2017 Gold Cup

[Vince193]

56 minutes ago, canta15 said:

No they won't?

They did in 2013 and before. They probably will again. The GC before the WC is always the less important one.

[jpg75]

1 hour ago, Vince193 said:

The GC before the WC is always the less important one.

This. The teams in the Hex will more than likely bring a lot of filler to this tournament.

[SuperCanuck]

On 19/12/2016 at 4:25 PM, matty said:

The difference between the nations involved in IIHF and CONCACAF and what's needed to host each is pretty massive.

IIHF uses 2-3 arenas 8000~ in (mostly) developed nations for its top level tournaments.

Gold Cup needs likely 6 minimum stadiums that can seat at least 20000~ and, outside of Canada, The US, most are still developing nations with a great number of issues that would make hosting tournaments as large as the Gold Cup near impossible. With the exception of Mexico, none of the still developing CONCACAF nations has either the money or infrastructure to hold a top level tournament at the current time. It's best if they stick to smaller tournaments like the U20 Cups for until they're able to host something larger.

Canada, US and Mexico.  If the USA wants to host a tournament every year, fine.  Call it the We're in charge of Everything Cup and they can host away to their heart's content.  A continental tournament should be hosted by as many countries as can manage it.  Mexico can, and I'm sure we could too.

[SuperCanuck]

On 19/12/2016 at 5:58 PM, Soccerpro said:

Why would Concacf move the tournament from the U.S? That's where it makes all the money. It will never be moved, ever.

We always suck in this tournament, as it's a reflection of our national team. I don't see us doing any better next year. As least Floro won't be there.

OK, fine.  I give up.  Everyone but me here thinks the US hosting the Gold Cup every year is a terrific idea.  

We won thing once and another time it was a linesman that sucked, not our team.

[Gordon]

9 minutes ago, SuperCanuck said:

OK, fine.  I give up.  Everyone but me here thinks the US hosting the Gold Cup every year is a terrific idea.  

We won thing once and another time it was a linesman that sucked, not our team.

You are not alone, it is ridiculous. It is a legacy of a fundamentally and blatantly corrupt era of CONCACAF. It's continued practice is indicative of what a truly Mickey Mouse confederation we are. 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, SuperCanuck said:

OK, fine.  I give up.  Everyone but me here thinks the US hosting the Gold Cup every year is a terrific idea.  

We won thing once and another time it was a linesman that sucked, not our team.

Even i got pissed off when the USA wanted to scrap the Copa America just to host a Concacaf-Comnebol tournament every 4 years in the USA instead

[matty]

35 minutes ago, SuperCanuck said:

OK, fine.  I give up.  Everyone but me here thinks the US hosting the Gold Cup every year is a terrific idea....

Ummmm I agreed with you and I think most do. @Soccerpro was merely pointing out that it's unlikely to leave the US unless CONCACAF wants it to despite both Canada and Mexico being able to host it.

[Complete Homer]

I think USA hosting is a calculated sacrifice by the smaller associations. Montagliani promised higher % of revenue to leave in the form of transfers to smaller associations. Perhaps the price of that is ensuring revenue remains high... by frequently hosting the tournament in the most profitable location. 

I would like to see Canada host too, and I don't like bending over for Americans either, but more money to feed our program is a good thing. Hopefully the benefits are higher than hosting the gold cup once in a blue moon 

[Blackdude]

Could we make as much money as the US hosting a Gold Cup? No. That's why the Gold Cup is always in the US. They know that 55K Mexicans will show up at NFL stadiums and pay more money than in Mexico, so it's good for CONCACAF.  Money talks and fact is that sponsors need it to be in the US and I don't blame them. CONCACAF knows that the best way to make money. It's all about money and that's why it was always there. The Gold Cup came here and had the second worst attendance in the tournament after the third place match (which had the US surprisingly) Even if we made a bid, people would say you can't even sell out your stadium in the one Gold Cup match that happened here. 

The Gold Cup is CONCACAF's cash cow and moving it to Canada, would be a bad idea buisness wise no matter what. Unless Corporate Canada gives a lot more money to host it here, it's not happening.

[Kent]

I just think it's short sighted to have the US host it every year. I had the same thought as SuperCanuck that this tournament should be called something like the "US Invitational" or something.

This year is a great example of how bad an idea this is, and how much it helps the USA. This years tournament has several prospective MLS cities hosting games. Lots of people are rightly suggesting this is to see what kind of soccer interest can be generated in those markets. Just imagine, if this tournament was our little plaything instead of the USA, we could have every prospective CPL city hosting games and see how that turns out. We could see which cities would be candidates for hosting our national team. American soccer support has grown a lot since they started hosting this tournament every 2 years. Why do they get that kind of a monopoly on growth?

