People can't put their careers on hold forever pursuing a footballing dream if the wage gap is too great.       

Now if you believe there's enough as yet untapped Canadian talent out there that seasonal player attrition (which I don't expect we'll see a lot of just yet) means your team should be shielded from declining returns because of player turn over then your team is less likely to be effected by the inflationary wage pressures of a very tight labour market.  But I'm not seeing that. 

Maybe at the bottom of every teams roster you can look at what your wage investment is returning and think you can do just as good or better with a rookie face but I think that judgment very quickly turns as you look higher up the roster.

AND if you want to be a development league you have to hold onto your developing talent and that's going to cost you.  It's as simple as that.  

Quality Canadian players, existing or developing, are going to be expensive when compared to relatively equal foreign talent.  They will be had at a premium.  It's a quota league, it will happen, and I wouldn't have it any other way.   

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Kent is completely correct on this.  If you are talking about clubs like QPR with payrolls in the millions the logic of "not being underpaid unless someone else is offering to pay you more" works.  But if the wages on the low side in CPL are not enough to keep the young pros that are the lifeblood of the league from quitting soccer, you wont have a CDN league very long.  All the kids desperate for prosoccer chances that accepted starvation wages this year need to be looked after as well.  As for the theory about giving any extra cap room to the higher end players, that only has so much merit.  Look at Valour, wasted money on supposed top end talent Hoyle, but spent practically nothing on Attardo.  Even Paloucci...I'd rather scour the bushes and give shots to more CDN kids and find a few more Ongaro or Pasquottis.  And those guys need to be paid more than 7-11 wages.   And the expansion teams shouldnt be scared away by a salary cap that is 5-10% higher than it was this year.  

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CPL (IMO) is giving more field and less bench to potential CDN players. I treat this league and its teams with the same regard as any ardent fan of QPR or Scunthorpe or Tranmere. Everything I see has been done more properly than previous versions of a Canuck league. So stay on course, adjust accordingly (like making the top 4 teams get into playoffs) and don’t grow the product by dousing it with too much water or you’ll just drown it before it takes root.

CFL is not NFL but their ardent fans don’t care. Give CPL a 100 years, and get back to me. 😜

Edited by nighttrain

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