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shermanator

BC Soccer aiming to launch "Regional Tier 3 League"

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I haven't read the documents, but are there any U23 leanings like with L1O? The short summer schedule seems like it must be geared towards college/university players, but I haven't heard anything yet like a quota for U23s or something.

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1 hour ago, Kent said:

I haven't read the documents, but are there any U23 leanings like with L1O? The short summer schedule seems like it must be geared towards college/university players, but I haven't heard anything yet like a quota for U23s or something.

There is a little bit:

  • Minimum 8 U-23 players per team at the match.
  • Minimum 4 U-23 starters per team
  • Max 3 "import" players

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18 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

It's going to be very difficult to link up with the D3 Cup in November when their season ends in July.  I wouldn't count on them taking part (at least not with the same players).

As for the attendance and profit/loss calculation, remember that clubs have other sources of revenue besides ticket sales (ie. registration fees not only for BCRT3 players, but also other youth & adult players within their organization) and that teams may transition some existing staff from programs they're already operating (or possibly just move everything over from existing leagues).  Besides, it's not as if those teams are making buckets of money from ticket sales now - it will become an issue of how much more those net game-day losses are with the added staff, and whether teams think that's worth it.

If they do not participate in the D3 cup then the whole exercise is pointless IMO. We have the PDL and PCSL and without that linkage this is a waste of time and effort.

If you are talking about stealing money from youth registration fees we have a big problem. That is a sure-fire way to piss off a large chunk of the parents.

 

15 hours ago, Benjamin Massey said:

In BC Soccer's defense, you're making the exact math mistake I made when I looked at this yesterday: dividing $8,400 per year walk-up ticket revenue by $12 a ticket = 700 tickets, but then not dividing 700 tickets by 7 home games = 100 walk-ups per game.

OH MY ******* GODS!!!! I never dreamed they would be talking about total annual attendance, I just assumed they were talking average attendances PER GAME and never bothered to check all the math. :o

I guess it makes more sense now as those numbers did seem overly ambitious but my starry-eyed optimism wanted to see positive, aggressive targets.

My bad.

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22 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Interview on SPN Soccer Today (January 20th, near the end of the podcast) had a couple tidbits. Sounds like they are open to a longer season but want to see good viability before they promise a longer season 

Here's a summary:

Financial requirements are high because they don't want it to be a "flash-in-pan, one-off season." They're looking for consistency & continuity with a 3-year commitment period.

With the CanPL coming along, BC was missing a key step in the development pathway. BCRT3 will sit below Whitecaps' USL-side and help bridge the gap. This will provide some key players to CanPL down the line.

There were 2 main reasons for the 3-month season, which was summed up as "Let's not run before we can walk." The league is "new territory" and experimental in nature. They are open to extending the season if it shows consistency. Additionally, they were concerned about the potential player pool and identified CIS & NCAA players returning to BC for the summer as the likely pool.

In regards to the D3-Interprovincial Cup: That's a connection to be explored "eventually."

In regards to women's sides: Something to consider one-day. "Let's not run before we can walk."

My interpretation:

It seems like they're really unsure how stable the league will be, and like they're trying not to shake things up dramatically with current leagues. From the way I read it, the season won't be lengthened until at least 3-years have gone by, and don't expect them to be a part of the D3-Cup until that point. Similarly, I wouldn't expect women's sides to come into play until 5 or 6 years down the line from the way he chose his words (if ever).

One thing I did find interesting was that he seemed really hopeful that there would be teams from across the island, the Okanagan, and even in Northern BC. Given the low-balled ticket-count, I think it would be great to see some teams from those areas, but given the player pool they're aiming for, it's probably pretty doubtful.

There are some bright points of their cautious walk-run method. This likely means that PDL teams will not be shoe-horned over for at least 3+ years (unless they want to be a part of the league). It also may play a role in finishing off the PCSL as more professionally-run clubs take off. It also means that they won't aim to expand and grow at a super-sized pace, thereby reducing risk and helping to promote league stability while controlling potential losses. All-in-all, pretty good for business.

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I am going to be hugely disappointed if they don't participate in the inter provincial cup. I will hold out hope until there is official word that they won't participate. If I remember correctly the first inter provincial cup was announced right at the end of the inaugural L1O season, not long at all before it was played.

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10 minutes ago, Kent said:

I am going to be hugely disappointed if they don't participate in the inter provincial cup. I will hold out hope until there is official word that they won't participate. If I remember correctly the first inter provincial cup was announced right at the end of the inaugural L1O season, not long at all before it was played.