And if this tournament makes soooo much money for CONCACAF (I've yet to read that article was linked, but I will do so) then why do we have to pinch pennies when picking a head coach? Why can't any of these teams in our confederation afford to travel up to Canada for friendlies? We seem like a poor confederation with the tournament the way it is, so I'm not sure what the negative side effects would be if the USA didn't host it every 2 years.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

I just think it's short sighted to have the US host it every year. I had the same thought as SuperCanuck that this tournament should be called something like the "US Invitational" or something.

This year is a great example of how bad an idea this is, and how much it helps the USA. This years tournament has several prospective MLS cities hosting games. Lots of people are rightly suggesting this is to see what kind of soccer interest can be generated in those markets. Just imagine, if this tournament was our little plaything instead of the USA, we could have every prospective CPL city hosting games and see how that turns out. We could see which cities would be candidates for hosting our national team. American soccer support has grown a lot since they started hosting this tournament every 2 years. Why do they get that kind of a monopoly on growth?

And if this tournament makes soooo much money for CONCACAF (I've yet to read that article was linked, but I will do so) then why do we have to pinch pennies when picking a head coach? Why can't any of these teams in our confederation afford to travel up to Canada for friendlies? We seem like a poor confederation with the tournament the way it is, so I'm not sure what the negative side effects would be if the USA didn't host it every 2 years.

One of the most dodgy things I witnessed in CONCACAF happened after the crooks were supposedly all gone and yet nobody talks about it.  Just days before Montagliani was elected, the interim secretary general of CONCACAF signed away future CCL and Gold Cup promotional rights to Soccer United Marketing (owned by MLS).  These were the rights previously controlled by Traffic Sports through Aaron Davidson's bribery.  It's scandalous that an unelected caretaker executive is signing away rights to CONCACAF's most important properties in his final days on the job before the cleanup crew has arrived. 

The crux of it is that with Soccer United Marketing as the promoter, MLS has a clear conflict of interest.  Not only will the tournament be used to maximize revenue but also to test out potential MLS markets for their own research.

 

   

[Kent]

On 19/12/2016 at 2:42 PM, CanadianSoccerFan said:

This rare leak of CONCACAF's financials shows just how financially dependent they are on this tournament.  Unless the lucrative Pan-Am Copa tournament can be created, I wouldn't hold your breath for the Gold Cup moving to a 4 year cycle, let alone moved around the confederation.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2016/12/08/concacaf-calls-feds-football-ones-pass-2015-accounting-honeypot/

I just finished reading that article. I'm not familiar with the writer, but he seems to be looking at this from a Caribbean point of view. Here's a quote that echos one of my thoughts.

"So the question then becomes, where did that $100 million go?

It certainly didn’t make its way to its national federations, most of whom live in poverty and on promises of good times to come; the kind of wage slavery the Caribbean in particular has become used to from its North American neighbours."

The article makes it look like there could very well be corruption still going on, costing the region money (two times over, the cost of having the money stolen, and the cost of lawyers to keep people out of prison), and the expenses for the Gold Cup are actually quite large too ($24.8 million, though it is profitable). Surely having, say, 4 to 6 host venues instead of 13 or whatever it is would reduce costs of the tournament, and possibly raise the level of play as well by reducing travel.

[Bison44]

Why are we all so surprised at this.  USA controls the tourney, CONCACAF goes along for the money.  Of course MLS (and to a greater extent the general US soccer culture) use the tourney to drum up support and interest.  Why not?? Look at the USL, look at the soccer hot spots popping up all over the USA.  Cinncinati breaking attendance records, the USL league expanding every year. Minnesota, LA with MLS expansion teams.  I only wish we had this kind of support , both fan and corporate for soccer in canada.  Look at the sites this Gold cup go round, Nashville, San antonio, tampa, phoneix etc.  They are using the US economic clout and growing grassroots interest to grow the sport in their country.  

I hope the CPL boys are watching and learning something.  Soccer can be a butt in the seat, money maker in north america.  Too bad we didnt have a game in Vancouver or Montreal like we did in toronto last time.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

I just finished reading that article. I'm not familiar with the writer, but he seems to be looking at this from a Caribbean point of view. Here's a quote that echos one of my thoughts.

"So the question then becomes, where did that $100 million go?

It certainly didn’t make its way to its national federations, most of whom live in poverty and on promises of good times to come; the kind of wage slavery the Caribbean in particular has become used to from its North American neighbours."

The article makes it look like there could very well be corruption still going on, costing the region money (two times over, the cost of having the money stolen, and the cost of lawyers to keep people out of prison), and the expenses for the Gold Cup are actually quite large too ($24.8 million, though it is profitable). Surely having, say, 4 to 6 host venues instead of 13 or whatever it is would reduce costs of the tournament, and possibly raise the level of play as well by reducing travel.

