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CPL Stadium Thread


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I do think there is the potential to reach a CFL-level TV deal. But, that's not quite as good as some may be thinking, as the next CFL deal may be at a lower level than today's. TSN needed cancon, the big three markets were included (still are) and the league was in some difficulty, though able to pull in pretty good ratings. TSN paid up. Next contract may not be so lucrative for the CFL (and this comes from a life-long TiCats fan).

Outside of the big three markets though, there is the very real prospect of the CPL becoming much more popular than MLS in Canada.

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9 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

I'd love to know what your timeline is on the CPL passing the NHL in TV money, the potential is very much not there. I don't think MLS will ever reach NFL, NBA, or MLB levels of TV money, but it will continue to increase significantly contract over contract

MLS don't get close to CFL levels of money or viewership in Canada, and that's with the three largest TV markets in the country. To say the CPL can pass the CFL in TV money in a "few years" is insane.

I don't have any timeline for such a thing. All I'm saying is the potential is there.

A "few years" is a subjective term that can be broad in scope.

 The vast majority of MLS matches on Canadian TV involve only one Canadian team so ratings aren't very high. 

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...especially when Fraser Valley, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, K/W, Hamilton and Halifax is shaping up to be the "original six" with Moncton being taken seriously as a contender to gatecrash the party early on. People on here were fed a line that CFL/NHL investors were going to launch a big budget league using CFL stadia. They haven't quite adjusted yet to the markets of 200,000 and above and multiple teams in major cities line that is being explained to them patiently by Paul Beirne on podcasts.

Nobody needs to adjust to anything. So far the only official investors in this league have been CFL investors. Paul has said the bare minimum a city needs is 200000, which doesn't exclude bigger communities. People here agree that big cities can and should support multiple teams. The budget that was rumoured way back when is still in the same range as being mentioned now. As for CFL tv ratings, as far as I'm aware, places like Hamilton, Winnipeg and Saskatchewan are apart of the CFL, areas that get great CFL attendance and draw well on TV. To add to that, KW and Halifax are bigger than either Regina and and Saskatoon. You haven't quite adjusted yet to the fact you've been a naysayer and wrong on quite literally everything you thought and wanted this league to be and are reeling to save face.

Edited by Macksam
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There are a lot of reasons for having a Canadian league over more MLS teams but market potential/economic reasons are certainly not one imo...it's like saying CFL could eclipse NFL someday...delusional.

Biggest benefits are control over on structure/rules of the league and hopefully avoiding MLS "style of soccer"

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49 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

There are a lot of reasons for having a Canadian league over more MLS teams but market potential/economic reasons are certainly not one imo...it's like saying CFL could eclipse NFL someday...delusional.

Biggest benefits are control over on structure/rules of the league and hopefully avoiding MLS "style of soccer"

Yes, avoiding MLS' version of suburban college boy soccer is going to be good.

If MLS finally scores that big money TV deal, it will leave the CPL in the dust no doubt.

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6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...especially when Fraser Valley, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, K/W, Hamilton and Halifax is shaping up to be the "original six" with Moncton being taken seriously as a contender to gatecrash the party early on. People on here were fed a line that CFL/NHL investors were going to launch a big budget league using CFL stadia. They haven't quite adjusted yet to the markets of 200,000 and above and multiple teams in major cities line that is being explained to them patiently by Paul Beirne on podcasts.

I have to admit I am slowly getting the feeling the original plan for a 'big budget' league looks like it is getting paired back a little bit. Still I think an average attendance of 5000 is not unreasonable for any of the markets listed above. As with all new leagues there will be franchises that struggle (well below 5000 fans) and those who draw well (some markets may draw 6000-7000 similar to the better teams in NASL and USL).

I think though if we are looking at markets of 200,000 the league would need to ensure they would be able to compete while drawing 5000 fans.

Then again we dont really know what the initial league will look like. Still I get the feeling that expectations may be dialed back a little. At least they have been for me.