I don't see them participating until they still have players around at that time of year; ie. with a longer season.

I guess it's also possible that they do an end-of-July tournament, where L1O and PLSQ just send their mid-season leaders, but I don't see us easterners being open to that.

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Just now, Gopherbashi said:

I don't see them participating until they still have players around at that time of year; ie. with a longer season.

I guess it's also possible that they do an end-of-July tournament, where L1O and PLSQ just send their mid-season leaders, but I don't see us easterners being open to that.

I am not as sure about PLSQ, but I know L1O teams lose a lot of players when university/college starts back up, but they bring up younger guys to fill in the gaps. The BC league could do the same thing. To me this is better than not playing at all.

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So it seems like the Interprovincial Cup is no more, as a result of the L1O & PLSQ league champions being added to the V-Cup in 2018. This setup also creates an opening for the BCRT3's 1st champion to join the V-Cup in 2019, despite the reduced season length.

Also, I received a reply to a couple of questions from BC Soccer. Very few questions were answered unfortunately. Full article here: http://www.northernstartingeleven.com/the-bc-regional-tier-3-march-update/

The TLDR:

The name BCRT3 is not set in stone.

There is no separate cup competition. Playoff(s) will happen at the end of the year to determine the BCRT3 Cup Champion.

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12 hours ago, Rintaran said:

So it seems like the Interprovincial Cup is no more, as a result of the L1O & PLSQ league champions being added to the V-Cup in 2018. This setup also creates an opening for the BCRT3's 1st champion to join the V-Cup in 2019, despite the reduced season length.

Also, I received a reply to a couple of questions from BC Soccer. Very few questions were answered unfortunately. Full article here: http://www.northernstartingeleven.com/the-bc-regional-tier-3-march-update/

The TLDR:

The name BCRT3 is not set in stone.

There is no separate cup competition. Playoff(s) will happen at the end of the year to determine the BCRT3 Cup Champion.

Good article, thanks for that. Maybe I missed something but I didn't get the impression the cup was going to be an end of season playoff. Sounds like they are allowing a lot of fluidity in the early years until they find what works for them. Hopefully that will work out for them.

Glad to hear they may change the BCRT3 name, because I think it's terrible. It sounds like it's the 3rd tier provincial league. At first I didn't like League1 Ontario, I agree that it's weird to not have a space before the 1. However, it has grown on me a bit over the years and I think it would be good for BC to use the same branding to make things clear for everyone involved.

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Yeah, I read it a little bit differently as well (punctuation added in red)

“We do have a play-off system in place; in addition to the league standings, there is an integrated Cup schedule, please refer to the RT3 Operations Manual and Technical Standards and this section below:”

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I do hope that my interpretation of his answer is incorrect. A Cup competition, plus the regular season with playoffs would be preferable. I did e-mail a draft of this article to Csabi a week prior to publication in order to make sure my interpretations weren't far off, but I haven't received any reply. At this point, that leads me to believe there are no corrections that he would like to issue at this time.

I have a feeling the league is going to be very fluid in its format for the first few years. I think they're being deliberately vague until they approve the first season's teams & owners, who from the documents will have a fair bit of say in how the league run.

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On 17/1/2017 at 4:42 AM, shermanator said:

My first question is whether Victoria Highlanders or TSS Rovers would want to move from PDL to a BC based league. If not right away, would they be forced in a number of years similar to FC London and KW United (if they are still being forced)?

But TSS is not even in the youth HP system, so you have this huge contradiction: franchises for top level development, and players in other clubs, not lucky enough to have been chosen, who are just as good. 

The choice of the franchises for the HP leagues was basically random. Lots of equally good clubs got left out. Many for reasons of being too close to another good one. It is geography-based, and does not ensure the best have been chosen.

Which is why it is stupid to have a closed franchise one division system. It would be much better to have two divisions, install promo-relegation, and let them fight it out for the top flight. Otherwise, with only 8 teams, some good ones who deserve to be there are going to be left out. 

How much do you want to bet that existing teams in the youth HP system are given priority?

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But TSS is not even in the youth HP system, so you have this huge contradiction: franchises for top level development, and players in other clubs, not lucky enough to have been chosen, who are just as good. 

The choice of the franchises for the HP leagues was basically random. Lots of equally good clubs got left out. Many for reasons of being too close to another good one. It is geography-based, and does not ensure the best have been chosen.

