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Toronto CPL


madmonte

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21 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

As I said above, I'd much prefer an independent owner pop up for Toronto.

But just to answer your question, it'd be to support CPL, and Canadian soccer by extension. And more Canadian players. Whether the team was branded as an offshoot of TFC, or with a completely another brand.

This is all a theoretical exercise on a forum. But if MLSE came out tomorrow saying they're owning a CPL team in Toronto, why would a CPL supporter in Toronto NOT support that team, if the survival of this league and the success of Canadian soccer is the ultimate objective?

Fact: The team would be marketed like shit and would not draw. It would look awful on TV and to advertisers and hurt other teams.

23 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

Is support of MLS and CPL mutually exclusive? Is MLSE compelled to use CPL as a vehicle to undermine the league, rather than perhaps coming around to it as another possible revenue-making entity? Perhaps so, perhaps not.

It's publicly tried to derail the league already, so the former is far more likely

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It's not that people would be put off by MLSE, I just don't understand why someone would prefer to support them exclusively over TFC because they will always play second fiddle when it comes to ownership and resources.  Are there people who only support the Marlies and not the Leafs?   A CPL team in Toronto wouldn't survive being everyone's second team after TFC. They'll need to build their own independent culture to survive.

Edited by Greatest Cockney Rip Off
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10 minutes ago, matty said:

Gonna say this: Anyone who thinks MLSE would not treat a CPL team like a D-team, whether it was branded that way or not, needs to take a long pause and think about it?

MLSE has publically tried to derail the CPL and chases the big bucks which they would not get out of CPL.

When you say treat it like a B-team, do you mean a roster filled with young cheap Canadians that would conform to whatever roster guidelines the CPL owners agree to as a whole?

I'm going off memory here, feel free to quote an article where Manning comes out directly trying to derail CPL as a whole. I know he's said a ton of shit about coming out against CPL in Toronto as a competitor to TFC months ago. But has he come out against CPL as a whole? And who knows if their minds have changed in the last few months? People are changing their opinions on CPL all the time. And I'm glad more and more people are seeing the potential of the league.

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2 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

When you say treat it like a B-team, do you mean a roster filled with young cheap Canadians that would conform to whatever roster guidelines the CPL owners agree to as a whole?

No I mean resources would be lesser including marketing and outreach which is highly important to building the league.

4 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I'm going off memory here, feel free to quote an article where Manning comes out directly trying to derail CPL as a whole. I know he's said a ton of shit about coming out against CPL in Toronto as a competitor to TFC months ago. But has he come out against CPL as a whole? And who knows if their minds have changed in the last few months? People are changing their opinions on CPL all the time. And I'm glad more and more people are seeing the potential of the league.

As mentioned the pizza talk and putting TFC3 and later TFC2 in were very early hits against the league. Also MLS has tried to brush the CPL off as lesser.

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17 minutes ago, matty said:

Fact: The team would be marketed like shit and would not draw. It would look awful on TV and to advertisers and hurt other teams.

It's publicly tried to derail the league already, so the former is far more likely

If the team was playing at BMO with the top half closed and averaging something close to the league average in attendance, I can't see how that'd be considered awful on TV.

I am sure that Beirne and Montagliani knows to the extent whether and how much Manning has tried to derail the league as a whole. Important to distinguish between derailing the league, and derailing CPL in Toronto. And if Manning indeed has done so quite a bit, then I'm sure they'll happily say no to MLSE with a smirk on their face.

Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. Maybe he's repented, maybe he's hell-bent on destroying CPL from within. I don't know the answer to any of those questions, and I don't think most of us here would either definitively. Based on that, I think that it's not really in any of our realms to dismiss MLSE out of hand. If Beirne, Uncle Vic and Young do know what Manning's intentions are, I'm sure they will happily dismiss MLSE out of hand on our behalf. That's all. Stepping away from the computer for a bit.

