MLS expansion

[harrycoyster]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Thanks for the Red Bulls stat, I have seen too many games with empty seats in that stadium, though. Maybe they are out eating.

I don't mind Cincinnati since it will be successful. But that is, as you effectively confirm, just the rest of the MLS putting up with a state rivalry. And frankly no one cares outside of Ohio, why should we have to put up with that just because Cinci wants to rival Columbus? Anyways, two hours is nothing in North America distances.

As for Sacramento: another place the rest of the league has to put up with as a sure formula for mediocrity and boredom, just because they have a bunch of ambitious monied types. They don't deserve the NBA franchise and I can't understand how the league thinks going there meets an overall aim.

I think the ideal list of cities for MLS is San Diego, St. Louis, Phoenix, Charlotte. All of those cities have substantially higher upside than Cincinnati, Sacramento and Nashville, but they all have downsides keeping them out of MLS. San Diego and St. Louis aren't even close to getting downtown land for a stadium. Phoenix has weather issues, an unimpressive soccer/sporting history and relatively small pockets. Charlotte's ownership group is a disaster and the city has no interest in funding a stadium. As we are seeing with the CPL, it's more about the ownership group than the city when you talk expansion.

Cincinnati and Sacramento aren't great markets, but they will draw huge crowds, they have cities willing to fund stadiums, and have deep pockets. I don't think MLS is loosing sleep over needing to wait on the huge markets until 2026 when they will charge $300 million for an expansion fee.

Who do you see being teams 25-28?

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Who do you see being teams 25-28?

I really don't know harrycoyster. I was just stating what I think is the right way to think it through from a league perspective. And why they should not just take a Cincinnati because it seems like a sure bet in the stands, and ignoring the demographic balance of the league.

I suppose, but am not sure, that the overall tv market and merchandising are relatively small and not key factors yet. The league is a long way from having big supporter clusters of one team living in another city, for example. It probably has a negligible audience for games not by your own team. In Canada, maybe, fans will watch a team that is not 1st choice, but in the States? I mean, what is the team that draws the best tv audiences outside its immediate metropolitan area-region?

I mean, MLS has stars, but not one of them is a high-profile public figure with good communication skills working social media successfully and thus sellling shirts for his club, and gettting personal sponsorship deals. Which MLS player is currently the one rival fans will buy a ticket to see? (Personally, at Caps, I want to see the CDN teams, Cascadia rivals, Orlando with Larin, and maybe see Villa for my Spain/Barça interest). I suspect TFC is the club to watch now, but that is also because for Canadians it is a CDN club and there is rivalry, and for Americans it has leading USMNT players as a plus. And of course because it is the hardest team to beat. But I doubt they are developing a shirt-wearing fan base in rival markets.

[Rheo]

Wow the Detroit bid isn't very smart

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2017/11/02/detroit-mls-bid-ford-field/823112001/

Bringing in the Fords, good idea, abandoning the idea of a soccer specific stadium stupid (MLS already pointing the preference for SSS in response to the adding of the Fords. 

Also the MLS ownership group apparently used DCFC  logos in concept art without permission and people are going crazy over it lol.

[harrycoyster]

14 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Wow the Detroit bid isn't very smart

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2017/11/02/detroit-mls-bid-ford-field/823112001/

Bringing in the Fords, good idea, abandoning the idea of a soccer specific stadium stupid (MLS already pointing the preference for SSS in response to the adding of the Fords. 

Also the MLS ownership group apparently used DCFC  logos in concept art without permission and people are going crazy over it lol.

Likely that they realized they were behind Cincy and Nashville on the SSS front and decided to shift focus...all three can't get in the 28. Looks like this is a "We'll be the next Seattle/Atlanta" statement.

[Rheo]

And here's the apology article lol to DCFC http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2017/11/02/mls-expansion-detroit-dcfc/827303001/

[Free kick]

I hope that they stick to their guns and insists on a SSS or no franchise is awarded.    Without SSS’s, the league would be trending back to what the old NASL of the seventies and eighties.   Meaning, a bunch football stadium that are getting “used” for soccer.  I stress the word “USED” here, because it has many meanings.  

The game, if its to truly grow, cant allow itself to get “used”.   It cant let owners of other pro sports teams use soccer solely for the purpose of adding dates/revenues for their venues.  This is why the New England Rev’s are regarded as poorest run team (in terms of ownership) in MLS.  His owner only cares about his NFL team and the MLS squad is there  just to ensure that Gillette stadium is not empty for 17 days.  

Canada serves up the best example of soccer getting “used”.  This happened in Ottawa and Hamilton. And to a lesser extent Toronto and Vancouver.  In ottawa, the owners, who are CFL guys, promised to add a soccer team in second div NASL whose following is marginal.  The alternate plan, from Eugene Melnyk, was for a SSS for an MLS team at time when the league was still growing and they would have had a good chance of getting a club.   So what does the ottawa owners ultimately do with their soccer club? They bail at the first chance and drop to even lower league.   That not a commitment to soccer. Rather,  SOCCER, in ottawa, got “USED” in order to make the pitch more palateable to the politicians whose backing Is need to finance the stadium for the CFL.

