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David Wotherspoon


IceCreamMan

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

This likely does mean that it may come down to hard decisions on certain players. Though with Davies iffy, likely coming off an injury that may slow down his attacking pace, are we clear about making it a choice between Millar and Corbeanu? 

We know what Herdman does if Davies is iffy or not available as we saw it for half of WCQ. Millar/Corbeanu are not a part of that picture. And a like for like replacement, when the player you are trying to replace is Davies, seems foolish to me anyway.

If Davies misses real time Canada will have to adjust tactically with the personnel that Herdman trusts for footballing reasons. That includes guys like Osorio and Henry and not some of the putative replacements.

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31 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Mak and Spoony have very different skill sets. Spoony is more similar to Oso than anyone else. Mak is more of a deep lying playmaker.

Mak and Fraser are the more comparable players. 

While I don't disagree with your assessments, the fact is we have Eustaquio, Hutch, Piette and Kone who can play the 6 to 8 role and only Osorio (and now Eustquio) who are more the 10.  I think the reason we don't have more offensive minded players on the team is the fact we just dont have them and that is why having a fully fit and in form Wotherspoon would knock out an out of form Kaye in my opinion.

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40 minutes ago, An Observer said:

While I don't disagree with your assessments, the fact is we have Eustaquio, Hutch, Piette and Kone who can play the 6 to 8 role and only Osorio (and now Eustquio) who are more the 10.  I think the reason we don't have more offensive minded players on the team is the fact we just dont have them and that is why having a fully fit and in form Wotherspoon would knock out an out of form Kaye in my opinion.

I totally agree, this is where Flores and Mitrovic would have been useful and probably would have played at this world cup, considering the circumstances.

They can now rot in international football hell 😜

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Assuming Waterman is included in the 26, there are 2 spots open for a group that includes Millar, Corbeanu, Wotherspoon & Brym.  We all have our favourites and players we don't rate, but if fit, all the regular incumbents that got us to the WC will be in the 24, which means  Millar may get that 25th spot leaving 1 open for the other 3. 

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2 hours ago, Kadenge said:

Assuming Waterman is included in the 26, there are 2 spots open for a group that includes Millar, Corbeanu, Wotherspoon & Brym.  We all have our favourites and players we don't rate, but if fit, all the regular incumbents that got us to the WC will be in the 24, which means  Millar may get that 25th spot leaving 1 open for the other 3. 

I think Millar and Spoony are locks. I am not sure who your regular 24 are if you leave spoony and millar out of that? An X indicates that i think the player is a lock. 

1. Borjan x
2. St Clair x
3. Pantemis x
4. Laryea x
5.Johnston x
6.Vitoria x
7.Miller x
8.Henry/Waterman/Cornelius x (one of them is a lock)
9.Adekugbe x 
10.Buchanan x
11. Hutch x
12. Stache x
13. Kaye x
14. Piette x 
15. Kone x
16. David x
17. Larin x
18.Ugbo x
19. Davies x
20. Cav x
21.Oso... maybe Fraser? if he isnt fit and we need another CM..
22. Hoilett x
23. Millar x
24. Spoony x
25. Corbenau
26. Henry/Waterman/Cornelius. Maybe Fraser for cm depth. maybe koleosho for the cap tie.

(non locks - Oso due to health, Corbenau, spot 26... is it cb depth, cm depth, or going for youth. 
Guys who are next in line. (Especially if oso or hutch cant go)
27. Fraser
28. Brym
29. Koleosho
30. Henry/Waterman/Cornelius 


To me, the roster is picking itself with just a few questions. 
1. Which CB gets the nod. I think Henry. 
2. Does 1 of waterman, cornelius get a call. I think yes but it may depend on oso and hutch. The last spot may be needed for cm depth.
3. Is oso or hutch able to go. I think both get the call.
4. Does Koleosho get the call for the cap tie. I think no.
5. Does Corbenau come or do we use this attacking spot for either a cb or fraser. I think corbenau comes. 

Edited by Bigandy
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1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

Assuming Waterman is included in the 26, there are 2 spots open for a group that includes Millar, Corbeanu, Wotherspoon & Brym.  We all have our favourites and players we don't rate, but if fit, all the regular incumbents that got us to the WC will be in the 24, which means  Millar may get that 25th spot leaving 1 open for the other 3. 

So Millar is in and then leaves Corbeanu, Wotherspoon and Byrm.

