CPL Stadium Thread

[ironcub14]

9 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

They are actually different things. Halifax is building a pop-up. Sask is building modular. 

Could you tell me how so exactly? Currently, I have both as stadiums that don't use concrete, and the structure can be left there permanently if needed.

[Rheo]

5 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

I mean technically wasn't BMO field "modular"?..

Don't use my question as a basis of fact lol.  That was my guess based on what I've read so I could be totally off base

[rob.notenboom]

28 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

Could you tell me how so exactly? Currently, I have both as stadiums that don't use concrete, and the structure can be left there permanently if needed.

I will try to recall how it was explained to me with the disclaimer that one should not 100% trust all of the details (this is me assembling details of several conversations over several months). 

Pop-Up is not meant to be permanent. It is meant to serve a purpose over a certain number of years. It uses lighter materials (lots of erector-set looking construction) and, although it can be dressed up, has a very temporary look to it. Empire Field is a perfect example. It was erected while BC Place was being built, then disassembled once it was unnecessary. I was lucky enough to be at it once, and it looked and felt really good for a pop-up stadium. Tarps over the pole support structure gave it a more classy feel. 

Modular is meant to be much more permanent with lifespan of 25 years plus. Heavier materials like beam supports rather than pole structures. More solid anchorage. Take a look at Brita Stadium in Weisbaden and compare to Empire. It looks permanent. 

Both treatments are relatively inexpensive and changeable though, so they definitely share some characteristics. During my discussions with the SK ownership, they have been very clear that they are looking at modular and not pop-up and hence I have been trying to be accurate with my use of both terms. 

[ironcub14]

4 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

I will try to recall how it was explained to me with the disclaimer that one should not 100% trust all of the details (this is me assembling details of several conversations over several months). 

Pop-Up is not meant to be permanent. It is meant to serve a purpose over a certain number of years. It uses lighter materials (lots of erector-set looking construction) and, although it can be dressed up, has a very temporary look to it. Empire Field is a perfect example. It was erected while BC Place was being built, then disassembled once it was unnecessary. I was lucky enough to be at it once, and it looked and felt really good for a pop-up stadium. Tarps over the pole support structure gave it a more classy feel. 

Modular is meant to be much more permanent with lifespan of 25 years plus. Heavier materials like beam supports rather than pole structures. More solid anchorage. Take a look at Brita Stadium in Weisbaden and compare to Empire. It looks permanent. 

Both treatments are relatively inexpensive and changeable though, so they definitely share some characteristics. During my discussions with the SK ownership, they have been very clear that they are looking at modular and not pop-up and hence I have been trying to be accurate with my use of both terms. 

Perfect, thanks for this Rob! Will definitely refer to this post in the future as needed, really good info here.

[Ansem]

Interesting bits of history regarding Varsity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field

Varsity (University of Toronto)

The Argonauts, CSA and MLSE agreed to partner to build a new 25,000-seat, $80 million Varsity Stadium at the University of Toronto.^[11][12][13] Aside from the committed government funding, $15 million was to come from the UofT, which would own the stadium, and a $30 million loan would be taken out by the University with the annual $2.1 million financing charges paid by the Argos.^[11] However, MLSE backed out of the stadium due to a lack of financial return, and the deal ultimately fell through in 2004 when the University's new President withdrew his support after its cost rose over $100 million.^{[12][13][14][15]}

• Seems that a University of Toronto stadium on their grounds (Not current Varsity and yes, they do have a lot of land) is doable as long as the university is not on the hook for too much money and aren't too greedy with rent as shown below...

York University (Soccer and football)

Later that year, the Argos and CSA announced plans to build a 25,000-seat, $70 million stadium at York University, which would contribute the land and $15 million, with the Argos adding $20 million to the government funding.^[12][16] MLSE was not involved in this project.^[17] However, the Argos pulled out of the stadium after signing a new 15-year lease at Rogers Centre with significantly reduced rent

• Funny to read that the Argonauts had lower rent at Rogers Centre than York University. Greed!

Exhibition Grounds

In 2005, the stadium site was moved back to Exhibition Place, on the location of the demolished Exhibition Stadium and then-existing Sports Hall of Fame building, in a partnership between MLSE and the CSA. With a total costs of $62.9 million (all figures are in Canadian dollars) to build the stadium^[19] ($72.8 million including the land), financial contributions came from multiple sources.^[20] The Canadian Federal Government contributed $27 million, the Government of Ontario added an additional $8 million, and the City of Toronto paid $9.8 million and contributed the land for the project (valued at $10 million),^[21][22] while retaining ownership of the stadium.^[22]

Seems the CSA did pitch in money for BMO. Are they likely to help CPL club with infrastructure costs? Does a FIFA "start a league fund program" exists?