Edited by ironcub14
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3 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

If the team was playing at BMO with the top half closed and averaging something close to the league average in attendance, I can't see how that'd be considered awful on TV.

I would say there's a 80% chance that proves not be the case if they're owned by MLSE and based out of BMO. Check your in box I wanna talk to you about this and not clog the thread here

Edited by matty
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1 minute ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

Like would any of the people in this thread support a MLSE owned CPL team exclusively over TFC? Would you cheer for this team against TFC?  How would you feel is MLSE spent $30,000,000 on Ronaldo but wouldn't spend money on advertising for the CPL team and would only sign very inexpensive players?

Very quickly, I think there's a lot of people in GTA and Greater Vancouver that would support CPL more or equally than the MLS club they are supporting in their city at the moment. There may be some exclusively, if they live in Sauga or Surrey, and the CPL club goes to that city, but I think initially, you'll see a lot of dual support that will gradually tilt more one way over time.

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3 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

If the team was playing at BMO with the top half closed and averaging something close to the league average in attendance, I can't see how that'd be considered awful on TV.

I am sure that Beirne and Montagliani knows to the extent whether and how much Manning has tried to derail the league as a whole. Important to distinguish between derailing the league, and derailing CPL in Toronto. And if Manning indeed has done so quite a bit, then I'm sure they'll happily say no to MLSE with a smirk on their face.

Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. Maybe he's repented, maybe he's hell-bent on destroying CPL from within. I don't know the answer to any of those questions. Based on that, I think that it's not really in any of our realms to dismiss MLSE out of hand. If Beirne, Uncle Vic and Young do know what Manning's intentions are, I'm sure they will happily dismiss MLSE out of hand on our behalf. That's all. Stepping away from the computer for a bit.

But how would you fill BMO?  They can't even get 1000 people to watch TFC2.  All of your supporters would just be TFC fans and they wouldn' show up if TFC had a match on TV.

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2 minutes ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

But how would you fill BMO?  They can't even get 1000 people to watch TFC2.  All of your supporters would just be TFC fans and they wouldn' show up if TFC had a match on TV.

I said, if a CPL TO team at BMO could average something close to the CPL average attendance, then that would be fine with me. I know we all have different projections on that, what the CPL average attendance would be like, but would it like anywhere between 5,000 and 10,000? It obviously wouldn't fill BMO, no.

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1 minute ago, ironcub14 said:

Very quickly, I think there's a lot of people in GTA and Greater Vancouver that would support CPL more or equally than the MLS club they are supporting in their city at the moment. There may be some exclusively, if they live in Sauga or Surrey, and the CPL club goes to that city, but I think initially, you'll see a lot of dual support that will gradually tilt more one way over time.

But why would you drift to the CPL side if it is just a 'light' version of what you already support?  It has no unique selling point.  If you are a TFC supporter, why would you go watch a CPL match at BMO with TFC are playing NYCFC on TV?  The only way to take supporters away from TFC is offer an alternative.  If all they ever are is just TFC light, what are people going to get excited about?  What will draw them in?

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Just for the record, my hope is that both Sauga and Toronto both have CPL clubs as soon as possible, one in each city, ownership independent of MLSE.

Enjoying the debate, you all make fine points and I'm very much aware of many of those points, but my only main point is that I won't dismiss MLSE just like that, even if it ranks much lower than an alternate ownership group. That's all.

And cheers to those going out to the Sauga SG meetup tonight at the L1O-PLSQ match. I talk so much here, I know, I sadly can't make it out to most events for this year due to family reasons, but I hope those of you who're going have a great time today.

Edited by ironcub14
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1 minute ago, ironcub14 said:

I said, if a CPL TO team at BMO could average something close to the CPL average attendance, then that would be fine with me. I know we all have different projections on that, what the CPL average attendance would be like, but would it like anywhere between 5,000 and 10,000? It obviously wouldn't fill BMO, no.