Which is why it is stupid to have a closed franchise one division system. It would be much better to have two divisions, install promo-relegation, and let them fight it out for the top flight. Otherwise, with only 8 teams, some good ones who deserve to be there are going to be left out. 

How much do you want to bet that existing teams in the youth HP system are given priority?

You are talking about youth leagues right? The BC version of Ontario's OPDL? Is it really geography based and capped at 8 teams? That doesn't really jive with Jason DeVos' vision of not turning away players. Seems to me the idea of these high performance leagues is that they should be standards based. So if two teams that are in close proximity both meet the standards, they should both be in the league. If the league grows enough to have too many teams for one division, I would argue you should split them based on geography, rather than promotion and relegation, since we don't want to be prioritizing results in games between 13 year olds.

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1 minute ago, Kent said:

You are talking about youth leagues right? The BC version of Ontario's OPDL? Is it really geography based and capped at 8 teams? That doesn't really jive with Jason DeVos' vision of not turning away players. Seems to me the idea of these high performance leagues is that they should be standards based. So if two teams that are in close proximity both meet the standards, they should both be in the league. If the league grows enough to have too many teams for one division, I would argue you should split them based on geography, rather than promotion and relegation, since we don't want to be prioritizing results in games between 13 year olds.

I hundred percent agree with you but it is not done that way, it is very judiciously spread out. So TSS is probably using their PDL project to get higher profile as their kids cannot compete vs. HP teams, they were not accepted into the clique. 

Which is a good start, but a bad way to end. True, many teams in HP are actually the alliance of up to a dozen clubs in their regional turf, all feeding into the HP. That is not so bad. But you cannot have eager private academies waiting on the wings, doing better even, and not competing with the others. You end up with a hypothetical HP league and hypothetical academies, and there is no proof anyone is doing things well enough to deserve be called the best.

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48 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I hundred percent agree with you but it is not done that way, it is very judiciously spread out. So TSS is probably using their PDL project to get higher profile as their kids cannot compete vs. HP teams, they were not accepted into the clique. 

Which is a good start, but a bad way to end. True, many teams in HP are actually the alliance of up to a dozen clubs in their regional turf, all feeding into the HP. That is not so bad. But you cannot have eager private academies waiting on the wings, doing better even, and not competing with the others. You end up with a hypothetical HP league and hypothetical academies, and there is no proof anyone is doing things well enough to deserve be called the best.

I guess that sounds similar to Ontario's (ridiculous) separation of SAAC and OPDL clubs, which is a pretty serious problem in my opinion.

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23 minutes ago, Kent said:

I guess that sounds similar to Ontario's (ridiculous) separation of SAAC and OPDL clubs, which is a pretty serious problem in my opinion.

How many people on this board have played, or their kids played, in a promotion battle or a relegation fight?

I think most simply don't get it. I am not talking about fans teams you support; I am talking about you, or family. What it does for competitive edge is amazing, you see teams dominating being whipped and weak teams coming together and you get real miracles.

My kid had an amazing last day of the season playing his last year u-16 trying to keep his team up in a higher division, because that way the kids who were coming after him could also play a higher competitive level too. But those last weeks of the season were incredibly intense, great intensity. 

YOu cannot tell me an HP league designed as a monopolistic protectorate is going to have that edge.

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12 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

How many people on this board have played, or their kids played, in a promotion battle or a relegation fight?

I think most simply don't get it. I am not talking about fans teams you support; I am talking about you, or family. What it does for competitive edge is amazing, you see teams dominating being whipped and weak teams coming together and you get real miracles.

My kid had an amazing last day of the season playing his last year u-16 trying to keep his team up in a higher division, because that way the kids who were coming after him could also play a higher competitive level too. But those last weeks of the season were incredibly intense, great intensity. 

YOu cannot tell me an HP league designed as a monopolistic protectorate is going to have that edge.

Was your kid playing in Spain? I thought they don't have promotion/relegation for youth soccer in Spain. Or maybe it kicks in at a later stage than it does in parts of Canada (or used to in parts of Canada?).

I thought the concern, at least at the younger age groups is that making things too results focused will encourage things like telling defenders to "just boot it" and playing long balls in front of the fastest guy on the team so he can go in and score. Those tactics can work really well for kids, but as they get older, it becomes less and less effective. When the results are a bit less important you can take the time to teach your defenders how to control the ball, and pass it out from the back, or teach teams how to unlock the other team's defence.

