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David Wotherspoon


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2 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Is he..I didnt the game??  Coming of a serious injury and a 10month lay off, it might take more than one start to be back to his old self.  

I agree it takes more than one start. But hes been doing more than 1 start. He has had sub appearances and played games in friendlies. I think its important to note that his main goal is the world cup so he isnt rushing back and also he was able to win his starting spot against rangers. Obviously he is preforming very well in training and his sub appearances to warrant a starting spot against the top 1/2 in the league. He also was back on the training pitch after 4 months so to call his lay off 10 months seems a bit misleading.

I've seen him given a rating of 8.3 for his performance against rangers. If he got this rating against rangers prior to his injury, we would be quite pleased with it. 

Maybe saying he is his old self is misleading. I probably should say something like "he is preforming at the standard expected of a CMNT player and St Johnstone starter.  

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13 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think you are rephrasing what I am saying and that shifts the argument.  I am not claiming that 200 minutes against the minnows is what makes him a lock (You forgot to mention the bigger teams he played against, which again shifts the argument). I am claiming how he has earned the trust of herdman and has been at every squad if hes available. Fraser has not been there every time. The level of trust is different. 

We also have to acknowledge the other options. Oso is not training yet for bahrain which further increases wotherspoons chances. I'd say Spoony had a good chance of making the squad if all of our CM options were available. Now with our CM in shambles, surely his chances have skyrocketed. 

I also am not sure which games you claim that fraser has played in that are bigger matches than wotherspoon. Wotherspoon started the most pivotal match of WCQ. I am not sure there is a more important match than that. Did Fraser start any games in WCQ?

Getting into the semantics, I think you do make a good point that he may not be a "lock". However, on a balance of probabilities, he has a strong chance of being on the plane. Using the "lock" argument though does seem a bit like fence sitting. Is kone a lock as a young player. MAK is out of form, is he a lock. Ugbo?  If you were to divide the players into:

1. Guaranteed at all costs.
2. Will be going to qatar
3. Has a chance but could go wither way
4. Unlikely
5. No chance

I think Spoony is #2. Technically not a lock but hes on the plane. 

In retrospect, Panama was a massive turning point in qualifying but I'm not sure that it was treated as the most important game in qualifying at the time (although one could say, the next game was always the most important).

Fraser played a massive role in the 2019 Nations League victory over the USA and was key in locking down our victory against Honduras in San Pedro Sula in qualifying. We're comparing 103 minutes in the octo vs. 105 minutes in the octo. The margins aren't really that massive. 

I don't think we view this much differently, but Spoony is #3 more than #2 to me.  

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Well he was a starter so obviously they would throw him back out to start again eventually wouldnt they, if only to see if he was ready. I like Spoony and dont want to be an ass, but I dont follow him that closely to know how good he has been in his games let along training, but thats a long time with no games (Oso i dont think has ever stopped training, but no full speed games in a long time).  I'm sure you have seen guys that have the effects or look sluggish for a long time after they come back from an injury like that.    All those guys are suspect because of health eh??  Herdman has called guys in that are hurt and werent ready to play though, so who knows what he'll do.  

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3 hours ago, jonovision said:

I don't think appearances is the metric here, it's how often did the player get on the roster when healthy and available. I don't know how many windows he was selected, but I believe it was at least 2.

I think it was one window only,  the first one.  And played in only one of those games. It was the last game versus ES.  Again, I dont see how this makes someone a lock to be on the team.  

If he is called, great, we will be cheering for him.  But discussion forum are more interesting when discussions are based rational arguments.   Rather than wishful thinking.  There is a lot of wishfull thinking, or cheering for certain player for various reason (ie.:  personal interset, vested interest, the league that they play in, their background… etc etc) rather than discussing based what is known about the player and the probable out come.  

this is not directed at you per se.   but just a general obsevation about several of these posts.  One post above infers that Waterman is lock.   How so?  As far as i know, he has never been called up for Canada. And didn’t have a particularly good play off.  Now some are cheering for the CPL guy, i get that.  But its one thing to say “I hope”, its another thing to say “its a lock”.  There are other players who have been called up and that Herdman or Biello got to see during WCQ or OCQ,  wouldn’t it be obvious that those guys are ahead on the pecking order?

Edited by Free kick
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48 minutes ago, Pottsy3 said:

In retrospect, Panama was a massive turning point in qualifying but I'm not sure that it was treated as the most important game in qualifying at the time (although one could say, the next game was always the most important).