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I've consistently heard that their break even is 5-6000. And additionally, the official communication from the league has been remarkably consistent right from Mont Vic's statements onward. I don't recall any original plan for a 'big budget' league. Even Rollins' rumour of operating costs around 3mil/year with a salary budget of 1.5mil/year or thereabouts is not big budget, but also realize that this was not official league communication. If there's been a change, perhaps it has been in the expectations on this forum and not so much in within the league itself.

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40 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

I've consistently heard that their break even is 5-6000. And additionally, the official communication from the league has been remarkably consistent right from Mont Vic's statements onward. I don't recall any original plan for a 'big budget' league. Even Rollins' rumour of operating costs around 3mil/year with a salary budget of 1.5mil/year or thereabouts is not big budget, but also realize that this was not official league communication. If there's been a change, perhaps it has been in the expectations on this forum and not so much in within the league itself.

Thats a good point maybe some people on the forum (including myself) maybe were thinking a little bit bigger then we should have been given the info available. 

I think 5000 is a reasonable break even point. It should be achievable in most markets if things go well. 

Incidentally I read an article in the National Post today about FC Edmonton. I guess their break even point in NASL is 9000 fans a game. Thats pretty lofty!

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35 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Thats a good point maybe some people on the forum (including myself) maybe were thinking a little bit bigger then we should have been given the info available. 

I think 5000 is a reasonable break even point. It should be achievable in most markets if things go well. 

Incidentally I read an article in the National Post today about FC Edmonton. I guess their break even point in NASL is 9000 fans a game. Thats pretty lofty!

I've certainly fallen victim to certain pieces of 'information' that turn out to be from less than accurate sources. The cycle seems to be 1. Poor interpretation of rumours or tweets gets reported on here. 2. People run with it accidentally or don't really check it out so it gains more legitimacy. 3. People forget that the original info wasn't exactly solid so the rumour 'graduates' to being accepted truth. 4. Something happens to disprove that 'truth' and suddenly everyone is up in arms.

I fully admit I've gotten caught up in that cycle despite trying very hard not to. My enthusiasm gets the best of me. Luckily I have some more solid info to go on now, so it takes less work to source check. 

I've heard the higher break-even for FCE as well (although I couldn't have recalled the number if asked). I've honestly thought for quite a while that they are better off in CanPL. Their front office has been doing a great job this year, attendance is up, the game day atmosphere is way better despite their poor results (I've been able to do a June 2016 to June 2017 comparison there ... night and day, including in the supporters section) and I think they would not lose any of this new momentum if they jumped leagues. It sounds like expenses would be down, and there's a very good chance of regional rivals and travelling support to help boost numbers. Although I doubt many on here would debate these points, so now I'm just rambling :)

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18 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

...I don't recall any original plan for a 'big budget' league...

This was the scenario that people were originally being told about on here when a domestic pro league started being discussed again post-Easton Report:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160203010656/http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/csa-cfl-and-nasl-to-launch-canadian-league-r4701

CSN has confirmed that the CSA is involved in negotiations with the CFL and NASL to launch an all-Canadian league. There could be as many as seven teams involved, all affiliated with local CFL teams and playing in CFL stadiums...The league would likely begin play in 2016, which the possibility of up to two teams coming in for 2015 (Hamilton and Calgary have been suggested)...

Discussions of this type were later confirmed publicly by an NASL source to have taken place, so there was never any question that this was all just a figment of Duane Rollins' imagination. Moving into speculation mode, the obvious motivation was to tie it into a solo 2026 World Cup hosting bid, because the USSF were planning to sit that one out at that point after what happened with Qatar and Russia. Subsequent to that Traffic Sports and Sepp Blatter fell from grace and the plan for a domestic pro league appears to have switched at some point to a standalone CPL with no cross-border links.

 

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard
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On 7/7/2017 at 3:08 PM, harrycoyster said:

The CSA would never stop a team from joining MLS. A fourth MLS team would be huge for Canada, though I don't think MLS has any interest. 

I think you are absolutely wrong about this - not because a 4th MLS team wouldn't be good for Canadian footy development, just that it would be much less good than a strong domestic league with ambitious long term goals.  CPL is not only about offering fans a chance to see local pro teams play, but also about establishing coast to coast pro development infrastructure for player development.    Both the scope and viability of the league over the long term would be very negatively impacted if the strongest team(s) was allowed to move to MLS as soon as it became a viable option. 

