BC Soccer aiming to launch "Regional Tier 3 League"

[Complete Homer]

40 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

CH, promotion should NEVER be contingent on spending, that is frankly shocking you'd come up with that.

Promotion should be contingent on competiting better than your rivals. Then, when you do it, sure, fulfil the requirements at the higher level. Which should not necessarily be more costly, as that would be dumb: punish whole groups of families financially because their kids play well  together.

What you are suggesting is not kitschy, it is the formula for soccer failure, it is plain stupid. How in the world can you argue that standards are not related to playing the game successfully? We have just an ass-backward way of thinking this through in Canada it is amazing, we assume that if a club is successful it is because they did something nasty, it is so puritanically-minded and retrograde. Hey, those kids won: get out the whips and teach them to flagellate themselves.

 

Because it is a supposed to be a standards based development league. If you simply promote anyone who focused 100% on winning short term but neglected the standards (mandatory # of training sessions, mandatory coaching qualifications, etc), you'll just end up with the same types of teams full of athletic but low skill players that have held us back.

This isn't just a north American opinion. In the Netherlands, if you win promotion, you aren't welcome in the top division if you cannot meet minimum requirements. 

Not trying to pick an argument with you though

Edited March 17, 2017 by Complete Homer

[Rintaran]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

What you are saying is fine, technical and operational documents, fulfilling Charters. But once you have the minimum standards in place it is bullshit, sorry to say. The idea that a club fulfills requirements in coaching or facilities, that is great: it is standard in Europe for higher divisions to require higher coaching accreditation, for example. So fine, but it means nothing for development, it is what some typically qualified Canadian bureacrat can make up, and it's garbage. 

Yes, once the minimum standards are in place, restricting geographically is bullshit, assuming you can subsidize travel. The minimum standards are not yet in play. Heck, they haven't even announced the requirements for Charter Level 2 and Level 3 yet, let alone begun certifying clubs.

BC Soccer doesn't want some a team from a club that's one match away from bankruptcy, or whose coach doesn't have the training necessary to develop kids to be running a team at the HP level. For development, these standards mean a consistent minimum level is expected, and the inability to obtain that level shows you, as a club, aren't serious. Those minimums are built into the charter, and into BCRT3 (the actual topic of this thread, which is officially unconnected to the BC HP leagues).

Minimums exist in almost every league & pyramid around the world. Even where there is promotion & relegation, it occasionally happens that a team may have to opt not to take the earned promotion because they lack the appropriate facilities to meet that level's standards. More often, those that lack the technical & operational know-how, fail to have consistent enough play & development for the team to move beyond the standards they currently meet.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

Because it is a supposed to be a standards based development league. If you simply promote anyone who focused 100% on winning short term but neglected the standards (mandatory # of training sessions, mandatory coaching qualifications, etc), you'll just end up with the same types of teams full of athletic but low skill players that have held us back.

This isn't just a north American opinion. In the Netherlands, if you win promotion, you aren't welcome in the top division if you cannot meet minimum requirements. 

Not trying to pick an argument with you though

Your whole argument is ass-backwards. 

First, if you win a league that is not winning short term. It is the hardest thing to do in football, you need everything to do it.

Second, nowhere in the world are soccer leagues won by the best athletes. As if you could stack them all on one team anyways, where does that happen? This is just a rote-learnt argument repeated blindly with no foundation. I can assure you the best teams anywhere in any promotion system actually do have more skilled players, who of course are also fit, have balance, resistance, tactics. 

I am not really interested in insulting anyone, not you, I am just irate at the  logic which is blindly repeated with no foundation. This is the same argument that gets repeated all the time in Canada and it is completely wrong. It is based on other sports, on analyzing what jocks do in pick up games at school, on supposing that one team will have athletics and another won't (what, one team gets all the sprinters and the other all the dribblers?). It is unfounded, and, lo and behold: we are the only ones who use it to justify our failures. 

The rest of the world, all of it, has competitive youth leagues in promo-releg systems, because it is what works. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

This is basically a Canadian clerks run soccer thread.

[NVsoccer]

Predictions on teams, cities, or stadiums/parks? 

[ted]

2 hours ago, NVsoccer said:

Predictions on teams, cities, or stadiums/parks? 

Cities are pretty obvious, well most of them:

Victoria
Nanaimo
Abbotsford
Penticton
Kelowna
Surrey
Kamloops
New Westminster
Vancouver

[Dominic94]

So this is supposed to be as good as L10 and PLSQ ?

[NVsoccer]

2 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

So this is supposed to be as good as L10 and PLSQ ?

I assume so

[hamiltonfan]

thought this may be of interest.

PDL is at a higher standard than L1O, but when does it make sense for clubs remaining in PDL to switch to respective provincial D3 league and contribute to increasing the standard? 

We saw FC London do just that in L1O. 

I suspect apprehensions also relates to forgoing PDL expansion fees and other sunk league cost. Similar tune to FCE's and the NASL/CPL debate.

Edited March 22, 2017 by hamiltonfan

[ted]

14 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

So this is supposed to be as good as L10 and PLSQ ?

It will be at precisely the same level, D3 as those leagues.