Fraser played a massive role in the 2019 Nations League victory over the USA and was key in locking down our victory against Honduras in San Pedro Sula in qualifying. We're comparing 103 minutes in the octo vs. 105 minutes in the octo. The margins aren't really that massive. 

I don't think we view this much differently, but Spoony is #3 more than #2 to me.  

I would argue that was THE game, not just in hindsight but at the time. At that point we were hoping for 3rd and panama was the team who was looking like they would be 3rd. If we lose that game, it could be a very different qualifying cycle. We had tied several games and were desperate for points. Panama at home was a must win. I don't think there is any game in qualifying that was so important to win. Without it as a turning point, we dont win the octo. 

Great play from fraser for both but surely a nations league game is not a higher importance than WCQ. Honduras away is also not more important than the panama game. This is my point though, I am not comparing minutes played, I am comparing trust by herdman. Fraser did not start either of those games we are talking about. Fraser was available the whole octo and has the same minutes as spoony who missed half the games. Fraser has never been an automatic call up every single time. Spoony has. When you look at the context of spoony, he is part of the squad 10/10 if hes healthy and the only variable with him now is that hes coming back from an injury but hes been on the pitch for 7-8 months to prepare for this.  

I agree, We are very similar in our view but are differing on which side of the line we fall on.  I love the debate!

42 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Well he was a starter so obviously they would throw him back out to start again eventually wouldnt they, if only to see if he was ready. I like Spoony and dont want to be an ass, but I dont follow him that closely to know how good he has been in his games let along training, but thats a long time with no games (Oso i dont think has ever stopped training, but no full speed games in a long time).  I'm sure you have seen guys that have the effects or look sluggish for a long time after they come back from an injury like that.    All those guys are suspect because of health eh??  Herdman has called guys in that are hurt and werent ready to play though, so who knows what he'll do.  

I don't believe that any team just throws out a former starter. You always have to earn your spot. You certainly would not just throw a guy out there against the best team in the league to see if hes good enough.  

I dont think youre being an ass at all, same for pottsy. I love the debate and i think we all can debate and still agree to disagree.  Keep standing up for your opinion! 

I do agree that he could still see some effects of his injury. I dont think anyone would have guessed he would be this good at this time after his injury though. 

Edited by Bigandy
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5 minutes ago, Free kick said:

I think it was one window only,  the first one.  And played in only one of those games. It was the last game versus Honduras.  Again, I dont see how this makes someone a lock to be on the team.   

That is not correct. Spoony was at every single game in all the rounds of qualifying except for 1 and both him and hoilett missed it because of covid quarantine rules in the UK. He obviously missed all the games after his injury but he was in every squad before that.  

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The tough thing about my hot take is that I can't ever be right. 

If hes not on the plane then im wrong.
If he is on the plane, we cant prove or disprove that he was a lock.  

Either way, Ill stick my neck on the line. Spoonys going to Qatar!

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Well you never know if a guys ready until he goes out and proves it eh? So sooner or later you have to take your former starter and trot him out and mb he is ready, mb not, you dont know for sure..that was my point.  I dont really have an opinion (i'm not watching anyone train or SPL), just skeptical about how these guys (all the injured mids) will play after long let offs.  And sometimes herdman picks guys coming off injuries, so it wouldnt surprise me if Oso and Atiba are there, up to speed and ready for Croatia or not.  I'm not sure Wotherpsoon has that kind of pull with Herdman and Kone has pushed himself into a roster spot that might have automatically gone to Spoony a year ago.  

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Do you bring in a mid who had a serious injury and was out 11 months for "insurance" in case Atiba & Oso who are also recovering from injuries can't go? That sounds a bit risky no? I have no idea who gets the last 2 spots, but there's no way Spoony is a lock. Btw I was at the Panama game and Spoony who did not have a strong game, was subbed out. Just mentioning that since you have referred to him starting that game. I trust JH and his coaching staff to make the right selections. They may be one surprise, but barring injuries doubt it will be more than that.

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9 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

. Btw I was at the Panama game and Spoony who did not have a strong game, was subbed out. 

I was going to say that as well.  But decided otherwise as it would defeat my point because some could always counter these arguement if they are rooting for someone.    Plus at the end of the day, we will be routing for everyone who gets called.  
 

But that was my sence as well.  

Edited by Free kick
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29 minutes ago, Free kick said:

I think it was one window only,  the first one.  And played in only one of those games. It was the last game versus ES.  Again, I dont see how this makes someone a lock to be on the team.  