I'd go with Spoony simply because of the disaster that can happen in our midfield. Oso and Hutch big ?s

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1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I think Millar and Spoony are locks. I am not sure who your regular 24 are if you leave spoony and millar out of that? An X indicates that i think the player is a lock. 

1. Borjan x
2. St Clair x
3. Pantemis x
4. Laryea x
5.Johnston x
6.Vitoria x
7.Miller x
8.Henry/Waterman/Cornelius x (one of them is a lock)
9.Adekugbe x 
10.Buchanan x
11. Hutch x
12. Stache x
13. Kaye x
14. Piette x 
15. Kone x
16. David x
17. Larin x
18.Ugbo x
19. Kaye x
20. Cav x
21.Oso... maybe Fraser? if he isnt fit and we need another CM..
22. Hoilett x
23. Millar x
24. Spoony x
25. Corbenau
26. Henry/Waterman/Cornelius. Maybe Fraser for cm depth. maybe koleosho for the cap tie.

(non locks - Oso due to health, Corbenau, spot 26... is it cb depth, cm depth, or going for youth. 
Guys who are next in line. (Especially if oso or hutch cant go)
27. Fraser
28. Brym
29. Koleosho
30. Henry/Waterman/Cornelius 


To me, the roster is picking itself with just a few questions. 
1. Which CB gets the nod. I think Henry. 
2. Does 1 of waterman, cornelius get a call. I think yes but it may depend on oso and hutch. The last spot may be needed for cm depth.
3. Is oso or hutch able to go. I think both get the call.
4. Does Koleosho get the call for the cap tie. I think no.
5. Does Corbenau come or do we use this attacking spot for either a cb or fraser. I think corbenau comes. 

You have Kaye at position 13 and 19.

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1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I think Millar and Spoony are locks. I am not sure who your regular 24 are if you leave spoony and millar out of that? An X indicates that i think the player is a lock. 

1. Borjan x
2. St Clair x
3. Pantemis x
4. Laryea x
5.Johnston x
6.Vitoria x
7.Miller x
8.Henry/Waterman/Cornelius x (one of them is a lock)
9.Adekugbe x 
10.Buchanan x
11. Hutch x
12. Stache x
13. Kaye x
14. Piette x 
15. Kone x
16. David x
17. Larin x
18.Ugbo x
19. Kaye x
20. Cav x
21.Oso... maybe Fraser? if he isnt fit and we need another CM..
22. Hoilett x
23. Millar x
24. Spoony x
25. Corbenau
26. Henry/Waterman/Cornelius. Maybe Fraser for cm depth. maybe koleosho for the cap tie.

(non locks - Oso due to health, Corbenau, spot 26... is it cb depth, cm depth, or going for youth. 
Guys who are next in line. (Especially if oso or hutch cant go)
27. Fraser
28. Brym
29. Koleosho
30. Henry/Waterman/Cornelius 


To me, the roster is picking itself with just a few questions. 
1. Which CB gets the nod. I think Henry. 
2. Does 1 of waterman, cornelius get a call. I think yes but it may depend on oso and hutch. The last spot may be needed for cm depth.
3. Is oso or hutch able to go. I think both get the call.
4. Does Koleosho get the call for the cap tie. I think no.
5. Does Corbenau come or do we use this attacking spot for either a cb or fraser. I think corbenau comes. 

You left off Davies or am I blind 

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1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

So Millar is in and then leaves Corbeanu, Wotherspoon and Byrm.

I'd go with Spoony simply because of the disaster that can happen in our midfield. Oso and Hutch big ?s

I would say spoony is a 100% lock. It isnt even a question. He started his last game and played really well. Herdman likes him. Hes versatile and can offer depth at our problem position. 

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31 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Why would anybody be a lock who has featured in only (i think) one game in WCQ?   I would ask the same question about the earlier suggestion of another player being lock when he hasn't played at all in WCQ.   

I don't think appearances is the metric here, it's how often did the player get on the roster when healthy and available. I don't know how many windows he was selected, but I believe it was at least 2.

Edited by jonovision
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55 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Why would anybody be a lock who has featured in only (i think) one game in WCQ?   I would ask the same question about the earlier suggestion of another player being lock when he hasn't played at all in WCQ.   

He was involved in almost every single squad in WCQ until his injury. He is clearly part of the brotherhood and someone herdman relies on. He is in a position of extreme need and uncertainty, adds tactical versatility and is experienced.