P.S. The OPDL vs SAAC thing I mentioned isn't about promotion and relegation, it's about two high performance leagues, side by side, not allowed to play with each other. The result is confusion for what is the true highest level, so it's hard/impossible to know where a kid with a lot of potential should play.

Edited by Kent

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9 minutes ago, Kent said:

Was your kid playing in Spain? I thought they don't have promotion/relegation for youth soccer in Spain. Or maybe it kicks in at a later stage than it does in parts of Canada (or used to in parts of Canada?).

I thought the concern, at least at the younger age groups is that making things too results focused will encourage things like telling defenders to "just boot it" and playing long balls in front of the fastest guy on the team so he can go in and score. Those tactics can work really well for kids, but as they get older, it becomes less and less effective. When the results are a bit less important you can take the time to teach your defenders how to control the ball, and pass it out from the back, or teach teams how to unlock the other team's defence.

No, not correct at all. Spain in boys, girls, futsal, has divisions with promotion and relegation starting at u-10, and maybe some places u-8. It is totally tiered and very competitive. I am talking about federated competition, not schools, where there are massive leagues in futsal for example and where a lot of kids come out of, non-tiered school futsal.

The whole long ball question you are citing, well I have never seen it, since the top teams play better, always. And the good kids dribble, pass and like to have the ball, always. One factor is that most Spain is 7 a side until age 12 or so, meaning shorter pitch, less running, offside line at the top of the box, need to be precise passing in short spaces. And easy to defend deep vs. speed.

There's an MLS player who came through my kid's club, Ilie Sánchez at Sporting KC.

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30 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

No, not correct at all. Spain in boys, girls, futsal, has divisions with promotion and relegation starting at u-10, and maybe some places u-8. It is totally tiered and very competitive. I am talking about federated competition, not schools, where there are massive leagues in futsal for example and where a lot of kids come out of, non-tiered school futsal.

The whole long ball question you are citing, well I have never seen it, since the top teams play better, always. And the good kids dribble, pass and like to have the ball, always. One factor is that most Spain is 7 a side until age 12 or so, meaning shorter pitch, less running, offside line at the top of the box, need to be precise passing in short spaces. And easy to defend deep vs. speed.

There's an MLS player who came through my kid's club, Ilie Sánchez at Sporting KC.

OK, interesting. Thanks for the info!

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17 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

 It would be much better to have two divisions, install promo-relegation, and let them fight it out for the top flight. Otherwise, with only 8 teams, some good ones who deserve to be there are going to be left out.

It would be neat to see a second division to force teams to strive to keep up, but a big part of this is forming a league where they can enforce particular standards. In any multiple tier system I think a chance for promotion should be contingent on spending to meet the standards set for the top-level league. 

Might be a but kitschy to end up denying promotion due to a club not spending X amount of money on coaching or whatever, but it'd be the best way to open it up while still ensuring that the whole point of a standards based development league isn't lost 

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17 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Which is why it is stupid to have a closed franchise one division system. It would be much better to have two divisions, install promo-relegation, and let them fight it out for the top flight. Otherwise, with only 8 teams, some good ones who deserve to be there are going to be left out. 

From the recent moves made by BC Soccer, I have a feeling that this is starting to change. They've recently begun implementing a 3-tier Soccer Club Charter program. Each tier is supposed to increase the requirements for technical & administrative capabilities. For the HP teams, I think they were initially developed without these sort of requirements in place, and they've worked their way up to that level of training. Yes, the recent suit that TSS lost against BC Soccer re: HP team, doesn't look great for TSS, but with the implementation of the new club charter system, it may help ensure that clubs can hit the background required (level 3), before they open up HP to allow more entrants.

From the look of the technical & operational documents for BCRT3, we can relatively safely assume that Club Charter lvl 3 is going to be either on-par or a step below BCRT3's level. If these things are being developed in tandem, it may be the first few steps toward opening up the system and helping to create some form of pro-rel, with the solid assurance that a club has the background to be able to handle a shift in division. I doubt it'll be HP to BCRT3 or reverse, but we may see some divisions created within the HP leagues to help encourage clubs to obtain the Level-3 Club Charter as it is rolled out.

Geographical separation was good for making sure it was a Vancouver-only league, but things have been rolling forward, and I think they're making the moves to open it up a little further as the back-end of clubs develop.