Sorry, I meant fill your reduced capacity BMO.  A TFC light couldn't attract 5,000 supporters to BMO.  And if they did, 20,000 supporters at BMO already look terrible on TV, just think how 5,000 would look.

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1 minute ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

But why would you drift to the CPL side if it is just a 'light' version of what you already support?  It has no unique selling point.  If you are a TFC supporter, why would you go watch a CPL match at BMO with TFC are playing NYCFC on TV?  The only way to take supporters away from TFC is offer an alternative.  If all they ever are is just TFC light, what are people going to get excited about?  What will draw them in?

Canadian soccer. I'm a huge fan of CanMNT and international soccer, more so than club soccer. And I understand CPL's role in all this.

And you can tell by my avatar, I don't have as big of a connection to TFC despite living in Toronto and being a south side SSH.

I want to see a CPL Toronto side unite all the Canadian soccer fans in Toronto. Not just the Voyageurs, but anybody that goes to watch CanMNT/CanWNT/CanM20/etc play at BMO and on TV.

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40 minutes ago, matty said:

Gonna say this: Anyone who thinks MLSE would not treat a CPL team like a D-team, whether it was branded that way or not, needs to take a long pause and think about it?

MLSE has publically tried to derail the CPL and chases the big bucks which they would not get out of CPL.

For the record, some people I've talked to claiming to be in the know (obviously hard to verify, but Beirne sort of implied it too in the Footysoldiers podcast) is that TFC/MLS were brought in frequently to consult on the process. 

I think people are reading much more into Bill Manning’s comments (which doesn't necessarily reflect all of MLSE) and seeing them as a reflection of an adversarial relationship. The one big sticking point - teams in MLS cities - may have caused tension, but I don't think they are trying to derail the league

Though I do agree with the general point, there's no way MLSE would treat a CPL team, especially a Toronto team, as a first team even if it was in name. I hope that if MLSE is ever directly involved they are only welcomed in with a distant franchise (ex. London) with strict roster movement rules

Edited by Complete Homer
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People are making too much of a big deal of who the owners are as I don't think the average person factors that in to their perception of the team.

A legitimate argument that could be made would be the team playing on same field as TFC...even with separate branding that would give off the perception of second fiddle team...

But either way I think a CPL at BMO would probably do well compared to some markets.  I expect the average attendance of this league to be around 2500 starting out...a CPL team at BMO could definitely do that especially when tickets would be extremely affordable relative to TFC tickets.. 

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21 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

For the record, some people I've talked to claiming to be in the know (obviously hard to verify, but Beirne sort of implied it too in the Footysoldiers podcast) is that TFC/MLS were brought in frequently to consult on the process. 

? They only just met with the CPL in November I think so I don't think this was the case.

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43 minutes ago, matty said:

? They only just met with the CPL in November I think so I don't think this was the case.

What was said to me (again, heresay, not like I can prove any of it) was that an MLS executive was frequently brought in to conference calls with the potential owners and that TFC was kept in the loop.

The TiCats sitting down with Manning was supposedly a bit different, and was apparently related to questions if the CSA would sanction teams in MLS cities. Again, hearsay, probably good to take it with a grain of salt. The person said they didn't mind me passing it on, but again it's not like it can be confirmed or anything (and it would be 2nd hand at best). I just thought I'd mention it. 

Edited by Complete Homer
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3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

What was said to me (again, heresay, not like I can prove any of it) was that an MLS executive was frequently brought in to conference calls with the potential owners and that TFC was kept in the loop.

My interpretation was that the TiCats sitting down with Manning was a bit different, and was apparently related to questions if the CSA would sanction teams in MLS cities. Again, hearsay, probably good to take it with a grain of salt. 

Lol.  Hearsay and grains of salt seem to be the universal currency these days.  The Gold Cup has distracted for the last couple of weeks, but once it wraps up we will all be screaming for more CPL info.  The further along we get without a fair number of concrete announcements re teams and stadiums,  the less likely a 2018 launch seems to be - even a soft half-season launch.