Oso and hutch are question marks, MAK is in poor form, Kone is extremely young. stache is great, piette is solid but has limitations and fraser isnt doing great in div 2 belguim. I think with all of these various challenges, you want a bit more depth. When Herdman called up 23 in WCQ he usually named around 6-7 midfielders. Now when you add in 3 more spots and how crazy our cm situation is right now, you would have to assume you go with at least 7. 

1. oso - can he play?
2. hutch - Can he play? 
3. Stach
4. MAK - poor form 
5. Kone
6. Piette 
7. Wotherspoon 
8. The only other serious option at cm is fraser. 

Do you think we take fewer than 7 guys at this position? Or do you think there are other guys ahead of wotherspoon to fill out the 7 and if so, who? 

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1 hour ago, Free kick said:

Why would anybody be a lock who has featured in only (i think) one game in WCQ?   I would ask the same question about the earlier suggestion of another player being lock when he hasn't played at all in WCQ.   

I think you may be misinformed on wotherspoons contribution. Wotherspoon  got minutes in every single game before the Octogon. Then he was named in every single squad (except vs mexico due to covid quarantine requirements. Same as Hoilett) until his injury. He started against panama in what we thought was the most crucial game of qualifying.

I think you can turn it around and say, "Why would you not take a player who featured in every game in the first rounds of qualifying and then was part of every squad in the octo until his injury."

Who is the other player who you are referring to?

Edited by Bigandy
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12 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think you may be misinformed on wotherspoons contribution. Wotherspoon  got minutes in every single game before the Octogon. Then he was named in every single squad (I think) until his injury. He started against panama in what we thought was the most crucial game of qualifying.

I think you can turn it around and say, "Why would you not take a player who featured in every game in the first rounds of qualifying and then was part of every squad in the octo until his injury."

I get your point here, and I'm not arguing against Spoony on the squad... but I'm still not sure any of this makes him a lock.

Theo Corbeanu and ZBG were starting in those early rounds and scoring goals, and Ayo Akinola was beginning to be called to everything until a dire injury as well. Spoony is only recently healthy. Not advocating either way, but I wouldn't be bewildered to see Fraser on the squad and Spoony not. No doubt he's amongst the 20-30 group on the roster, not higher.

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7 minutes ago, Pottsy3 said:

I get your point here, and I'm not arguing against Spoony on the squad... but I'm still not sure any of this makes him a lock.

Theo Corbeanu and ZBG were starting in those early rounds and scoring goals, and Ayo Akinola was beginning to be called to everything until a dire injury as well. Spoony is only recently healthy. Not advocating either way, but I wouldn't be bewildered to see Fraser on the squad and Spoony not. No doubt he's amongst the 20-30 group on the roster, not higher.

Holy revisionist Batman! ZBG and Corbeanu combined for a total of 1 start and 181 minutes in WCQ - with only ZBG featuring in the Octo. Akinola was called to the gold cup and injured. 

By comparison Spoony had 3 starts and 308 minutes. 
 

Edited by CanadaFan123
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9 minutes ago, Pottsy3 said:

I get your point here, and I'm not arguing against Spoony on the squad... but I'm still not sure any of this makes him a lock.

Theo Corbeanu and ZBG were starting in those early rounds and scoring goals, and Ayo Akinola was beginning to be called to everything until a dire injury as well. Spoony is only recently healthy. Not advocating either way, but I wouldn't be bewildered to see Fraser on the squad and Spoony not. No doubt he's amongst the 20-30 group on the roster, not higher.

You know, I can get behind the fact that he isnt a 100% certainty like a davies or david is.  I think the probability is extremely high with the only threat of him not coming is if fraser comes and herdman doesnt opt to take both.  

I think that your examples are different to the spoony situation. Akinola would have been pushed down the depth chart if we had ugbo at the time. Plus akinola came back a different player. Spoony seems to have found his form and is his old self. 

Corbeanu is close to the squad and would be in it if we didnt have amazing winger/striker depth. Compare this with our CM depth and its not apples to apples.

ZBG - Again its a depth thing. Laryea, johnston and buchanan (maybe JR) are above him at FB and wingback. It is very rare to select more than 2 right backs, especially when you have a guy like buchanan who can play there if required. 

The biggest difference though is you are trying to compare minutes which are not crazy high for either. But we arent talking about minutes, we are talking about a seat on the plane. I think you should be comparing the faith shown in them by herdman. Herdman always selects wotherspoon if available. He doesnt always select corbeanu, ZBG, Ayo or Fraser. 