If he is called, great, we will be cheering for him.  But discussion forum are more interesting when discussions are based rational arguments.   Rather than wishful thinking.  There is a lot of wishfull thinking, or cheering for certain player for various reason (ie.:  personal interset, vested interest, the league that they play in, their background… etc etc) rather than discussing based what is known about the player and the probable out come.  

this is not directed at you per se.   but just a general obsevation about several of these posts.  One post above infers that Waterman is lock.   How so?  As far as i know, he has never been called up for Canada. And didn’t have a particularly good play off.  Now some are cheering for the CPL guy, i get that.  But its one thing to say “I hope”, its another thing to say “its a lock”.  There are other players who have been called up and that Herdman or Biello got to see during WCQ or OCQ,  wouldn’t it be obvious that those guys are ahead on the pecking order?

I totally agree about that it should be about rational based arguments.

Here are mine for:

1. Herdman is known to trust the same core group of guys with just a few guys fighting for spots. 
2. Spoony was selected every single time he was available. He is part of the core group that herdman trusts. 
2b. If spoony can always make a 23 squad, then a 26 squad should be easier.
3. Our CM position is an absolute mess. 
4. We will most likely take 7-8 mids. staq, hutch,oso, MAK, piette, kone. That leaves 1-2 spots assuming Oso comes (he isnt even training). The only possible options based on call ups in the past are fraser and spoony. 
5. Spoony brings experience
6. Spoony brings versatility
7. Spoony has been playing great in limited appearances
8. Fraser has not been playing great at a lower level

Arguments against spoony going to Qatar:
1. He isnt physically ready - This is just a random statement without the scientific backing of his recovery. The only medical information that we as fans are privy to is the fact that he is starting big games in scotland. I would say that proves he is physically ready to provide some minutes off the bench if required. If a team of experts thinks hes ready physically then im not going to overrule them from my keyboard. 
2. He isn't match sharp after a lengthy lay off - Poor argument as MAK, Hutch, Oso, Fraser are all in worse form or have played less than him. In his limited games, he has been playing well. Does this mean that he will be consistent, who knows. However, his performances since he has come back from injury are better than what MAK, Fraser, Hutch, and Oso have put in for months (obv oso and hutch are due to injury)
3. He isnt good enough to get a seat on the plane. - I disagree. After him in the depth chart is Fraser. Whos next. Neslon? Okello?  There just is no depth at this position. 
4. Consistency. After being out for so long, will he be able to be consistent. Has he lost a bit of sharpness? - Good point. My counter to this is, he isnt playing significant minutes at the WC regardless of if hes injured on not. Has he lost sharpness. Good point but he showed against rangers who are a champions league team that he can preform well. Who else in our player pool (not including positions 1-6 in the depth chart) can say they can perform at that level. 

I am not a huge spoony fanboy. I am doing my best to use rational reasoning to pick a 26 and I see many credible arguments for spoony, and the only one that really stands up against spoony is that we don't entirely know how spoony will do because our sample size( where hes met the standard), post injury, is too small.   

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Spoony flew into Toronto from Scotland to celebrate clinching Qualification after he tore is ACL.  I don't even think Shaffelburg was included in the celebrations, and he was based in Toronto at the time.  There were a few others that flew in to celebrate with that final roster as well.

I too find it hard to believe that Wotherspoon will not be in Qatar as he was included in every 23-25 man Canada roster during qualification.  He is part of the brotherhood and in a position of need.  I suspect he will be included for Qatar and then retire to prolong his club career but perhaps another Gold Cup is in the books.  He will be 33 in January with a lot of young Canadian talent coming down the pipeline.

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4 hours ago, Bigandy said:

The tough thing about my hot take is that I can't ever be right. 

If hes not on the plane then im wrong.
If he is on the plane, we cant prove or disprove that he was a lock.  

Either way, Ill stick my neck on the line. Spoonys going to Qatar!

Yes. Thats a bit more like it.  i too actaully think he will be on the team.  I’d say that it wouldnt be a bad bet that he will be.   My only issue all along are the notions that he is “a lock”.  Davies, David, Buchanan and Eustaquio are locks to be on the team.  There are maybe another six maybe who are quasi-locks or almost locks.   I cant put him in this same category and dont how some can,  that was my only issue. 
 

edit.: upon thorough reflection here is my rough odds of Wotherspoon chances:

1) chances to be on the squad: 50-55%.  That might drop to 45% -50% if there weren’t for 26 man squads instead of 23 man squads. 

2) Chances he will get minutes at the WC:  10-20%

3) Chances he will get significant minutes at WC: 5%

There are 3 games and five subs allowed this time.  So he could get on late in a game as fresh legs are needed and to kill time.  If there are injuries, he could get something more like significant minutes.  He is a classsic bubble guy.