• CSA ain't that poor after all, how about a hand for CPL stadiums? Lol.
• City of Toronto owns the stadium, not MLSE

Management rights at BMO

As manager of the stadium, MLSE gets any profit turned by the stadium, and is responsible for any losses.^[58] MLSE's management and naming rights agreement for the stadium, which was set to expire in 2027, were extended by 10 years under the proposal.^[50][58]

• MLSE retains management rights until 2037. In theory, before renewal talks, any party can come forward and bid for those same rights and/or challenge the city from allowing MLSE from banning them from using the stadium for their soccer teams...say a CPL Toronto owner who wants to move on the Lakeshore.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ansem

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Isn't it time you finally let go of this rival to MLS angle? When Paul Beirne is talking about a league that can work in markets like Kelowna and Penticton it should be clear that the business plan revolves around something very different from that.

[Rheo]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Isn't it time you finally let go of this rival to MLS angle? When Paul Beirne is talking about a league that can work in markets like Kelowna and Penticton it should be clear that the business plan revolves around something very different from that.

Agreed.  If the CPL is ever going to be a rival to MLS it will be very far in the future.  They're being smart and starting small and seeing where the league goes from there.

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, ironcub14 said:

Perfect, thanks for this Rob! Will definitely refer to this post in the future as needed, really good info here.

My pleasure, but like I said, some of my details might be fuzzy. ?

[rob.notenboom]

Managed to find some Brita stadium construction pics. Seems like a mostly pole interior skeleton with reinforcing beams around the outside plus beams up the back and supporting the roof protecting the seats. That actually doesn't seem as unlike Empire as I thought it would. Metal cladding surrounds the skeleton though so you can't see it, unlike Empire's tarp cladding. 

Man would I love to have covered seats in a new build and filled-in corners. 

[Complete Homer]

36 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Agreed.  If the CPL is ever going to be a rival to MLS it will be very far in the future.  They're being smart and starting small and seeing where the league goes from there.

I wouldn't call building 20 million dollar soccer specific stadiums starting out small 

They seem to be going the middle path between Ansem's vision of challenging the MLS and BBTB's vision of a minor league that doesn't attempt to be tier 1 

To me, I think they have really hit the nail on the head. They seem to recognize that no one will treat CPL as major league if they don't operate the team as such, but aren't overextending out of the gate

Edited July 25, 2017 by Complete Homer

[harrycoyster]

7 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I wouldn't call building 20 million dollar soccer specific stadiums starting out small 

I mean, it is compared to the $300 million MLS stadiums that are being built for brand new teams. It's silly to say that a $20 million dollar stadium will feel "major league" in North America, but I think you are right in that it would be disastrous to overstretch. It's a great launching point.

[Rheo]

In the grand scheme of things they are starting small and reasonable.  They have no ambition to challenge MLS anytime soon.  They've said that.  

If people want to get their maple hardwoods up believing that in a handful of years this league is going to bury MLS in Canada, with the three teams running away from there screaming to join the CPL then good for them.  I will continue to live in the real world and enjoy both leagues for what they are and do for the game in the country.

[Ansem]

56 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Isn't it time you finally let go of this rival to MLS angle? When Paul Beirne is talking about a league that can work in markets like Kelowna and Penticton it should be clear that the business plan revolves around something very different from that.

What rivalry? The stadium is the property of the CIty of Toronto. It would be that much easier for everyone if a CPL Toronto team could also use it. It's done elsewhere around the world

[Complete Homer]

6 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I mean, it is compared to the $300 million MLS stadiums that are being built for brand new teams. It's silly to say that a $20 million dollar stadium will feel "major league" in North America, but I think you are right in that it would be disastrous to overstretch. It's a great launching point.

I mean, it's the same order of magnitude for early MLS soccer specific stadiums. Maybe "legitimate" is a better way to put it than "major league" 

I guess it's subjective. Personally, I think filling a 10k stadium would feel more legitimate than getting 20k as a secondary tenet in a 60k stadium

Edited July 25, 2017 by Complete Homer

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

 

18 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I wouldn't call building 20 million dollar soccer specific stadiums starting out small 

I mean, it is compared to the $300 million MLS stadiums that are being built for brand new teams. It's silly to say that a $20 million dollar stadium will feel "major league" in North America, but I think you are right in that it would be disastrous to overstretch. It's a great launching point.

 

It's a smart approach for me. Might as well build modular stadiums that can act and look as a permanent stadium. Spend that $280M you saved on infrastructure on top personnel, office staff, trainer staff, marketing and your players.

Being smart with your resources is better than throwing money left and right.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Rheo said:

In the grand scheme of things they are starting small and reasonable.  They have no ambition to challenge MLS anytime soon.  They've said that.  