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2 hours ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

I just don't understand why you would support a CPL club in Toronto if it is just part of the TFC family? As a supporter, what would attract you to the CPL version over the MLS version? I just don't see how it could draw any fan interest or create it's own culture. 

This.

2 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

As I said above, I'd much prefer an independent owner pop up for Toronto.

But just to answer your question, it'd be to support CPL, and Canadian soccer by extension. And more Canadian players. Whether the team was branded as an offshoot of TFC, or with a completely another brand.

This is all a theoretical exercise on a forum. But if MLSE came out tomorrow saying they're owning a CPL team in Toronto, why would a CPL supporter in Toronto NOT support that team, if the survival of this league and the success of Canadian soccer is the ultimate objective?

Is support of MLS and CPL mutually exclusive? Is MLSE compelled to use CPL as a vehicle to undermine the league, rather than perhaps coming around to it as another possible revenue-making entity? Perhaps so, perhaps not.

All theoretical, devil's advocate, etc. Nobody wants it, but I'm saying, don't dismiss the idea out of hand. Honestly, I'm not advocating for MLSE or Argos at all, but I do think that the bashing of either of the two entities has been a bit frustrating to see over the long term. I do think that Young and Beirne would say no to MLSE, because of all the incredibly stupid things Manning said over the year, but honestly, it would be nice for MLSE to come around, for the grand scheme of things.

MLSE to come around? They wanted to be at the CPL discussions table back when the league was announced in May but got ignored because of how they wanted to put TFC 3 or TFC 2 in the league.

Edited by Macksam
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8 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Lol.  Hearsay and grains of salt seem to be the universal currency these days.  The Gold Cup has distracted for the last couple of weeks, but once it wraps up we will all be screaming for more CPL info.  The further along we get without a fair number of concrete announcements re teams and stadiums,  the less likely a 2018 launch seems to be - even a soft half-season launch.

Yeah I hesitated to even say anything, more hearsay probably doesn't help anything, just worth noting that there may be more to the story than "TFC wants to kill CPL" 

But Beirne did say that TFC has been in on many meetings along the way, so that sort of backs it up a little 

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8 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Lol.  Hearsay and grains of salt seem to be the universal currency these days.  The Gold Cup has distracted for the last couple of weeks, but once it wraps up we will all be screaming for more CPL info.  The further along we get without a fair number of concrete announcements re teams and stadiums,  the less likely a 2018 launch seems to be - even a soft half-season launch.

Yeah I hesitated to even say anything, more hearsay probably doesn't help anything, just worth noting that there may be more to the story than "TFC wants to kill CPL" 

But Beirne did say that TFC has been in on many meetings along the way, so that sort of backs it up a little 

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Just now, Complete Homer said:

Yeah I hesitated to even say anything, more hearsay probably doesn't help anything, just worth noting that there may be more to the story than "TFC wants to kill CPL" 

But Beirne did say that TFC has been in on many meetings along the way, so that sort of backs it up a little 

And it wasn't a shot at you.  I just find all the boom-rumours and reading of tea leaves funny.  We are so starved for concrete new of progress that we scrutinize obscure tweets and foreign-language newspapers that almost no one on here have ever heard of.

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1 hour ago, matty said:

Gonna say this: Anyone who thinks MLSE would not treat a CPL team like a D-team, whether it was branded that way or not, needs to take a long pause and think about it?

The point is moot as Paul Beirne has made it clear that it is not happening at launch with year ten being mentioned as the timeline to start having that sort of conversation. Think that's unfotunate but it is what it is as that's the way the people with the money obviously see it. The Italian media stories were obvious examples of "fake news" as the Argos angle was completely absurd and was probably circulated by somebody that is angling for employment in Italy and is hence likely to build up his stature in the sport into more than it really is, so no idea why a Toronto CPL team would even be a conversation topic at this point beyond it being a future aspiration.

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