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2 hours ago, Rintaran said:

From the recent moves made by BC Soccer, I have a feeling that this is starting to change. They've recently begun implementing a 3-tier Soccer Club Charter program. Each tier is supposed to increase the requirements for technical & administrative capabilities. For the HP teams, I think they were initially developed without these sort of requirements in place, and they've worked their way up to that level of training. Yes, the recent suit that TSS lost against BC Soccer re: HP team, doesn't look great for TSS, but with the implementation of the new club charter system, it may help ensure that clubs can hit the background required (level 3), before they open up HP to allow more entrants.

From the look of the technical & operational documents for BCRT3, we can relatively safely assume that Club Charter lvl 3 is going to be either on-par or a step below BCRT3's level. If these things are being developed in tandem, it may be the first few steps toward opening up the system and helping to create some form of pro-rel, with the solid assurance that a club has the background to be able to handle a shift in division. I doubt it'll be HP to BCRT3 or reverse, but we may see some divisions created within the HP leagues to help encourage clubs to obtain the Level-3 Club Charter as it is rolled out.

Geographical separation was good for making sure it was a Vancouver-only league, but things have been rolling forward, and I think they're making the moves to open it up a little further as the back-end of clubs develop.

I had no idea that TSS sued BC Soccer, I just added up what I saw: they are not in the HP system, and they announce a PDL team with their name on it, to promote themselves. But I am not surprised at all.

What you are saying is fine, technical and operational documents, fulfilling Charters. But once you have the minimum standards in place it is ********, sorry to say. The idea that a club fulfills requirements in coaching or facilities, that is great: it is standard in Europe for higher divisions to require higher coaching accreditation, for example. So fine, but it means nothing for development, it is what some typically qualified Canadian bureacrat can make up, and it's garbage. 

Proof is in reality, not on paper. In youth the world over, in a tiered system, every year there are teams that should hypothetically be superior, staying in higher divisions, and teams coming from nowhere, barebones, beating their asses. Not these clubs sitting all high and mighty with a "we are HP" sign in front of the clubhouse. Screw that. You are HP as long as you are HP, and when you are not, take the sign down.

I am not saying that in the BC HP system, there are not clubs doing better and winning more. And others getting poorer results and striving to improve, for sure that is happening. But they are never threatened by below. And that makes things fat-ass.

In football, as in all sports, the modest can rise because the club, coaches, and players, put it all together and made it happen. I am not talking about money, quite the contrary, I am talking about pure meritocracy. You do things better, you get results, you are rewarded for it. In all ways: coaches that have success get recruited, as do players, club coordinators. This also means something else: clubs keep fees lower to attract players, to not dissuade them economically.

So pro-releg affects you in lots of ways, you want to succeed, your rivals to fail. My kid plays for my neignbourhood team, and when they go play the biggest club in the ward, with a way stronger youth system and a fifth tier senior side, it is all out war, they want to take points off them so they don't promote, even if we won't.  And it is fun as hell.

If we think in Canada we can establish a system bureaucratically to have a stronger youth football system, we are mistaken. We can help, we can set up models, we can encourage technical development, coaching, reffing, facilities. But there has to be reward for success, otherwise we are living out an illusion. 

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2 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

It would be neat to see a second division to force teams to strive to keep up, but a big part of this is forming a league where they can enforce particular standards. In any multiple tier system I think a chance for promotion should be contingent on spending to meet the standards set for the top-level league. 

Might be a but kitschy to end up denying promotion due to a club not spending X amount of money on coaching or whatever, but it'd be the best way to open it up while still ensuring that the whole point of a standards based development league isn't lost 

CH, promotion should NEVER be contingent on spending, that is frankly shocking you'd come up with that.

Promotion should be contingent on competiting better than your rivals. Then, when you do it, sure, fulfil the requirements at the higher level. Which should not necessarily be more costly, as that would be dumb: punish whole groups of families financially because their kids play well  together.

What you are suggesting is not kitschy, it is the formula for soccer failure, it is plain stupid. How in the world can you argue that standards are not related to playing the game successfully? We have just an ass-backward way of thinking this through in Canada it is amazing, we assume that if a club is successful it is because they did something nasty, it is so puritanically-minded and retrograde. Hey, those kids won: get out the whips and teach them to flagellate themselves.

 

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Just want to say, calmly. If some clubs do not want to play the competitive game, let them play on a house or relaxed level, and let anyone play, and be inclusive, I am all for it. Let it be cheap and enjoyable, but do have some minimum coaching sense, so they learn properly some basic skills and see how they work. 

Thing is, we don't have to argue for this in Canada. 90% of our system if infested by it, house leagues are the dictatorship of Canadian soccer. Real competitive is the maverick position that needs promoting and not be under the stick of the house-advocates.

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