CPL Stadium Thread

[Ansem]

Just now, ReedOnTheGrand said:

The region payed just over 1/3 but also has the running costs(good portion will be paid by fares). 

It's not even the money at this point, they've spent all their "polical influence" as far as big construction goes right now. People are sick of downtown being in constant construction and 2 major projects on King will likely be really unpopular. 

Reminds me of the LRT debate in Hamilton where residents were against construction of the line. When they looked closer at the data, Millenials were heavily in favor of it and boomers massively against their "peace and quiet" being disturbed. Perhaps K-W whould have a similar result?

Sucks the region had to pay for 1/3 when Toronto and Mississauga got 100% paid for by Queen's Park.

Exciting time regarding CPL in K-W

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

28 minutes ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

There's a parking garage right beside this but it's not enough for the area. Also don't think the city would want 2 expensive projects beside each other when they just finished a billion dollar project.

Bear in mind that this is where Halifax plan to play:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6449675,-63.5845544,3a,75y,135.07h,90.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxxYNEHGuCmyQvzXGlzrLfQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DxxYNEHGuCmyQvzXGlzrLfQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D222.3966%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

so why not this nearby location for K-W if what Rollins has been stating is accurate?

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4582627,-80.5092871,375m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

[ReedOnTheGrand]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Reminds me of the LRT debate in Hamilton where residents were against construction of the line. When they looked closer at the data, Millenials were heavily in favor of it and boomers massively against their "peace and quiet" being disturbed. Perhaps K-W whould have a similar result?

Sucks the region had to pay for 1/3 when Toronto and Mississauga got 100% paid for by Queen's Park.

Exciting time regarding CPL in K-W

You got the demographics right. Businesses along that stretch also have a lawsuit against the region right now. I think the area needs some more private invesment before the city/region invests even more(I don't really want them to stop but it's reality).

However with the Google Canada headquarters just down the road now tech will probably have another resurgence. I'd love to have ownership but in the tech field as it would likely influence the stadium/team.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

11 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Bear in mind that this is where Halifax plan to play:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6449675,-63.5845544,3a,75y,135.07h,90.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxxYNEHGuCmyQvzXGlzrLfQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DxxYNEHGuCmyQvzXGlzrLfQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D222.3966%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

so why not this nearby location for K-W if what Rollins has been stating is accurate?

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4582627,-80.5092871,375m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Don't think the cemetery would be all that happy. Being right behind CTV would be nice for broadcasting. Wink wink 

Actually pretty sure that's not even enough space for a field. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by ReedOnTheGrand

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Would be tight, but looks to me like they could run one from the King Street side to the cemetery with plenty of space left for bleachers etc on either side.

[Kent]

13 minutes ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

Don't think the cemetery would be all that happy. Being right behind CTV would be nice for broadcasting. Wink wink 

Actually pretty sure that's not even enough space for a field. 

I was wondering that about both the locations being talked about. I did my best to figure that out with google maps. Looks like the Sun Life parking lot (locals can correct me, but I believe that is a Sun Life parking lot, not at all owned by the hospital. Perhaps part of it is a privately owned parking lot but I don't know) is about 190 to 200 meters square. The spot behind CTV seems to be about 90 to 110 meters square. If needed though, they might be able to eat into the parking to the south.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

2 minutes ago, Kent said:

I was wondering that about both the locations being talked about. I did my best to figure that out with google maps. Looks like the Sun Life parking lot (locals can correct me, but I believe that is a Sun Life parking lot, not at all owned by the hospital. Perhaps part of it is a privately owned parking lot but I don't know) is about 190 to 200 meters square. The spot behind CTV seems to be about 90 to 110 meters square. If needed though, they might be able to eat into the parking to the south.

Pretty confident it's owned by sunlife but I'm not 100%. The spot behind CTVis certainly not large enough.

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Bear in mind that this is where Halifax plan to play:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6449675,-63.5845544,3a,75y,135.07h,90.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxxYNEHGuCmyQvzXGlzrLfQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DxxYNEHGuCmyQvzXGlzrLfQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D222.3966%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

so why not this nearby location for K-W if what Rollins has been stating is accurate?

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4582627,-80.5092871,375m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

All the K-W sites look small to me.

It is not a question of cramming a stadium into a 150 m long parcel. One beside a hospital. Another beside a cemetery. 

For these smaller stadiums I think we need a minimum of 6-7 acres, a bigger stadium would normally take up 10-12.

[ReedOnTheGrand]

48 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

All the K-W sites look small to me.

