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CPL Stadium Thread


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7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Now that USL D3 has been raised, it is maybe worth pointing out that the market sizes they are looking at are broadly comparable with those that are on board with CPL or likely to be soon based on recent media reports and with Paul Beirne's repeatedly stated 200,000 or larger as the baseline for the population involved, so what they are doing or planning on doing on stadia is probably more relevant than Cincinnati, which has a metro size of over 2 million:

http://www.usld3.com/expansion

  • Strong local ownership
    • Primary owner with a net worth in excess of $10 million and 35% or greater share of the potential franchise
  • Soccer-specific stadia
    • Seating Capacity: 3,500
    • Pitch Size: 110 yards x 70 yards
  • Viable market size and support
    • Markets with a population between 150,000 to one million and a strong corporate and fan base for support

The weirdest thing about this to me is that they are only accepting bids east of the Mississippi, when the Eastern US is dominated by megacities. Akron, Ohio sits in the shadow of Cleveland, so why not put a team in Cleveland first? Statesboro, Georgia? Why not just put the team in Savannah? Obviously there are cities of 150,000 on the East Coast that don't sit in the shadow of a 500,000+ metro area, but the Western US has so many 150,000-500,000 cities that are the center on industry and culture for 100s of kilometers. Boise, Colorado Spring, Reno, Des Moines, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Spokane, Albuquerque, Tucson, El Paso, and Witchita would be a killer 10 team Western division, and that's not even counting the smaller Californian cities. 

They must be really afraid of travel costs. 

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1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

They must be really afraid of travel costs. 

Part of the drive for USL D3 is apparently that ownership groups that used to be comfortable at the USL level are beginning to be priced out of the league and were considering dropping to PDL. I imagine they'd want every cost control they could get. 

I imagine many teams struggle with an established minor league identity despite being in markets that could support more, and aren't able to replicate the success of new and rebranded franchises. Makes me a tad worried about any PDL group involved, I wonder of KW would consider rebranding ahead of a launch

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4 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I imagine many teams struggle with an established minor league identity despite being in markets that could support more, and aren't able to replicate the success of new and rebranded franchises.

Shows you that soccer still has a ways to go in North America, as minor league baseball and hockey draw regularly despite being clear minor leagues (let's not even bring up college football). Unfortunately it doesn't seem like there is a good predictor of success that is identifiable in NA cities for non-MLS soccer. On paper, FC Cincinnati shouldn't work and San Francisco Deltas should. Yet FCC is flourishing and the Deltas are bleeding money. It's the thing that scares me most about the CPL really. The league is going to look fairly close to the 2011 NASL at launch, which is more or less a failed league at this point. Have to hope the salary cap, better management and tighter grasp on being a D1 league makes the difference.

Has KW said they don't plan on rebranding? I feel that would be a big mistake. Minor league stigma aside K-W United FC is a real mouthful.

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On 01/07/2017 at 4:18 PM, Complete Homer said:

I don't think they've made any statements. I'm just assuming that no change is the default route

Barry has been pretty vocal about keeping the name. I would love to drop the FC and add a C to the KW (for Cambridge), so KWC United. This is coming from a Guelphite :-)

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On 7/3/2017 at 6:52 PM, Nathanael Martin said:

Barry has been pretty vocal about keeping the name. I would love to drop the FC and add a C to the KW (for Cambridge), so KWC United. This is coming from a Guelphite :-)

It's sad they want to keep the name so badly. I think KWC United would be decent too. Keep the colours, tweak the badge but keep it similar. 

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On 7/1/2017 at 0:14 PM, harrycoyster said:

Shows you that soccer still has a ways to go in North America, as minor league baseball and hockey draw regularly despite being clear minor leagues (let's not even bring up college football). Unfortunately it doesn't seem like there is a good predictor of success that is identifiable in NA cities for non-MLS soccer. On paper, FC Cincinnati shouldn't work and San Francisco Deltas should. Yet FCC is flourishing and the Deltas are bleeding money. It's the thing that scares me most about the CPL really. The league is going to look fairly close to the 2011 NASL at launch, which is more or less a failed league at this point. Have to hope the salary cap, better management and tighter grasp on being a D1 league makes the difference.

Has KW said they don't plan on rebranding? I feel that would be a big mistake. Minor league stigma aside K-W United FC is a real mouthful.

The Deltas are bleeding money for some very obvious reasons. Their launch was a disaster, their stadium is nothing special. They spat in the face of SFCFC (a community PDL team that has a lot of grassroots support) and their supporters when they launched. Honestly you could literally just do the opposite of everything they did and be far more sucessful.

The CPL can learn alot from sucessful launches as well as the failed ones. There's more reasons than this as to why the deltas are such a failure. Honestly they came across as a shit show from day one in the Bay Area market.

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On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎01 at 3:14 PM, harrycoyster said:

The league is going to look fairly close to the 2011 NASL at launch, which is more or less a failed league at this point. Have to hope the salary cap, better management and tighter grasp on being a D1 league makes the difference.

