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I want to point out how ridiculous it is to suggest Marky Delgado is nothing more than just hustle. That's kinda like saying Sam Piette is nothing more than just hustle. Delgado is not my favorite, bu

Great first start. Too bad Vanney probably has another nephew who will come in and steal his spot.

Thought he played well for the most part last night against Leon. Has some great wheels. I wouldn't transition him to LB yet, even though he's the traits to excel in that position. He needs more playi

I want to point out how ridiculous it is to suggest Marky Delgado is nothing more than just hustle. That's kinda like saying Sam Piette is nothing more than just hustle. Delgado is not my favorite, but that seems like an unnecessary dig that isn't even very accurate, even though I get it because Delgado has a great "motor".

By the way, is describing a white player as having a great motor the equivalent of describing a black player as being "powerful"? Someone let me know...

Anyways, as far as Schaffleburg goes, I liked what I saw from him. Worked his tail off and players with that combination of effort and pace will always have some utility. I get what Shway is saying, that he doesn't have that 1v1 skill, but he can still beat players with his pace, so maybe wingback is in his future, who knows. I agree somewhat he has other good attributes that suggest he really does have a future at winger/forward.

The only take I kinda disagree with here is that he should be in the CPL. Why? He just very clearly had a good game in Champions League, and I know injuries have depleted Toronto, but he did get the start over players like Nelson and Rutty, players with much higher ceilings in my opinion, so my gut tells me Armas is going to give Jacob a chance here, and as long as that's the case any talk of CPL is just silly. If he ends up at that level eventually, then fine, but as long as he's getting MLS chances and doing well it's hard to imagine that CPL would somehow be better for him.

 

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18 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

I see a leftback playing the wing. I've said it for two years now. He's got elite speed and a decent cross. He can't score a goal to save his life and has no right foot. I don't know what they are waiting for. 

This deserves to be bolded. As far as our player pool goes, the only guy who clearly has better speed is Alphonso Davies. I am very tempted to put his speed above the likes of Buchanan and Millar, but if that is too far, he has to be at least considered on par with those two. Am I going too far here in saying that? 

Edited by Obinna
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34 minutes ago, Obinna said:

This deserves to be bolded. As far as our player pool goes, the only guy who clearly has better speed is Alphonso Davies. I am very tempted to put his speed above the likes of Buchanan and Millar, but if that is too far, he has to be at least considered on par with those two. Am I going too far here in saying that? 

 He ran the 200m in 22 seconds in high school, I think thats fairly decent. 

I bet he would be really close to Davies in a race. 

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1 hour ago, Mikmacdo said:

I see a leftback playing the wing. I've said it for two years now. He's got elite speed and a decent cross. He can't score a goal to save his life and has no right foot. I don't know what they are waiting for. 

because questionable 1v1 defensive skill?

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1 hour ago, Mikmacdo said:

I see a leftback playing the wing. I've said it for two years now. He's got elite speed and a decent cross. He can't score a goal to save his life and has no right foot. I don't know what they are waiting for. 

He just scored a nice one the other day.

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1 hour ago, Obinna said:

By the way, is describing a white player as having a great motor the equivalent of describing a black player as being "powerful"? Someone let me know...

Of course:

Black: strong, powerful, athletic

White: great motor, real gym rat, hustles

Latin: clever, crafty, technical

Asian: shifty, smart, honest

EDIT: obviously different historical underpinnings and practical implications for these prejudices, but you see it in every sport

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4 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Of course:

Black: strong, powerful, athletic

White: great motor, real gym rat, hustles

Latin: clever, crafty, technical

Asian: shifty, smart, honest

EDIT: obviously different historical underpinnings and practical implications for these prejudices, but you see it in every sport

And the common denominator is that each of those adjectives are positive. 

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6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

And the common denominator is that each of those adjectives are positive. 

On the face, sure :P

I read an interesting article about Jeremy Lin a little while ago. They spoke to an GM (Daryl Morey) who said that their models showed him to be a mid first round pick who was super athletic, but that he believed that Lin was unathletic. Morey didn't draft Lin (no one did), and Morey candidly said that the only reason he can think of that he believed Lin was unathletic is because he is Asian.

Goes to show just how powerful prejudices are, that a team would pass on a guy (presumably) due to his race, even if they know it makes sense to pick him up. The cream doesn't always rise to the top.