It is not a question of cramming a stadium into a 150 m long parcel. One beside a hospital. Another beside a cemetery. 

For these smaller stadiums I think we need a minimum of 6-7 acres, a bigger stadium would normally take up 10-12.

The parking lot site is just short of 8 acres and would likely work spacewise. The cemetery/ctv one is just short of 3 acres, certainly a no go. 

[ReedOnTheGrand]

The white box is an average sized fifa regulation pitch, This area could have a stadium and a small parking garage. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

13 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

All the K-W sites look small to me...

How much are people going to spend initially on a stadium for a league that could conceivably whether we like it or not be one and done? In most cases (and all power to Joe Belen if he is really going all in but I suspect the S|E|A approach will be the norm for the six builder markets initially) it's probably going to be about finding something functional to test the waters with before making the big investment on something more permanent once there is a proven market for it.

You just about have the space needed with that beside the cemetery playing field to have either one or two sides of basic no frills pop-up seating for a 5000 capacity right next to the new transit line (you are also not too far there from Kitchener's Via/Go train station and more importantly given how sporadic train services are the Go/Greyhound/local bus terminal) in a location that lies between the traditional Kitchener and Waterloo downtown cores, which I suspect is the main reason why this King and Union intersection area is the preferred one.

Edited July 29, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[rob.notenboom]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

How much are people going to spend initially on a stadium for a league that could conceivably whether we like it or not be one and done? In most cases (and all power to Joe Belen if he is really going all in but I suspect the S|E|A approach will be the norm for the six builder markets initially) it's probably going to be about finding something functional to test the waters with before making the big investment on something more permanent once there is a proven market for it.

You just about have the space needed with that beside the cemetery playing field to have either one or two sides of basic no frills pop-up seating for a 5000 capacity right next to the new transit line (you are also not too far there from Kitchener's Via/Go train station and more importantly given how sporadic train services are the Go/Greyhound/local bus terminal) in a location that lies between the traditional Kitchener and Waterloo downtown cores, which I suspect is the main reason why this King and Union intersection area is the preferred one.

Speculation of course, but if I'm the one establishing a team I don't choose a piece of land that I might soon grow out of. If it is tight to fit a stadium that holds 6-8000 and within 5 years we need 10,000, moving to a new location would be very unpalatable. These stadiums are going to be quite mobile, but adding to one side to increase capacity has to be much preferable to tearing the whole stadium down and re-establishing it on a new site, not to mention all of the other issues involved with potential municipal government approval, new land-lease, etc, etc.

One thing that struck me when talking to individuals involved, was the tone used when describing capital expenditures on a stadium build project. My first reaction when I was told that was 'Holy crap, that's a lot of money!' The response was 'Actually that's quite a modest amount of money that we are quite willing to spend.' with comparison's to New Mosaic's price tag.

My sense is that the commitment level is high and they are quite willing to invest the money they need to succeed. Interestingly, others on here and elsewhere who have talked to other ownership groups seem to have gotten the same impression. This does not mean that things can't go south and the league collapses spectacularly. But the impression I get about their level of commitment, their understanding of the challenges, and their business and marketing acumen makes me much more optimistic than I was before meeting them.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, rob.notenboom said:

Speculation of course, but if I'm the one establishing a team I don't choose a piece of land that I might soon grow out of...

Not sure why that's necessarily even an issue, if it's a pop-up and viewed as a temporary solution with the eventual goal being a permanent SSS. Also think there is a tendency on here to get a bit carried away on what crowd levels are actually likely to be in year one for a league like this that will be much lower budget than MLS with a considerably lower profile on national media outlets. Getting to the point where you have over 5,000 paid (there were only ten NASL and USL teams managing that last season in terms of their announced numbers, which are often significantly inflated) and over $100k in revenue for every home game should always be viewed as a massive accomplishment in North America for pro soccer franchises that are not part of MLS and something you normally have to build towards over time. The recent San Francisco Deltas related posts provide a cautionary tale for what happens when owners assume it will be easy to do that and make a series of bad decisions prior to franchise launch.

[rob.notenboom]

9 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Not sure why that's necessarily even an issue ...

Right. Why secure one piece of land when you can secure two with twice the headache. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You seriously think that a K-W team that is currently struggling to break 500 in PDL is likely to have a problem any time soon because 5000 seats would be too small for them? This is pretty much the ideal location for a K-W team in public transport terms and being in the core urban environment that has been working well elsewhere. The problem with trying to secure land in ideal locations is that usually other people have got there first like Sun Life with their parking lot. I have no idea who owns that particular parcel of land beside the cemetery, but assuming it's a municipal park, something like the Halifax scenario is what could unfold, which means they don't have to buy the land.