If people want to get their maple hardwoods up believing that in a handful of years this league is going to bury MLS in Canada, with the three teams running away from there screaming to join the CPL then good for them.  I will continue to live in the real world and enjoy both leagues for what they are and do for the game in the country.

I'm not even sure they will acknowledge MLS existence except during the V Cup. That's the right approach. Just mind your business and carry on

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

It's a smart approach for me. Might as well build modular stadiums that can act and look as a permanent stadium. Spend that $280M you saved on infrastructure on top personnel, office staff, trainer staff, marketing and your players.

Being smart with your resources is better than throwing money left and right.

Being smart with your resources is good, having "fuck you money" is better! Here's to hoping the league becomes stable enough to gain the interest from the multibillionaires like Arthur Blank (ATL United) and Henry Nguyen (LAFC) that throw $70 million at training facilities and $300 million at stadiums for teams that don't exist yet.  

[Complete Homer]

8 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Being smart with your resources is good, having "fuck you money" is better! Here's to hoping the league becomes stable enough to gain the interest from the multibillionaires like Arthur Blank (ATL United) and Henry Nguyen (LAFC) that throw $70 million at training facilities and $300 million at stadiums for teams that don't exist yet.  

As long as it's not, "drag you all down with my ego" money (looks at Silva) 

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

As long as it's not, "drag you all down with my ego" money (looks at Silva) 

I asked Paul Tenorio, a MLS reporter, if Silva spends all day screaming at the Orlando City staff or if it just seems like he does. He answered "no comment".  lol

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

13 hours ago, Ansem said:

What rivalry? The stadium is the property of the CIty of Toronto. It would be that much easier for everyone if a CPL Toronto team could also use it...

The narrative that was spun on here and on podcasts about CPL was dominated to a significant extent by people in and around the GTA that wanted an alternative to TFC to emerge either out of a fiercely nationalist mentality due to the lack of Canadian content in TFC's first eleven, or possibly to be cyncical about it a chip on the shoulder over not being employed by TFC after they sent their CV into MLSE, or whatever there were no doubt many other motivations on this including Hamilton deserving a team of its own which is understandable enough, but what is now unfolding does not appear to be about trying to rival and displace MLS as the flagship for soccer in Canada in the three major media markets but about finding a way in the first instance to cater to the smaller markets that MLS is unlikely to ever be interested in and in the process generate more jobs for Canadian soccer players. The moratorium that the CSA imposed around the beginning of the decade has now provided plenty of time for pent up demand to build for that given those smaller markets have at time been actively blocked from entering D2 and D3 USSF sanctioned leagues and at times even PDL, so it's definitely well past time for that particular issue to finally reach resolution.

If you go onto Barry MacLean's twitter being one of the investors that is interested in launching a CPL team doesn't seem to stop him from being interested in what's happening with TFC at the moment:

https://twitter.com/BarryMacLean7

because he probably realizes that all the boats that are in the water will rise with the tide if pro soccer gains greater popularity due to the exploits of the three Canadian MLS teams in the years ahead. S|E|A in Halifax retweeted this a couple of weeks ago that to me sums up the better way to look at the role of MLS in Canada at the moment:

 

[Rheo]

Well said BBTB.  You can see it happening already here on the Women's side and Sinclair lead Bronze.  Every game the number of young girls there watching and cheering is so great.  Hell every game they mention how she's playing now with people who were fans.  It's not going to be a quick but it will have an effect in the not so distant future.

[Complete Homer]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The narrative that was spun on here and on podcasts about CPL was dominated to a significant extent by people in and around the GTA that wanted an alternative to TFC to emerge either out of a fiercely nationalist mentality due to the lack of Canadian content in TFC's first eleven, or possibly to be cyncical about it a chip on the shoulder over not being employed by TFC after they sent their CV into MLSE, or whatever there were no doubt many other motivations 

. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Complete Homer

[ironcub14]

36 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

As a host of one of the few CPL podcasts, I think it is necessary to respond to this. Preemptive apologies for the rant. 

We've repeated, ad nauseam, that we are MLS die-hards, I don't think expressing frustration at certain roster decisions and hoping that the creation of CPL puts pressure at TFC to make different decisions is out of line at all. 

As for ulterior motives, come on dude. We are just fans who saw a gap in coverage and wanted to try our best to to help CPL coverage leave the Voyageurs bubble, with zero interest in a true journalistic career or being hired by the league in any capacity. I'm proud that we've brought thousands of readers and at least a hundred regular listeners into the conversation. The only way I think we've influenced the narrative is putting to rest the idea that CPL was nothing but hearsay and promoted positivity about the project. That's not a bad thing. 