The term, "as good as", is a subjective statement, a matter of opinion.

 

2 hours ago, hamiltonfan said:

PDL is at a higher standard than L1O, but when does it make sense for clubs remaining in PDL to switch to respective provincial D3 league and contribute to increasing the standard?

Actually no, PDL is technically below the D3 level (USL), but see comments above re: opinion.

Realistically the difference between a BCD3 and the PDL would be meaningless for teams like the Highlanders. We would be playing with the same players, living off the same budgets, and drawing the same crowds.

I see no reason to stay in the PDL if this league comes to fruition.

[hamiltonfan]

18 minutes ago, ted said:

It will be at precisely the same level, D3 as those leagues.

The term, "as good as", is a subjective statement, a matter of opinion.

 

Actually no, PDL is technically below the D3 level (USL), but see comments above re: opinion.

Realistically the difference between a BCD3 and the PDL would be meaningless for teams like the Highlanders. We would be playing with the same players, living off the same budgets, and drawing the same crowds.

I see no reason to stay in the PDL if this league comes to fruition.

Without question PDL's on field standards are superior than L1O today. Lets not be blinded by the bureaucracy.  

[ted]

40 minutes ago, hamiltonfan said:

Without question PDL's on field standards are superior than L1O today. Lets not be blinded by the bureaucracy.  

Are they? L1O must be pretty bad.

I can't judge quality of a league I have never seen and will have to trust your judgement. What I can say for sure is that the same players in the PDL NW Division will be playing in the BCD3.

[Kent]

I imagine the assertion that PDL is higher quality than L1O (aside from eyeball tests) mostly relies on the fact that FC London and Toronto Lynx went from the PDL to L1O (Lynx were rebranded as the Oakville Blue Devils) and did very well.

Oakville won the league in their first year in 2015 (although they crashed out of the L1O Cup at the group stage).

FC London finished first in the Western Conference in their first year in 2016, but lost out on the championship to Vaughan Azzurri (the Eastern Conference champs), and were eliminated in the round of 16 in the L1O Cup.

I think there has probably also been a friendly or two between PDL and L1O teams, but I'm not positive about that. Either way, in my opinion PDL teams are in existence to develop players, presumably the ones in Canada are in existence to develop Canadian players, and I think they could do more for Canadian player development by joining their regional D3 leagues than by staying in PDL. But that's just my opinion.

[Rintaran]

12 hours ago, hamiltonfan said:

thought this may be of interest.

I was just working on an article for Northern Starting Eleven, and just received e-mails back from both TSS FC Rovers & Victoria Highlanders FC. I had quite a few questions (and some interesting answers), but the most salient information for this thread is that neither team will be moving to BCRT3 in the "foreseeable future".

Victoria is generally considered a prime target for the league, but with Highlanders opting out for now, I'm not sure who would field a team, or if two teams of roughly the same calibre could survive in this market (sponsorships, fans, etc).

9 hours ago, ted said:

Are they? L1O must be pretty bad.

I can't judge quality of a league I have never seen and will have to trust your judgement. What I can say for sure is that the same players in the PDL NW Division will be playing in the BCD3.

From what I've seen, L1O & PLSQ have a handful of really, really, good teams, that would probably do well through PDL playoffs. But they also have a fair number of teams that at the end of the season would, well, lose to last year's Highlanders, at the fitness & skill level of the home opener (shudder), by 2 or 3 goals. The really good teams for PLSQ are CS Mont-Royal Outremont & AS Blainville. For L1O you're looking at Vaughan Azzurri, Woodbridge Strikers, North Toronto Nitros, FC London, and Sigma FC. Oakville Blue Devils are up & down from one year to the next. With TFC's PDL team being no more, TFC III will probably see a bit of a boost in their quality too.

The quality of L1O & PLSQ have both improved pretty steadily from one year to the next. If they continue to improve, I expect they'll get on-par with PDL quality within another 5-years, and maybe become a proper 3rd-division quality within 5-10 years after that. This does depend a lot on what the first couple seasons of CanPL ends up doing to top-end of the L1O/PLSQ playing pool.

On 3/18/2017 at 9:39 PM, NVsoccer said:

Predictions on teams, cities, or stadiums/parks? 

Eliminating Victoria, and with Nanaimo's recent resounding vote against the creation of a hockey arena that would have given them a team to derby with Victoria Royals, I'm going to say no BCRT3 teams on the island to start.

My 8-pick:

Prince George (crazy pick)
Abbotsford
Penticton
Kelowna
Surrey
Kamloops
New Westminster
Vancouver

[ted]

50 minutes ago, Rintaran said:

Victoria is generally considered a prime target for the league, but with Highlanders opting out for now, I'm not sure who would field a team, or if two teams of roughly the same calibre could survive in this market (sponsorships, fans, etc).

It's not just a, "prime target", without Victoria this league loses a huge amount of credibility. If it cannot convince the Highlanders to participate it looks like a joke. FFS the Highlanders have agreed to participate in the PCSL again this year! If your league is less attractive than the PCSL...