Edited July 29, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[rob.notenboom]

6 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You seriously think that a K-W team that is currently struggling to break 500 in PDL is likely to have a problem any time soon because 5000 seats would be too small for them? This is pretty much the ideal location for a K-W team in public transport terms and being in the core urban environment that has been working well elsewhere. The problem with trying to secure land in ideal locations is that usually other people have got there first like Sun Life with their parking lot. I have no idea who owns that particular parcel of land, but assuming it's a municipal park, something like the Halifax scenario is what could unfold, which means they don't have to buy the land.

No. I'm saying that an ownership group who thinks they have a chance at expanding, even if it's not for 5 or 10 years, at least considers the size of the property as a factor in their decision. 

[ReedOnTheGrand]

7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

How much are people going to spend initially on a stadium for a league that could conceivably whether we like it or not be one and done? In most cases (and all power to Joe Belen if he is really going all in but I suspect the S|E|A approach will be the norm for the six builder markets initially) it's probably going to be about finding something functional to test the waters with before making the big investment on something more permanent once there is a proven market for it.

You just about have the space needed with that beside the cemetery playing field to have either one or two sides of basic no frills pop-up seating for a 5000 capacity right next to the new transit line (you are also not too far there from Kitchener's Via/Go train station and more importantly given how sporadic train services are the Go/Greyhound/local bus terminal) in a location that lies between the traditional Kitchener and Waterloo downtown cores, which I suspect is the main reason why this King and Union intersection area is the preferred one.

The problem with pop-ups is that they don't last long, so if the team is successful and build a modular or permanent stadium after that money goes down the drain(not really, you made revenue off it but still). In the case of KW the area no longer has a municipal/regional stadium and are looking to make the downtown area nice to visit. A pop-up that cost 1/3 as much wouldn't really be worth it in the end if it's downtown, building something that fits the cities new vision will be important. BTW that little park wouldn't have enough space.That's a fifa pitch, once you give space for linesmen and tactical area/benches you have maybe 3 or so metres on each side. 

[ReedOnTheGrand]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You seriously think that a K-W team that is currently struggling to break 500 in PDL is likely to have a problem any time soon because 5000 seats would be too small for them? This is pretty much the ideal location for a K-W team in public transport terms and being in the core urban environment that has been working well elsewhere. The problem with trying to secure land in ideal locations is that usually other people have got there first like Sun Life with their parking lot. I have no idea who owns that particular parcel of land beside the cemetery, but assuming it's a municipal park, something like the Halifax scenario is what could unfold, which means they don't have to buy the land.

It's tough to compare an ameteur PDL team that plays over football lines, with no advertising for 7 games(at home) a year to what could be the area's only pro team. Also I'm pretty confident that's the high school's field.  

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...which presumably means it might be possible to do a deal that keeps the owner happy to make the land available, if it's a public rather than a private body? Just to explain where I am coming from, I used to go to soccer stadiums like this in a country where there tends to be a lot less space available than is normally the case in Canada to build things:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.93901,-3.2325651,289m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9389978,-3.2324266,3a,75y,311.34h,91.69t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s-9FWBzq-s9xc%2FVyzDevrB1QI%2FAAAAAAABDCw%2F0RFNUQsNMXgzpSjHSVO9jsARMHdXjjrXACJkC!2e4!3e11!6s%2F%2Flh4.googleusercontent.com%2F-9FWBzq-s9xc%2FVyzDevrB1QI%2FAAAAAAABDCw%2F0RFNUQsNMXgzpSjHSVO9jsARMHdXjjrXACJkC%2Fw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya98.4567-ro-0-fo100%2F!7i7168!8i3584?hl=en

Tynecastle is a prime example of a reasonably large (17,500 seats) stadium in a very tight space where every square metre that is available is used to full advantage, so a parcel of land like the one in K-W doesn't look like mission impossible to me, especially when you bear in mind that you don't actually need to put seats on all four sides (even just one side nearest King Street might work) to be able to get 5000 or so in there, since up to three sides of the playing surface could be up right against high fences. The main problem I see would be access by spectators, so a lot would probably depend on the attitude of whoever owns the two adjacent parking lots.

Edited July 29, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Complete Homer]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You seriously think that a K-W team that is currently struggling to break 500 in PDL is likely to have a problem any time soon because 5000 seats would be too small for them? 