That kind of move would absolutely reinforce the feeder-league-to-MLS persona that CPL must avoid.  Plus, any movement of the financially strongest teams would threaten the longevity of the league if it is structured under a revenue sharing  model as is generally understood. 

If the CSA would be willing to allow a team's move from CPL to MLS the moment Garber comes sniffing around for new blood, this whole project is doomed.

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8 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

This was the scenario that people were originally being told about on here when a domestic pro league started being discussed again post-Easton Report:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160203010656/http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/csa-cfl-and-nasl-to-launch-canadian-league-r4701

CSN has confirmed that the CSA is involved in negotiations with the CFL and NASL to launch an all-Canadian league. There could be as many as seven teams involved, all affiliated with local CFL teams and playing in CFL stadiums...The league would likely begin play in 2016, which the possibility of up to two teams coming in for 2015 (Hamilton and Calgary have been suggested)...

Discussions of this type were later confirmed publicly by an NASL source to have taken place, so there was never any question that this was all just a figment of Duane Rollins' imagination. Moving into speculation mode, the obvious motivation was to tie it into a solo 2026 World Cup hosting bid, because the USSF were planning to sit that one out at that point after what happened with Qatar and Russia. Subsequent to that Traffic Sports and Sepp Blatter fell from grace and the plan for a domestic pro league appears to have switched at some point to a standalone CPL with no cross-border links.

 

You're not presenting a good argument here. The only thing so far that hasn't come true is the NASL link, which, according to a conversation the Cronenberg's had with Paul, was never ever apart of this plan Traffic Sports scandal or otherwise. Nothing ever switched one way or another and the proposed budgets that we've heard about have always been consistent. Saying teams will play in CFL stadiums never meant other non-CFL entities would be excluded.

Edited by Macksam
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6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

This was the scenario that people were originally being told about on here when a domestic pro league started being discussed again post-Easton Report:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160203010656/http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/csa-cfl-and-nasl-to-launch-canadian-league-r4701

CSN has confirmed that the CSA is involved in negotiations with the CFL and NASL to launch an all-Canadian league. There could be as many as seven teams involved, all affiliated with local CFL teams and playing in CFL stadiums...The league would likely begin play in 2016, which the possibility of up to two teams coming in for 2015 (Hamilton and Calgary have been suggested)...

Discussions of this type were later confirmed publicly by an NASL source to have taken place, so there was never any question that this was all just a figment of Duane Rollins' imagination. Moving into speculation mode, the obvious motivation was to tie it into a solo 2026 World Cup hosting bid, because the USSF were planning to sit that one out at that point after what happened with Qatar and Russia. Subsequent to that Traffic Sports and Sepp Blatter fell from grace and the plan for a domestic pro league appears to have switched at some point to a standalone CPL with no cross-border links.

 

There is nothing in that article that suggests that this is a plan for a big budget league. Plus as a rumour this died years ago. I'm wondering if the 'plan' or the 'negotiations'  were really nothing more than preliminary talks. 

 

And honestly, I took 'plan for a big budget league' to be a reference just to the CanPL plan. Perhaps that's not the way the comment was intended though.