The CPL's support levels during launch will most likely chart across a spectrum of mediocre to good, all the way to phenomenal, with a city like Hamilton could very well surprise people to this league's potential and sell out most of their matches.

The NASL's main problem has been its inability to prevent the more successful franchises from jumping ship to MLS rather then staying and building those clubs up in its league. If a club in the CPL is ready to make a jump to a permanent, bigger stadium and be more competitive, that club will have to do that in the CPL as MLS will not be interested in poaching such an entity unless it's maybe Calgary. However, I imagine the CSA wouldn't sanction any such move.

18 hours ago, Alex D said:

At the very least KWU needs a new crest. It has to feel new and professional if they want to shed the "family day at the soccer park" stigma. 

A new crest is a given. Montreal Impact, Vancouver Whitecaps and Seattle Sounders all kept their names but rebranded when it came to logos/uniforms for their respective MLS launches so it would make sense for existing clubs making the jump to do the same.

Edited by Macksam
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27 minutes ago, Macksam said:

If a club in the CPL is ready to make a jump to a permanent, bigger stadium and be more competitive, that club will have to do that in the CPL as MLS will not be interested in poaching such an entity unless it's maybe Calgary. However, I imagine the CSA wouldn't sanction any such move.

The CSA would never stop a team from joining MLS. A fourth MLS team would be huge for Canada, though I don't think MLS has any interest. 

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1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

The CSA would never stop a team from joining MLS. A fourth MLS team would be huge for Canada, though I don't think MLS has any interest. 

That might depend on the state of the CPL in this case. If the league is relatively stable but only has 6 or 7 teams and has had the smaller markets fail in the past, then maybe they think allowing Calgary to go to MLS would torpedo CPL. If the league is relatively stable with over a dozen teams, then maybe they think the league can survive the hit of losing a team.

You might be right but I would guess there would be more factors at stake rather than just what is good for Calgary. But as you say, this is likely a moot point in the foreseeable future.

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9 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

The CSA would never stop a team from joining MLS. A fourth MLS team would be huge for Canada, though I don't think MLS has any interest. 

The CSA would absolutely stop a fourth Canadian team from entering MLS depending on the circumstances. The CPL will be huge for Canada and trump any awe factor MLS has over here.

Edited by Macksam
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2 hours ago, Macksam said:

The CSA would absolutely stop a fourth Canadian team from entering MLS depending on the circumstances. The CPL will be huge for Canada and trump any awe factor MLS has over here.

Do you have any idea what a 4th Canadian team would do for development? MLS mandates academies, almost all spend millions a year on youth programs. The CPL probably won't have academies until at least 2020 and it will take at least a decade from the start of a CPL academy to reach current MLS quality output. And MLS academies are improving. Look at what Atlanta United and NYCFC have been able to do despite being fairly new teams. They have two of the best 25 academies in ALL of North America. Why? They've both spent millions uniting youth pyramids below them and building AAA facilities. The CPL won't have that power for a long time.

All of this is IF the CPL is successful. Remember we are in a bubble. It's entirely possible the CPL never grows out of 5k seating stadiums and doesn't ever have the money for million-dollar a year academies. If an MLS team was put in Calgary right now, the stability of a 4th million dollar academy would basically raise the number of USL/MLS level Canadian players developed between 2020-2030 by 15-20% on its own. The entire CPL may not do that, let alone an individual team. 

Edited by harrycoyster
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12 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Do you have any idea what a 4th Canadian team would do for development? MLS mandates academies, almost all spend millions a year on youth programs. The CPL probably won't have academies until at least 2020 and it will take at least a decade from the start of a CPL academy to reach current MLS quality output. And MLS academies are improving. Look at what Atlanta United and NYCFC have been able to do despite being fairly new teams. They have two of the best 25 academies in ALL of North America. Why? They've both spent millions uniting youth pyramids below them and building AAA facilities. The CPL won't have that power for a long time.

All of this is IF the CPL is successful. Remember we are in a bubble. It's entirely possible the CPL never grows out of 5k seating stadiums and doesn't ever have the money for million-dollar a year academies. If an MLS team was put in Calgary right now, the stability of a 4th million dollar academy would basically raise the number of USL/MLS level Canadian players developed between 2020-2030 by 15-20% on its own. The entire CPL may not do that, let alone an individual team. 

I'm not denying what an MLS team brings to the table. Everything else you said is speculation. I rather us make decisions that positively impact the long term, creating a successful professional national league, than opt for short term benefits, getting one more MLS franchise, that would be far less beneficial in the grand scheme of things.

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Just now, Macksam said:

I'm not denying what an MLS team brings to the table. Everything else you said is speculation. I rather us make decisions that positively impact the long term, creating a successful professional national league, than opt for short term benefits, getting one more MLS franchise, that would be far less beneficial in the grand scheme of things.

Do you not agree that, even in the best case scenario, MLS is a better league than the CPL for the next 25 years? I don't see how sending a team from the CPL to MLS is a negative unless that team is the linchpin holding up the whole CPL...and in that case the CPL has bigger problems.