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, Rintaran said:

I was just working on an article for Northern Starting Eleven, and just received e-mails back from both TSS FC Rovers & Victoria Highlanders FC. I had quite a few questions (and some interesting answers), but the most salient information for this thread is that neither team will be moving to BCRT3 in the "foreseeable future".

Victoria is generally considered a prime target for the league, but with Highlanders opting out for now, I'm not sure who would field a team, or if two teams of roughly the same calibre could survive in this market (sponsorships, fans, etc).

From what I've seen, L1O & PLSQ have a handful of really, really, good teams, that would probably do well through PDL playoffs. But they also have a fair number of teams that at the end of the season would, well, lose to last year's Highlanders, at the fitness & skill level of the home opener (shudder), by 2 or 3 goals. The really good teams for PLSQ are CS Mont-Royal Outremont & AS Blainville. For L1O you're looking at Vaughan Azzurri, Woodbridge Strikers, North Toronto Nitros, FC London, and Sigma FC. Oakville Blue Devils are up & down from one year to the next. With TFC's PDL team being no more, TFC III will probably see a bit of a boost in their quality too.

The quality of L1O & PLSQ have both improved pretty steadily from one year to the next. If they continue to improve, I expect they'll get on-par with PDL quality within another 5-years, and maybe become a proper 3rd-division quality within 5-10 years after that. This does depend a lot on what the first couple seasons of CanPL ends up doing to top-end of the L1O/PLSQ playing pool.

Eliminating Victoria, and with Nanaimo's recent resounding vote against the creation of a hockey arena that would have given them a team to derby with Victoria Royals, I'm going to say no BCRT3 teams on the island to start.

My 8-pick:

Prince George (crazy pick)
Abbotsford
Penticton
Kelowna
Surrey
Kamloops
New Westminster
Vancouver

If it's anything like L1O, you'll have 4 in Vancouver, 2 in Richmond, 1 in Surrey, and 1 in Kamloops.  These leagues don't exactly have a wide geographical birth on them - PLSQ is much the same way.

[Gopherbashi]

10 hours ago, ted said:

Are they? L1O must be pretty bad.

I can't judge quality of a league I have never seen and will have to trust your judgement. What I can say for sure is that the same players in the PDL NW Division will be playing in the BCD3.

Wouldn't be too sure about that - people with their own teams like to do their own thing.

I don't know that the on-field quality of L1O is much worse (at least for the top half of teams) - the big difference I notice vs the PDL is the front office (or lack thereof).  PDL actually tries to do some marketing and make a proper club out of it, whereas the L1O sides seem to be happy focusing on player development - simply being high-level extensions of their academy or youth system and not trying to focus on the business aspect of it.

[Kent]

10 hours ago, ted said:

It's not just a, "prime target", without Victoria this league loses a huge amount of credibility. If it cannot convince the Highlanders to participate it looks like a joke. FFS the Highlanders have agreed to participate in the PCSL again this year! If your league is less attractive than the PCSL...

For what it's worth, L1O wasn't able to draw in Ontario's PDL clubs either (until they forced London's hand) and they also couldn't draw any CSL teams, or prevent new ones from popping up. Despite that, although the crowd sizes haven't been anything to brag about (as Gopherbashi mentions, they don't seem to market their teams) the league has been very successful at promoting players to pro and college environments. 

[ted]

Of course maybe the reason they aren't talking D3 is that they are planning to go CanPL?

Hey, a guy can dream.

But of course if we did go CanPL I'd still want us to have a "reserve/development" team in the BCD3.

[Gopherbashi]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

For what it's worth, L1O wasn't able to draw in Ontario's PDL clubs either (until they forced London's hand) and they also couldn't draw any CSL teams, or prevent new ones from popping up. Despite that, although the crowd sizes haven't been anything to brag about (as Gopherbashi mentions, they don't seem to market their teams) the league has been very successful at promoting players to pro and college environments. 

Not true; they drew Windsor and TFC Academy.

[Kent]

34 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

Not true; they drew Windsor and TFC Academy.

That's two days in a row I made an incorrect claim. I need to get some sleep tonight.

Thanks Gopherbashi for the correction.

[Complete Homer]

https://www.bcsoccer.net/news/post/update-on-bc-soccer-regional-tier-three-league-initiative?platform=hootsuite

Looks like BC D3 isn't happening in 2018 due to lack of interest. Disappointing. 

[baulderdash77]

When the PDL teams backed out it was trouble.

[Big_M]

With two teams in pdl it will be extremely difficult to get it going. Quebec started with 5 teams and is now only at 7.

[Rintaran]

IMO a HUGE part of the reason for the lack of interest, is the lack of a reason to be interested. The way BCRT3 was proposed had such a short season, and such a huge increase in required expenses that there would be zero benefit for PDL or PCSL teams to move there from their current league. Add on to that the fact that the PDL teams are currently league tied.

From my discussions with the BC PDL team GMs, Rovers have a 3-year contract with PDL, and Highlanders are also under contract (presumably year 2 of 3). There was no possibility of them moving over immediately.

They claim they'll be trying again in 2019 or 2020, but unless they plan to better differentiate and provide a more realistic ROI estimate, BC Soccer is going to continue to have a hard sell for this league.