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Not going to get into the semantics of "big budget", but the expectations that flowed on from that at the time back in 2014 and continued amongst many posters on here long after that revolved around a league in CFL sized rather than 200,000+ markets (Regina being the outlier on population size obviously) owned by CFL and NHL type investors using CFL stadia complete with a TSN contract as they were alleged back in 2014 to be interested in the project as a way to generate more CanCon. That in turn led to an expectation that a genuine rival to MLS was emerging complete with the elusive Toronto billionaire. It's really not that long ago (i.e. a few months) that we still had people posting stuff on here about MLSE cashing in where TFC and MLS is concerned and moving over to play in CPL instead. Now people have heard Paul Beirne spinning things more sensibly on podcasts with a significantly different vision of the way ahead (i.e. multiple teams in the outer 'burbs of the GTA and teams in smaller 200,000+ markets coast to coast) the rivalry with MLS stuff has pretty much faded away on here now.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard
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Again, nobody said anything about a genuine rival to MLS. If you look at that initial article, it stated that the three MLS cities would opt out of this. The goal was and still is to bring high level soccer to non-MLS cities because MLS was likely never to come to those places. Also, all of the non-CFL markets that have some serious weight behind them or have been referenced so far minus Moncton like KW, London, Halifax, Saskatoon, Quebec City and Windsor have at one time or another been rumoured for CFL expansion. You are getting really carried away with this 200,000+ requirement. That's all it is, a bare minimum for cities to apply. They are not going to let every city that has that population into the league. There will be a proper vetting process with owners, stadium requirements and the like. Relax. For someone that looks too much into things, I can't understand why you haven't logically come to the conclusion that with the eventual advent of promotion/relegation and the willingness of letting small markets in, the CPL will eventually move to an open market system where clubs that get MLS level of support will naturally rise to the top. I know why you haven't though, it doesn't fit your narrative.

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On 08/07/2017 at 2:43 AM, harrycoyster said:

Do you have any idea what a 4th Canadian team would do for development? MLS mandates academies, almost all spend millions a year on youth programs. The CPL probably won't have academies until at least 2020 and it will take at least a decade from the start of a CPL academy to reach current MLS quality output. And MLS academies are improving. Look at what Atlanta United and NYCFC have been able to do despite being fairly new teams. They have two of the best 25 academies in ALL of North America. Why? They've both spent millions uniting youth pyramids below them and building AAA facilities. The CPL won't have that power for a long time.

All of this is IF the CPL is successful. Remember we are in a bubble. It's entirely possible the CPL never grows out of 5k seating stadiums and doesn't ever have the money for million-dollar a year academies. If an MLS team was put in Calgary right now, the stability of a 4th million dollar academy would basically raise the number of USL/MLS level Canadian players developed between 2020-2030 by 15-20% on its own. The entire CPL may not do that, let alone an individual team. 

From it's inaugural season in 1997 until 2003 the Toronto Lynx helped launch the careers of Dwayne De Rosario, Paul Stalteri, Ali Gerba, and Atiba Hutchinson, among others. 3 of those guys have a legitimate case to be made for best Canadian player of all time. The Lynx managed to do that without an academy (to the best of my knowledge), by just casting a large net and giving lots of opportunities to Canadian players. The CPL can potentially be massive for player development even without well funded academies (obviously it would be even better if they do invest in free-to-play academies with high level coaching).

To use another Toronto example, what has the TFC academy produced so far? Doneil Henry, Jordan Hamilton, and Jay Chapman would be the best products so far. Hopefully they really take off, but at this point I don't see any miraculous drastic improvement from MLS.

My original comment was meant to say that having 6 CPL teams is better than having 1 MLS team, but I think I just made an argument that even a single CPL team could potentially be better for player development than a single MLS team, even with less money involved and at a lower level of play. Of course that would depend on how many minutes Canadian players are given in the CPL, if it's similar to MLS then there's probably not an argument for a single CPL team being better for development than a single MLS team.

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9 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think you are absolutely wrong about this - not because a 4th MLS team wouldn't be good for Canadian footy development, just that it would be much less good than a strong domestic league with ambitious long term goals.  CPL is not only about offering fans a chance to see local pro teams play, but also about establishing coast to coast pro development infrastructure for player development.    Both the scope and viability of the league over the long term would be very negatively impacted if the strongest team(s) was allowed to move to MLS as soon as it became a viable option. 

That kind of move would absolutely reinforce the feeder-league-to-MLS persona that CPL must avoid.  Plus, any movement of the financially strongest teams would threaten the longevity of the league if it is structured under a revenue sharing  model as is generally understood. 

If the CSA would be willing to allow a team's move from CPL to MLS the moment Garber comes sniffing around for new blood, this whole project is doomed.

I kinda of agree, I think the CSA would be very stubborn on any MLS expansion with the CanPL around. They want more control, more exposure and soccer flourishing under their association (as it should be for Canada) instead of the USSF. Any approval would need a major concession of revenue, quota requirements or some system of promotion and relegation to make it worth the CSA's while, and I don't think MLS would be willing to make those concessions.