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13 minutes ago, El Diego said:

On the face, sure :P

I read an interesting article about Jeremy Lin a little while ago. They spoke to an GM (Daryl Morey) who said that their models showed him to be a mid first round pick who was super athletic, but that he believed that Lin was unathletic. Morey didn't draft Lin (no one did), and Morey candidly said that the only reason he can think of that he believed Lin was unathletic is because he is Asian.

Goes to show just how powerful prejudices are, that a team would pass on a guy (presumably) due to his race, even if they know it makes sense to pick him up. The cream doesn't always rise to the top.

That's interesting. Really good example of prejudice at play, how they can blind you, and how they can be to your detriment. That said, in the specific situation where a commentator is describing a player in a positive context, I don't see an issue, but that would be "on the face" of it.

Although spoken in a positive context at the time, we have the tendency to digest these often-repeated descriptors and re-interpret them in a negative light, therefore losing sight of the original context, or even re-imagining the context as negative, just because we feel negative about them in retrospect. 

Anyways, to break the mold, let me describe Jonathan David as a player: athletic, cleaver and shifty, with a great motor. :)

Edited by Obinna
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29 minutes ago, El Diego said:

On the face, sure :P

I read an interesting article about Jeremy Lin a little while ago. They spoke to an GM (Daryl Morey) who said that their models showed him to be a mid first round pick who was super athletic, but that he believed that Lin was unathletic. Morey didn't draft Lin (no one did), and Morey candidly said that the only reason he can think of that he believed Lin was unathletic is because he is Asian.

Goes to show just how powerful prejudices are, that a team would pass on a guy (presumably) due to his race, even if they know it makes sense to pick him up. The cream doesn't always rise to the top.

The flip side is that Lin was total shit for the Raps and is now playing in the G league, so maybe people just recognized something the models missed. 

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27 minutes ago, Obinna said:

That's interesting. Really good example of prejudice at play, how they can blind you, and how they can be to your detriment. That said, in the specific situation where a commentator is describing a player in a positive context, I don't see an issue, but that would be "on the face" of it.

Although spoken in a positive context at the time, we have the tendency to digest these often-repeated descriptors and re-interpret them in a negative light, therefore losing sight of the original context, or even re-imagining the context as negative, just because we feel negative about them in retrospect. 

Anyways, to break the mold, let me describe Jonathan David as a player: athletic, cleaver and shifty, with a great motor. :)

Yeah, I think the issue becomes when one only views a player of a certain ethnicity through that lens, and assumes the player can not contain the opposite positive attribute e.g. black players are athletic so they can't be clever, white players work hard so they can't be athletic, etc.

10 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

The flip side is that Lin was total shit for the Raps and is now playing in the G league, so maybe people just recognized something the models missed. 

Lol he was at the end of his career and barely got any minutes (not that he was expected to). Lin had a solid career with a pretty good peak, certainly better than his (lack of) draft position and opportunity. Not sure what the models would have missed, that he would be ineffective (but winning a ring :P) at 31 after some serious injuries?

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24 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Yeah, I think the issue becomes when one only views a player of a certain ethnicity through that lens, and assumes the player can not contain the opposite positive attribute e.g. black players are athletic so they can't be clever, white players work hard so they can't be athletic, etc.

Lol he was at the end of his career and barely got any minutes (not that he was expected to). Lin had a solid career with a pretty good peak, certainly better than his (lack of) draft position and opportunity. Not sure what the models would have missed, that he would be ineffective (but winning a ring :P) at 31 after some serious injuries?

Fair.  I have only been following bball closely for the 3 or 4 years since my son got heavily into it.  My experience of Lin is his time with the Raps and the fact that he was a running joke at our house.  

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26 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Yeah, I think the issue becomes when one only views a player of a certain ethnicity through that lens, and assumes the player can not contain the opposite positive attribute e.g. black players are athletic so they can't be clever, white players work hard so they can't be athletic, etc.

Can't argue with that. Very applicable to the Jeremy Lin example you gave. 

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4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Fair.  I have only been following bball closely for the 3 or 4 years since my son got heavily into it.  My experience of Lin is his time with the Raps and the fact that he was a running joke at our house.  

There is a bad memory that Raptors fans have of Lin which was the height of "Linsanity" about ten years ago. Raptors were up 13 in the 4th quarter. but the Knicks came back to win. In retrospect, Linsanity was a really weird phenomenon.