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7 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Do you not agree that, even in the best case scenario, MLS is a better league than the CPL for the next 25 years?

It all depends if that elusive big money TV deal comes through for them. Currently it doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon. If that trend continues, MLS will be league that one can easily catch up to in that time frame.

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20 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Do you have any idea what a 4th Canadian team would do for development? 

You remind me of that guy at the bar who doesn't understand when the "pretty girl" says no. How many time does someone needs to say NO to you before you stop texting (or drunk texting?), send love letters and daydream about them.

MLS said NO. Can we please move the F*** on and put all our energy into CPL??? 

Dude, if MLS wanted to massively expand in Canada and made us domestics but then CPL tried to compete, BBTB and I would be the best of friends but this is just about:

 

Edited by Ansem
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22 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You remind me of that guy at the bar who doesn't understand when the "pretty girl" says no. How many time does someone needs to say NO to you before you stop texting (or drunk texting?), send love letters and daydream about them.

MLS said NO. Can we please move the F*** on and put all our energy into CPL??? 

Dude, if MLS wanted to massively expand in Canada and made us domestics but then CPL tried to compete, BBTB and I would be the best of friends but this is just about:

 

I agree. I'm the one saying MLS wouldn't have any interest.

 

32 minutes ago, Macksam said:

It all depends if that elusive big money TV deal comes through for them. Currently it doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon. If that trend continues, MLS will be league that one can easily catch up to in that time frame.

MLS currently has a bigger TV deal than the CPL could even dream of.

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27 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I agree. I'm the one saying MLS wouldn't have any interest.

 

MLS currently has a bigger TV deal than the CPL could even dream of.

Not true. I'm not going to talk about who or what an individual dreams about. However, I will talk about TV contract potential. MLS' current TV deal is $120 million Canada per annum. The NHL's Canadian TV deal is about $450 million Canadian annually if I recall correctly. The Blue Jays, if they were independent of Rogers and actually had a monetized TV contract would be north of $200 million. When it comes to a Canadian sports property, it has the potential to be a lot higher than what MLS' current US TV deal is. Whether that will happen is entirely speculation, which I will engage in actually so here it is: the CPL will gain traction with its Canadian TV audience at a much faster rate than MLS currently has with its American TV audience.

Edited by Macksam
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8 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Not true. I'm not going to talk about who or what an individual dreams about. However, I will talk about TV contract potential. MLS' current TV deal is $120 million Canada per annum. The NHL's Canadian TV deal is about $450 million Canadian annually if I recall correctly. The Blue Jays, if they were independent of Rogers and actually had a monetized TV contract would be north of $200 million. When it comes to a Canadian sports property, it has the potential to be a lot higher than what MLS' current US TV deal is. Whether that will happen is entirely speculation, which I will engage in actually so here it is: the CPL will gain traction with its Canadian TV audience at a much faster rate than MLS currently has with its American TV audience.

Comparing the potential CPL TV deal to that of the NHL's in Canada. K.

Lets be slightly realistic here. 

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6 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Comparing the potential CPL TV deal to that of the NHL's in Canada. K.

Lets be slightly realistic here. 

I have to agree here. CFL is a much more realistic goal

Edited by Ansem
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2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Comparing the potential CPL TV deal to that of the NHL's in Canada. K.

Lets be slightly realistic here. 

I had a feeling you'd intentionally comprehend that incorrectly and grasp at the ill-conceived straw. I never gave a timeline to anything or said it would happen right away or at all. I just said the potential is there. Do you believe MLS can reach it's maximum US sports TV potential and sign a billion dollar plus TV contract like the NFL, NBA and MLB?

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I have to agree here. CFL is a much more realistic goal

Reaching the CFL's level could be a milestone a few years down the timeline. It isn't a ceiling though which was my point.

Edited by Macksam
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15 minutes ago, Macksam said:

I had a feeling you'd intentionally comprehend that incorrectly and grasp at the ill-conceived straw. I never gave a timeline to anything or said it would happen right away or at all. I just said the potential is there. Do you believe MLS can reach it's maximum US sports TV potential and sign a billion dollar plus TV contract like the NFL, NBA and MLB?

Reaching the CFL's level could be a milestone a few years down the timeline. It isn't a ceiling though which was my point.

I'd love to know what your timeline is on the CPL passing the NHL in TV money, the potential is very much not there. I don't think MLS will ever reach NFL, NBA, or MLB levels of TV money, but it will continue to increase significantly contract over contract

MLS don't get close to CFL levels of money or viewership in Canada, and that's with the three largest TV markets in the country. To say the CPL can pass the CFL in TV money in a "few years" is insane.

Edited by harrycoyster
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...especially when Fraser Valley, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, K/W, Hamilton and Halifax is shaping up to be the "original six" with Moncton being taken seriously as a contender to gatecrash the party early on. People on here were fed a line that CFL/NHL investors were going to launch a big budget league using CFL stadia. They haven't quite adjusted yet to the markets of 200,000 and above and multiple teams in major cities line that is being explained to them patiently by Paul Beirne on podcasts.

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