Was the Ottaw Fury not averaging ~500 as a PDL team? Now averaging ~5500 just a few years into its professional history. KW isn't an identical market to Ottawa, but not completely unreasonable to think that they could outgrow 5000 well before the of a stadium's lifecycle 

[ReedOnTheGrand]

21 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...which presumably means it might be possible to do a deal that keeps the owner happy to make the land available, if it's a public rather than a private body? Just to explain where I am coming from, I used to go to soccer stadiums like this in a country where there tends to be a lot less space available than is normally the case in Canada to build things:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.93901,-3.2325651,289m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9389978,-3.2324266,3a,75y,311.34h,91.69t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s-9FWBzq-s9xc%2FVyzDevrB1QI%2FAAAAAAABDCw%2F0RFNUQsNMXgzpSjHSVO9jsARMHdXjjrXACJkC!2e4!3e11!6s%2F%2Flh4.googleusercontent.com%2F-9FWBzq-s9xc%2FVyzDevrB1QI%2FAAAAAAABDCw%2F0RFNUQsNMXgzpSjHSVO9jsARMHdXjjrXACJkC%2Fw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya98.4567-ro-0-fo100%2F!7i7168!8i3584?hl=en

Tynecastle is a prime example of a reasonably large (17,500 seats) stadium in a very tight space where every square metre that is available is used to full advantage, so a parcel of land like the one in K-W doesn't look like mission impossible to me, especially when you bear in mind that you don't actually need to put seats on all four sides (even just one side nearest King Street might work) to be able to get 5000 or so in there, since up to three sides of the playing surface could be up right against high fences. The main problem I see would be access by spectators, so a lot would probably depend on the attitude of whoever owns the two adjacent parking lots.

Pushing the plot behind CTV to the edge it's 2/3 the size of just the stadium you posted. The plot can barely fit a pitch, let alone the infrastructure to run a pro team. If you pushed the pitch towards the cemetery you would have about ~20 metres for the sideline and sole stand. The stand at univesity hold 6000 people and is about 30m x 98m, you could fit max a stand 2/3 that size at the CTV plot, so maxing at 4000 capacity if it's bleacher style, little less than that seat wise.

That puts the plot at a one sided stadium with a capacity of <4000 and no room for growth.   

[shamrock]

10 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Was the Ottaw Fury not averaging ~500 as a PDL team? Now averaging ~5500 just a few years into its professional history. KW isn't an identical market to Ottawa, but not completely unreasonable to think that they could outgrow 5000 well before the of a stadium's lifecycle 

But they have a fantastic stadium that guarantees you a prime experience. I'm willing to bet what (if ever) KW plans to built won't come anywhere near TD place.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The other problem with using Ottawa's announced numbers as being indicative of anything is that they are giving away free tickets through local youth clubs and other accompanying children and adults get in on a significant discount as part of a long term marketing strategy.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/Articles2015/OttawaFuryreachouttoyouthwithfreetickets.aspx

http://furyfanatics.com/fanatic-faqs/#1491846783596-c6860f16-06a2

FC Edmonton provides a better yardstick for what happens when people have to actually pay to get in and freebies are not being consistently used to generate inflated announced numbers. Being limited to a 5000 capacity has yet to be an issue there and it has taken many years for them to build to the point that crowds are in the 3500-4000 range.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.557171,-113.4783296,306m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

 

[Complete Homer]

5 hours ago, shamrock said:

But they have a fantastic stadium that guarantees you a prime experience. I'm willing to bet what (if ever) KW plans to built won't come anywhere near TD place.

Fair, but it would still seem pretty short sited to build something with no chance to expand, thats a big part of the benefit for the modular stadiums 

 

[Complete Homer]

20 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The other problem with using Ottawa's announced numbers as being indicative of anything is that they are giving away free tickets through local youth clubs and other accompanying children and adults get in on a significant discount as part of a long term marketing strategy.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/Articles2015/OttawaFuryreachouttoyouthwithfreetickets.aspx

http://furyfanatics.com/fanatic-faqs/#1491846783596-c6860f16-06a2

FC Edmonton provides a better yardstick for what happens when people have to actually pay to get in and freebies are not being consistently used to generate inflated announced numbers. Being limited to a 5000 capacity has yet to be an issue there and it has taken many years for them to build to the point that crowds are in the 3500-4000 range.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.557171,-113.4783296,306m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

 

This point doesn't hold for stadium capacity. Almost all teams have some sort of steep discount or occasional giveaways for youth players - it's how you draw in fans for life. You should be building capacity with those in mind

And again, I know this point has been used for over a year, but we've never had any evidence that those tickets grossly warp the attendance numbers. I really doubt there's thousands of youth players at each game