 

His time with the Raps was super meme tbf

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3 minutes ago, El Diego said:

There is a bad memory that Raptors fans have of Lin which was the height of "Linsanity" about ten years ago. Raptors were up 13 in the 4th quarter. but the Knicks came back to win. In retrospect, Linsanity was a really weird phenomenon.

 

His time with the Raps was super meme tbf

I for one really enjoyed "Linsanity", even though that particular moment was very painful. 

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2 hours ago, El Diego said:

Of course:

Black: strong, powerful, athletic

White: great motor, real gym rat, hustles

Latin: clever, crafty, technical

Asian: shifty, smart, honest

EDIT: obviously different historical underpinnings and practical implications for these prejudices, but you see it in every sport

I see the biggest risk here where a stereotype takes the place of actually looking and scouting a player. Because that takes time and effort a lot of people would be better served by adjusting their answers (eg.  this player MAY be like that player). 

That said the narrative of racial stereotypes for athletes in some ways has gotten larger than actually occurrence of said stereotyping. The motivation (anti-racist) isn't bad but some of those descriptors are accurate of players who fall into those respective categories and not true for others. You can't or don't accurately describe players because of a fear (real or not) of someone going after you.

That said, my impression of Shaffelburg is that he has a great motor, a solid left foot, and as others have shared not much finishing. He may be better suited farther back but likely plays forward as it make sense for him to do so at lower levels as he would have been the best and fastest player on the pitch (of which he's maybe only one of those now).

Edited by yomurphy1
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23 minutes ago, yomurphy1 said:

I see the biggest risk here where a stereotype takes the place of actually looking and scouting a player. Because that takes time and effort a lot of people would be better served by adjusting their answers (eg.  this player MAY be like that player). 

That said the narrative of racial stereotypes for athletes in some ways has gotten larger than actually occurrence of said stereotyping. The motivation (anti-racist) isn't bad but some of those descriptors are accurate of players who fall into those respective categories and not true for others. You can't or don't accurately describe players because of a fear (real or not) of someone going after you.

That said, my impression of Shaffelburg is that he has a great motor, a solid left foot, and as others have shared not much finishing. He may be better suited farther back but likely plays forward as it make sense for him to do so at lower levels as he would have been the best and fastest player on the pitch (of which he's maybe only one of those now).

Agree with everything you say, couldn't have put it better myself.

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I think Jeremy Lin was overhyped because he was an Asian playing in the league, and had a good stretch of games, on a historic struggling franchise like New York. 

But this is common for a lot of guys, or it happens in the league more often than not. It was Ben Wallace, Brad Miller before him and Tyler Johnson, and Fred Vanvleet after. 

Linsanity was nothing more than hot streak and a great marketing opportunity to the Asian community since Yao Ming. Ultimately he's was/not good.

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When he first got minutes with TFC he was a breath of fresh air because he was so fast and direct when no other attacker on the team really was but he found playing time harder to come by later and especially last year since the rest of the league had figured out he was basically a one-trick pony - run fast to the endline and cross.

What impressed me about the Leon game and the clips I saw of him with Canada is he seems willing and able to cut inside and combine/pass/shoot now. So I'm much higher on him as a winger especially than I was last year

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2 hours ago, Shway said:

I think Jeremy Lin was overhyped because he was an Asian playing in the league, and had a good stretch of games, on a historic struggling franchise like New York. 

But this is common for a lot of guys, or it happens in the league more often than not. It was Ben Wallace, Brad Miller before him and Tyler Johnson, and Fred Vanvleet after. 

Linsanity was nothing more than hot streak and a great marketing opportunity to the Asian community since Yao Ming. Ultimately he's was/not good.

Ben Wallace is a bad example. 4x All Star, 4x defensive player of the year. The Pistons even retired his number. 

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7 hours ago, El Diego said:

On the face, sure :P

I read an interesting article about Jeremy Lin a little while ago. They spoke to an GM (Daryl Morey) who said that their models showed him to be a mid first round pick who was super athletic, but that he believed that Lin was unathletic. Morey didn't draft Lin (no one did), and Morey candidly said that the only reason he can think of that he believed Lin was unathletic is because he is Asian.

Goes to show just how powerful prejudices are, that a team would pass on a guy (presumably) due to his race, even if they know it makes sense to pick him up. The cream doesn't always rise to the top.

I think that is a very good example of unconscious bias. It’s good that Morey acknowledged it. Maybe now he can say something about the Hong Kong protests...

😆

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