Hamilton is another example.  The stdium was supposed to be for track and field in the pan ams.  But the cfl owner doesnt want a huge track around the field killing the sightlines.  So they conjured up a scheme to killing track and field and have soccer played there instead. Meanwhile, there was a perfectly better SSS in toronto.  Soccer got “USED” in hamilton in oder to get government to pay for a new CFL stadium, just like ottawa.

So when i heard that the this CPL thing was backed the CFL owners!, i knew right away that i am not giving a pennie to these guys.  TThese same guys have gotten their lunch eaten in Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto.  The proof,  just look attendance for the MLS versus CFL in those cities.  

Atlanta, with its recent 70k turnouts, is one off temporary thing.  They wont get anywhere near that after the novelty of the new stadium has worn out. At that time, they will be stuck with cavernous oversized stadium.   In this day and age of HD TV, only the NFL can fill that kind of facility. No other sport, including soccer can fill that. Its too big. It was built for the NFL..period.

 

[Free kick]

PS.: a tip of the hat to Saskatchewan and the Roughriders.   They build a stadium for the cfl and the cfl only. And made no hypocritical promises to the soccer community. And, maybe, i could say the same for Winnipeg. 

[Rheo]

I got into a discussion with some locals (Windsor and Detroit) and they assume MLS to Detroit is a done deal now.  When I pointed out it's probably not the lock they think it is (with evidence lol) they just wouldn't have anything of it.  

I just find it really short sighted.  They had the SSS line-up and then to change so late in the process is really just baffling especially when this is probably the top market they want to get into.  Supposedly the land swap which was the key for the SSS is still in play but they want to use it now for the joint Windsor/Detroit bid for the Amazon headquarters.

[harrycoyster]

Nashville is confirmed. Sacramento looking likely.

 

Crazy to leave Cincinnati out IMO, but they do have the least obvious path of a SSS.

[Prune_55]

7 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Nashville is confirmed. Sacramento looking likely.

 

Crazy to leave Cincinnati out IMO, but they do have the least obvious path of a SSS.

Both Cincy and Sacremento will be announced in the new year.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Miami is still no sure thing, so they might be dragging it out to see what happens there.

[spinrack]

MLS has officially announced the (currently unnamed) Miami expansion team.

They will start play in 2020, with a permanent stadium coming a year or so later.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/01/29/its-official-major-league-soccer-awards-expansion-team-miami

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/mls/article197169104.html

[Gian-Luca]

Someone in MLS needs a Canadian geography lesson based on that "Expansion History" graphic they put up - Toronto's practically in Michigan while they put Montreal in Ontario roughly where Kingston actually is!

[spinrack]

This will put MLS at 24 teams, and they have stated that they wish to expand to 28.

They really need to make a firm decision about what to do about the size of the league.
It is pretty well established at this point that MLS is not in favour of any form of promotion/relegation, so it seems like the only option is to continue with an unbalanced schedule.
Expansion plans will even further unbalance things, so from an outsider's perspective, it looks like they are taking Major League Baseball or maybe NHL as a model.  i.e. Teams mostly play within their own conference, with occasional inter-conference play throughout the season.   I'm not sure that this kind of structure is beneficial, but it's the established North American way of doing things in some pro sports leagues.

[Gian-Luca]

I wonder what this means for Cincinnati and Columbus. I was thinking it was pretty certain that Cincinnati would be awarded one of the two spots for this go round with Columbus seemingly destined for Austin Texas as I'd assume MLS would want to have some presence in Ohio. I mean, is having a third team in Texas - and Austin at that - really a better market/situation for national tv than having no teams in Ohio?

Columbus just traded another one of their better players today (Meram to Orlando) after trading Kamara to LA. No players in return but they do get TAM, I wonder if this is part of a fire-sale though for last year in Columbus.

[Rheo]

And Cinci it is http://www.espn.com/soccer/major-league-soccer/story/3508873/fc-cincinnati-to-make-announcement-next-week-amid-mls-expansion-race

[Keegan]

What makes them think Austin is viable if Dallas and Houston can’t even get great support with good teams? Maybe they realize now it’s all about the launch and they’re confident they can get a Seattle/Orlando/Atlanta type reaction in Texas. 

[1996]

Yup and Houston has a soccer stadium built just a few years ago right in downtown Houston so no excuse about being out in the suburbs like the stadium in Dallas that is out in the boonies, yet everytime I see highlights from Houston your lucky if there are 3000 people there in that 20000 seat stadium.

[shamrock]

They do have a couple of other options available if your'e a sports fan in Houston though...I think Austin would do great, especially downtown with an hipster angle like Portland.  

[harrycoyster]

On 1/29/2018 at 3:26 PM, spinrack said:

This will put MLS at 24 teams, and they have stated that they wish to expand to 28.

They really need to make a firm decision about what to do about the size of the league.
It is pretty well established at this point that MLS is not in favour of any form of promotion/relegation, so it seems like the only option is to continue with an unbalanced schedule.
Expansion plans will even further unbalance things, so from an outsider's perspective, it looks like they are taking Major League Baseball or maybe NHL as a model.  i.e. Teams mostly play within their own conference, with occasional inter-conference play throughout the season.   I'm not sure that this kind of structure is beneficial, but it's the established North American way of doing things in some pro sports leagues.

I mean, it's not like the schedule is balanced right now. I prefer a balanced schedule, but if the league goes to 30....6 divisions of 5 teams with home/away in division , one game against all other teams is a good way to that 30-35 game range to leave space for the playoffs.