 

Edited by Free kick
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15 hours ago, Bigandy said:

 

I totally agree about that it should be about rational based arguments.

Here are mine for:

1. Herdman is known to trust the same core group of guys with just a few guys fighting for spots. 
2. Spoony was selected every single time he was available. He is part of the core group that herdman trusts. 
2b. If spoony can always make a 23 squad, then a 26 squad should be easier.
3. Our CM position is an absolute mess. 
4. We will most likely take 7-8 mids. staq, hutch,oso, MAK, piette, kone. That leaves 1-2 spots assuming Oso comes (he isnt even training). The only possible options based on call ups in the past are fraser and spoony. 
5. Spoony brings experience
6. Spoony brings versatility
7. Spoony has been playing great in limited appearances
8. Fraser has not been playing great at a lower level

Arguments against spoony going to Qatar:
1. He isnt physically ready - This is just a random statement without the scientific backing of his recovery. The only medical information that we as fans are privy to is the fact that he is starting big games in scotland. I would say that proves he is physically ready to provide some minutes off the bench if required. If a team of experts thinks hes ready physically then im not going to overrule them from my keyboard. 
2. He isn't match sharp after a lengthy lay off - Poor argument as MAK, Hutch, Oso, Fraser are all in worse form or have played less than him. In his limited games, he has been playing well. Does this mean that he will be consistent, who knows. However, his performances since he has come back from injury are better than what MAK, Fraser, Hutch, and Oso have put in for months (obv oso and hutch are due to injury)
3. He isnt good enough to get a seat on the plane. - I disagree. After him in the depth chart is Fraser. Whos next. Neslon? Okello?  There just is no depth at this position. 
4. Consistency. After being out for so long, will he be able to be consistent. Has he lost a bit of sharpness? - Good point. My counter to this is, he isnt playing significant minutes at the WC regardless of if hes injured on not. Has he lost sharpness. Good point but he showed against rangers who are a champions league team that he can preform well. Who else in our player pool (not including positions 1-6 in the depth chart) can say they can perform at that level. 

I am not a huge spoony fanboy. I am doing my best to use rational reasoning to pick a 26 and I see many credible arguments for spoony, and the only one that really stands up against spoony is that we don't entirely know how spoony will do because our sample size( where hes met the standard), post injury, is too small.   

It's kinda sad and unfortunate we keep omitting Choiniere from the list of availabe mids.  He's had a better year (maybe years) than Kaye and on a better team.  Only thing keeping him out is this brotherhood mumbo jumbo bullshit.  I love Fraser, Oso, Kaye and obviously the king of them all, Hutch, but none of these guys are ready for more than a few minutes or our best at the moment.  Choiniere is.

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7 minutes ago, costarg said:

It's kinda sad and unfortunate we keep omitting Choiniere from the list of availabe mids.  He's had a better year (maybe years) than Kaye and on a better team.  Only thing keeping him out is this brotherhood mumbo jumbo bullshit.  I love Fraser, Oso, Kaye and obviously the king of them all, Hutch, but none of these guys are ready for more than a few minutes or our best at the moment.  Choiniere is.

While I surely wouldn't be super confident starting any of those guys (Choiniere included) right now in a world cup, I definitely agree that he deserves more credit. I don't believe we've seen the best of Choiniere yet either. His role has continued to grow at FC Montreal.

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14 hours ago, Free kick said:

Yes. Thats a bit more like it.  i too actaully think he will be on the team.  I’d say that it wouldnt be a bad bet that he will be.   My only issue all along are the notions that he is “a lock”.  Davies, David, Buchanan and Eustaquio are locks to be on the team.  There are maybe another six maybe who are quasi-locks or almost locks.   I cant put him in this same category and dont how some can,  that was my only issue. 
 

edit.: upon thorough reflection here is my rough odds of Wotherspoon chances:

1) chances to be on the squad: 50-55%.  That might drop to 45% -50% if there weren’t for 26 man squads instead of 23 man squads. 

2) Chances he will get minutes at the WC:  10-20%

3) Chances he will get significant minutes at WC: 5%

There are 3 games and five subs allowed this time.  So he could get on late in a game as fresh legs are needed and to kill time.  If there are injuries, he could get something more like significant minutes.  He is a classsic bubble guy.

 

I think we view the definiton of a lock differently. To me, a lock is someone who is going to qatar and their spot is not up for debate. Not our best players - although that often overlaps. 