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30 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Holy revisionist Batman! ZBG and Corbeanu combined for a total of 1 start and 181 minutes in WCQ - with only ZBG featuring in the Octo. Akinola was called to the gold cup and injured. 

By comparison Spoony had 3 starts and 308 minutes. 
 

Starting was poor word choice, but they were both involved on the pitch prior to the octo and I recall each picking up their first national team goal at that time. Once again, I'm not stating that they'd be involved over Wotherspoon but I just don't think 200 minutes against Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Aruba, Suriname and Haiti have much indication on a player being a "lock" on the squad.

Just now, Bigandy said:

You know, I can get behind the fact that he isnt a 100% certainty like a davies or david is.  I think the probability is extremely high with the only threat of him not coming is if fraser comes and herdman doesnt opt to take both.  

I think that your examples are different to the spoony situation. Akinola would have been pushed down the depth chart if we had ugbo at the time. Plus akinola came back a different player. Spoony seems to have found his form and is his old self. 

Corbeanu is close to the squad and would be in it if we didnt have amazing winger/striker depth. Compare this with our CM depth and its not apples to apples.

ZBG - Again its a depth thing. Laryea, johnston and buchanan (maybe JR) are above him at FB and wingback. It is very rare to select more than 2 right backs, especially when you have a guy like buchanan who can play there if required. 

The biggest difference though is you are trying to compare minutes which are not crazy high for either. But we arent talking about minutes, we are talking about a seat on the plane. I think you should be comparing the faith shown in them by herdman. Herdman always selects wotherspoon if available. He doesnt always select corbeanu, ZBG, Ayo or Fraser. 

I was definitely not trying to advocate for any of these players. Phrased differently, I'm sure that Herdman has had much debate about whether to bring a guy like Liam Fraser who has played in bigger matches for the national team and is coming off of a full season (but at a lower level) versus a more veteran David Wotherspoon who recently started his first match in 11 months and has only started for Canada against Cuba, Cayman Islands, Aruba and Panama. At risk of sounding too semantical, I don't think either are considered "locks".

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3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:


I think that your examples are different to the spoony situation. Akinola would have been pushed down the depth chart if we had ugbo at the time. Plus akinola came back a different player. Spoony seems to have found his form and is his old self. 
 

Is he..I didnt the game??  Coming of a serious injury and a 10month lay off, it might take more than one start to be back to his old self.  

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3 minutes ago, Pottsy3 said:

Starting was poor word choice, but they were both involved on the pitch prior to the octo and I recall each picking up their first national team goal at that time. Once again, I'm not stating that they'd be involved over Wotherspoon but I just don't think 200 minutes against Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Aruba, Suriname and Haiti have much indication on a player being a "lock" on the squad.

I was definitely not trying to advocate for any of these players. Phrased differently, I'm sure that Herdman has had much debate about whether to bring a guy like Liam Fraser who has played in bigger matches for the national team and is coming off of a full season (but at a lower level) versus a more veteran David Wotherspoon who recently started his first match in 11 months and has only started for Canada against Cuba, Cayman Islands, Aruba and Panama. At risk of sounding too semantical, I don't think either are considered "locks".

I think you are rephrasing what I am saying and that shifts the argument.  I am not claiming that 200 minutes against the minnows is what makes him a lock (You forgot to mention the bigger teams he played against, which again shifts the argument). I am claiming how he has earned the trust of herdman and has been at every squad if hes available. Fraser has not been there every time. The level of trust is different. 

We also have to acknowledge the other options. Oso is not training yet for bahrain which further increases wotherspoons chances. I'd say Spoony had a good chance of making the squad if all of our CM options were available. Now with our CM in shambles, surely his chances have skyrocketed. 

I also am not sure which games you claim that fraser has played in that are bigger matches than wotherspoon. Wotherspoon started the most pivotal match of WCQ. I am not sure there is a more important match than that. Did Fraser start any games in WCQ?

Getting into the semantics, I think you do make a good point that he may not be a "lock". However, on a balance of probabilities, he has a strong chance of being on the plane. Using the "lock" argument though does seem a bit like fence sitting. Is kone a lock as a young player. MAK is out of form, is he a lock. Ugbo?  If you were to divide the players into:

1. Guaranteed at all costs.
2. Will be going to qatar
3. Has a chance but could go wither way
4. Unlikely
5. No chance

I think Spoony is #2. Technically not a lock but hes on the plane. 

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