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In this podcast from about 45:50 onwards:

http://vocalminority.ca/episode-195-170717-bennyballswasmycollegenickname-theonewiththecplprez-sickbeirnebro/

Paul Beirne reveals that only 4 of the 10 interested markets have a stadium in place. Given two are clearly Hamilton and Winnipeg that leaves plenty of room for speculation. Also says the template proposed is a need to sell 4500-5500 tickets at an average price of $25 (tax included).

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard
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22 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

In this podcast from about 45:50 onwards:

http://vocalminority.ca/episode-195-170717-bennyballswasmycollegenickname-theonewiththecplprez-sickbeirnebro/

Paul Beirne reveals that only 4 of the 10 interested markets have a stadium in place. Given two are clearly Hamilton and Winnipeg that leaves plenty of room for speculation. Also says the template proposed is a need to sell 4500-5500 tickets at an average price of $25 (tax included).

Seems like that average price has gone up from previously - I thought I heard $15-20 before.

I wonder if Halifax is considered as one of those four.

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14 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

...I wonder if Halifax is considered as one of those four.

Suspect it will, which probably leaves one of Fraser Valley, Saskatchewan and K/W as the fourth, and they have to consider sub-5000 budget scenarios in Halifax at this point given the amendments that were made to the stadium plan likely make 5000 plus seats impossible in the Wanderers Grounds. 4500 x 25 x 14 = $1.6 million, so I suspect the player salary budget would be under $1 million at the lower end of the range given no TV money seems to be anticipated in the financial planning and that would also put a major dent into what can be achieved on corporate sponsorships.

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4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Suspect it will, which probably leaves one of Fraser Valley, Saskatchewan and K/W as the fourth, and they have to consider sub-5000 budget scenarios in Halifax at this point given the amendments that were made to the stadium plan likely make 5000 plus seats impossible in the Wanderers Grounds. 4500 x 25 x 14 = $1.6 million, so I suspect the player salary budget would be under $1 million at the lower end of the range given no TV money seems to be anticipated in the financial planning and that would also put a major dent into what can be achieved on corporate sponsorships.

"Authorize the CAO, or his delegate, to negotiate and execute a rental agreement with Sports Entertainment Atlantic for the use of the Wanderers Grounds to host a professional soccer team and other events in a temporary stadium on the site with seating for up to 7000 spectators based on the Key Terms and Conditions outlined in Table 2 of the staff report dated June 7, 2017 and with such changes or conditions as may be deemed by the CAO to be in the best interest of the Municipality."
 
Interestingly, the Wanderers folks don't agree as I asked them about this. The City has said up to 7000 as seen above, and S|E|A has said 6000. It's conceivable that there will be some restrictions due to the amendments, but that is far from a given. And nowhere is '5000 or fewer' discussed.
 
Secondly, it's a real possibility that Paul Beirne's reference to '4 of 10 markets having a stadium in place' actually means that 4 of 10 markets have a stadium in place, as in the stadium exists right now. So that would be Hamilton, Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Ottawa. Potentially it could be Moncton, but they seem to be in such an exploratory phase right now, I doubt they are even in the 10. 
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Where Halifax is concerned, the amendments to the document you are quoting that were passed by the councillors appear to be drafted to effectively limit them to one side and one end. They needed two comparable stands on either side to reach 6000 in the plans that were submitted. I seriously doubt that Edmonton are part of the 10 given the owner there is so heavily invested in the NASL. With Ottawa it is still as clear as mud how they managed to get the CSA to agree to the league switch, but one possible explanation is that they now effectively have the FC Montreal franchise that had already been sanctioned by the CSA. Time will tell.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard
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55 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Where Halifax is concerned, the amendments to the document you are quoting that were passed by the councillors appear to be drafted to effectively limit them to one side and one end. 

This is not true. The amendments state that they must remove one side and one end during the off season. Considering one end will be a standing area, and considering the stands are designed for ease of setup, take down, transportation, and modification, this is not a particularly limiting amendment.

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