Davies, David, Buchanan, Stach, Vitoria, borjan, johnston, miller, larin, piette, laryea, sam, holiett, cavallini,  st clair, crepeau (pre injury), Kone MAK, Oso and hutch if fit, are all locks for our world cup squad.  Sure MAK is in terrible form but based on experience, positional depth etc hes for sure going to the world cup, but does anyone think his ticket is not booked.

Then quasi locks are ugbo although i think hes on the plane, millar- although i can see the debate around him. 

Up for debate - corbenau, henry, cornelius, waterman, brym, koleosho, maybe millar? , fraser

I think wotherspoon is part of the squad in herdmans eyes. Hes part of the group that are locks given all the reasons in my other posts. 

The reality of our national team is that we have a drop off after our top 30 or so. Most of our guys are locks and have been for every qualifying window. We arent a top nation where its small margins that seperate a call up from the next. We all know a guy like Vitoria is crucial to our squad. Can  anyone say his spot is up for debate.  If you look at my locks list, when was the last time any of them were not called up if they were available. Can anyone say that the honestly believe anyone from that list has their spot up for debate? (if available).  

1- I disagree with your percentages for #1 but can see your point.
2- i think its more like 25-50% he sees the field. he seems like a good sub in the final minutes if we are winning or tying. basically agree with your statement of fresh legs, kill time etc. 
3- i agree. He isnt getting substantial minutes. 

I also agree he is a classic bubble guy for getting minutes. He isnt a bubble guy in the squad though. He was a very firm call up every window until his injury. Brym or corbeanu are bubble guys where you do not know if they will make the squad or not. When healthy, spoony was always called up. 

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45 minutes ago, costarg said:

It's kinda sad and unfortunate we keep omitting Choiniere from the list of availabe mids.  He's had a better year (maybe years) than Kaye and on a better team.  Only thing keeping him out is this brotherhood mumbo jumbo bullshit.  I love Fraser, Oso, Kaye and obviously the king of them all, Hutch, but none of these guys are ready for more than a few minutes or our best at the moment.  Choiniere is.

I would love to see more of Choiniere but theres more to his exclusion than brotherhood bullshit. 

1. brotherhood.
2. experience. we have no idea what we would get from him in CMNT... especially at a world cup. It's tough to take the risk of selecting him over fraser because we know better what we would get with fraser.
3. Him vs kaye is marginal and debatable. If he produced like kone, the conversation is different. But does choiniere bring substantially more soccer AND non tangibles to the squad than kaye? I dont think its very clear. 
4. Team chemistry. All of our guys have worked crazy hard to understand the tactical flexibility that herdman asks. This extends beyond the camps. Choiniere has never been included in this work. 
5. to break up a squad, Choiniere cant just be equal to the other options. He has to be substantially better or else why would you risk team chemistry, forgo loyalty, forgo experience, etc. 
6. It doesnt matter if choiniere is able to give major minutes at the tournament. There is no way he would get those minutes. So the question should be, in a potential sub appearance is he the guy we go to? Stach, piette, Kone are all able to log huge minutes. Compliment them with sub appearances from oso, hutch, kaye, spoony, hoilett as a 10?, fraser? and I dont see any reality where choiniere touches the field, let alone logs huge minutes. 

Basically the question is, does choiniere bring a substantial amount more to the squad than the guys ahead of him. In the non tangibles like experience etc he brings less to the table. In terms of on field skill, it is debatable if he provides anything more than our top 7 players at that position.  I hope his time will come and he gets opportunities, but the first world cup in decades is too soon for him in my opinion. 

 

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On 11/8/2022 at 8:27 AM, Bigandy said:

Basically the question is, does choiniere bring a substantial amount more to the squad than the guys ahead of him. In the non tangibles like experience etc he brings less to the table. In terms of on field skill, it is debatable if he provides anything more than our top 7 players at that position.  I hope his time will come and he gets opportunities, but the first world cup in decades is too soon for him in my opinion. 

 

Choinere should definitely get his deserved chance in Nations League and Gold Cup matches. This will be part of a gradual changing of the guard for the CMNT. 

AS part of that proccess, the CSA must encourage the development of defenders especially CB's. I hope that some young Canadians progress in that position.

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20 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

Choinere should definitely get his deserved chance in Nations League and Gold Cup matches. This will be part of a gradual changing of the guard for the CMNT. 

AS part of that proccess, the CSA must encourage the development of defenders especially CB's. I hope that some young Canadians progress in that position.

Assuming Kone and Wanyama are in fact out, I really hope Choiniere and Zouhir can increase their minutes in 2023.

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