Last, I don't really appreciate comments about "fierce nationalism". I don't think anything I've said has ever said or done anything that come close to the fascist connotation you are implying. I have directly provided medical care to refugees and newcomers to our country who had their funding cut, I've stood with colleagues to advocat for them and protest on their behalf. Hell, I played soccer with them. Don't lump me in with skin heads just because you don't like me. 

I am proud of Canada. Do I want to see Canada have something for its own and see communities rally around a game of love, instead of defaulting to using the USA as a crutch yet again? Yeah. Does that make me nationalistic? Not at all. 

Sorry if that's a rant, but I think frustration is warranted when someone tries to cast something you've spent far too many hours on for no other reason than to contribute altruisticly as a response to getting a CV rejected (which clearly did not happen) or having an indwelling belief in national supremacy 

Homer, you're overreacting my man.

Hey my fellow USec BBTB, count me in as a TFC supporter in Toronto commenting in this forum hoping for a CPL team in Toronto because and only because I think a league in Canada is something we Canadian soccer fans should all be hoping and working for, partly due to the moratoriums posed by the CSA all these years on USL expansion.

I think there are many TFC supporters in Toronto wishing and hoping for the same thing, and are driven purely by a passion for Canadian soccer, and aren't that bothered by the lack of Canadian content in the TFC XI or by fierce nationalism or by some other out-there motive at all.

[Complete Homer]

7 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

Homer, you're overreacting my man.

Hey my fellow USec BBTB, count me in as a TFC supporter in Toronto commenting in this forum hoping for a CPL team in Toronto because and only because I think a league in Canada is something we Canadian soccer fans should all be hoping and working for, partly due to the moratoriums posed by the CSA all these years on USL expansion.

I think there are many TFC supporters in Toronto wishing and hoping for the same thing, and are driven purely by a passion for Canadian soccer, and aren't that bothered by the lack of Canadian content in the TFC XI or by fierce nationalism or by some other out-there motive at all.

I've taken it down, but in context of the year long discussion on here, I think it's fair to take offense to BBTB's post. His habit to insert jabs has become expected, but to say we are writing or podcasting to spin a narrative and angle for a job when all we've done is an attempt to help the community is just spiteful

[Ansem]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The narrative that was spun on here and on podcasts about CPL was dominated to a significant extent by people in and around the GTA that wanted an alternative to TFC to emerge either out of a fiercely nationalist mentality due to the lack of Canadian content in TFC's first eleven, or possibly to be cyncical about it a chip on the shoulder over not being employed by TFC after they sent their CV into MLSE, or whatever there were no doubt many other motivations on this including Hamilton deserving a team of its own which is understandable enough, but what is now unfolding does not appear to be about trying to rival and displace MLS as the flagship for soccer in Canada in the three major media markets but about finding a way in the first instance to cater to the smaller markets that MLS is unlikely to ever be interested in and in the process generate more jobs for Canadian soccer players. The moratorium that the CSA imposed around the beginning of the decade has now provided plenty of time for pent up demand to build for that given those smaller markets have at time been actively blocked from entering D2 and D3 USSF sanctioned leagues and at times even PDL, so it's definitely well past time for that particular issue to finally reach resolution.

If you go onto Barry MacLean's twitter being one of the investors that is interested in launching a CPL team doesn't seem to stop him from being interested in what's happening with TFC at the moment:

https://twitter.com/BarryMacLean7

because he probably realizes that all the boats that are in the water will rise with the tide if pro soccer gains greater popularity due to the exploits of the three Canadian MLS teams in the years ahead. S|E|A in Halifax retweeted this a couple of weeks ago that to me sums up the better way to look at the role of MLS in Canada at the moment:

 

I appreciate the insight and analysis, but my argument was straight to the point and specific.

MLSE does not own BMO Field and their rights are up in 2037. If you`re the city of Toronto, why would you pass at a chance to collect rent from an extra tenant and increase your rent revenue? If in the future, the stadium needs expanding, upgrades or repair, why would you pass at the chance to add another party to pitch in?

This is what could happen by 2037 at municipal level

• Status Quo: No one challenges the current contract and the city doesn't pull a Hamilton and does not look for more tenants to increase their revenues
• MLSE pays an insane amount of money to keep the current deal
• City amends the deal with MLSE to add another tenants
• City finds a new manager who will most likely look if 3 tenants is possible (assuming the Argos aren`t force to find a smaller venue by then)

It would be in CPL Toronto teams best interests to try to gain access to BMO Field. It`s a no brainer really. So I get you feel your team is being attacked but I'm thinking that it would be best for all parties to share the stadium. Like it or not, MLSE does not own the stadium and I see no incentive for the city to sell it.

Any scenarios is a win for the city.

*Same for the province of British Columbia who owns BC Place.

**Stade Saputo is owned by Saputo Inc

Edited July 26, 2017 by Ansem