To be fair, these were only the 2015 financials which was ground zero of the scandal.  The new regime only began in May of 2016.

As for the writer, I've read a lot of his work on InsideWorldFootball.com and while he has a lot of inside info on CONCACAF he has this misplaced populist naivete.  He thinks Montagliani is Infantino's sock puppet to suppress the Caribbean who've supposedly been exploited by the big bad countries of North America.  The irony of the last two CONCACAF presidents/thieves being Caribbean is clearly lost on him.  He also doesn't seem to realize that another corrupt despot from the Caribbean like Gordon Derrick could've meant the end of CONCACAF altogether at the hands of the FBI.  Montagliani even mentioned this scenario without naming Derrick directly.

 

 

 

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Why are we all so surprised at this.

Not surprised, just sick of it. This edition was likely too late to enact change, but my hope was that Montagliani could take steps to clean up this mess. I'd love for him to clean up the Gold Cup and the Champions League, but I'm not sure if he will bother, or be able, to do that.

[Keegan]

5 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

One of the most dodgy things I witnessed in CONCACAF happened after the crooks were supposedly all gone and yet nobody talks about it.  Just days before Montagliani was elected, the interim secretary general of CONCACAF signed away future CCL and Gold Cup promotional rights to Soccer United Marketing (owned by MLS).  These were the rights previously controlled by Traffic Sports through Aaron Davidson's bribery.  It's scandalous that an unelected caretaker executive is signing away rights to CONCACAF's most important properties in his final days on the job before the cleanup crew has arrived. 

The crux of it is that with Soccer United Marketing as the promoter, MLS has a clear conflict of interest.  Not only will the tournament be used to maximize revenue but also to test out potential MLS markets for their own research.

 

   

 

Interesting.  I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that may be illegal and should be rescinded.  

http://www.maitlandchambers.com/information/recent-cases/lee-panavision-ltd-v-lee-lighting-ltd-1991

"It was unconstitutional for the directors,knowing the shareholders intended to remove them as soon as possible, to commit the company to a second management agreement with plaintiffs."

"Directors cannot perpetuate their or their friends' control of the company. Nominee directors about to be removed,seeking to commit company to a management agreement"

Unless of course the member associations were completely fine with the rights going to SUM.  In which case this is all just a giant witch hunt and nothing has changed.  

 

Also, what a joke it is that we are even having arguments that no other CONCACAF nation but the USA can host.  It's corruption, plain and simple.  The purpose of the confederation is to promote the game in the region and act in the interests of it's shareholders.  

Are we really supposed to believe that countries like Angola or Equatorial Guinea can host the African Nations and Canada or Mexico can't host the Gold Cup?  It's a joke and no one is challenging the corruption.  (Surely those bids were won through corruption as well, but I'm making a point on infrastructure)

Costa Rica has 3 stadiums that could host Gold Cup matches.  Honduras has at least 3.  Panama has 3.  El Salvador has 2.  

That is 11 stadiums between 4 nations that consistently qualify for this tournament.  

How about an El Salvador/Honduras hosted tournament?  6 stadiums... Attendance would obviously fall short of past tournaments but you would cut down on travel costs and probably see some of the best football the tournament has seen.  USA and Mexico have no trouble rolling past those two teams in "home" matches... anyone could tell you that, but imagine them down there?  They might not make it out of the group.  

It would help us so much for WCQ to get the team out of the USA.  We are pretty much playing glorified friendlies.  

[matty]

5 hours ago, Keegan said:

Costa Rica has 3 stadiums that could host Gold Cup matches.  Honduras has at least 3.  Panama has 3.  El Salvador has 2.  

That is 11 stadiums between 4 nations that consistently qualify for this tournament.  

It's about more than stadiums. Yes CONCACAF want themselves some money (hence why it's always in America) but there are reasons why it will not be in El Salvador or Honduras for a long time that are not exactly related to fully related to making money.

The security needed would be INSANE and unlike Brazil in 2014 they don't have the money to keep it safe for both teams and visitors. You think players are going to be happy spending upwards of four weeks looked away in a hotel with the exception of travelling to and from training and games? 

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/honduras-travel-warning.html

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/el-salvador-travel-warning.html

[SuperCanuck]

On 20/12/2016 at 7:36 PM, Gordon said:

You are not alone, it is ridiculous. It is a legacy of a fundamentally and blatantly corrupt era of CONCACAF. It's continued practice is indicative of what a truly Mickey Mouse confederation we are. 

Thank you.  When I've expressed my opinion about this in the past on this board, I've been met with anything from indifference to hostility.  

[SuperCanuck]

On 20/12/2016 at 8:15 PM, Complete Homer said:

I think USA hosting is a calculated sacrifice by the smaller associations. Montagliani promised higher % of revenue to leave in the form of transfers to smaller associations. Perhaps the price of that is ensuring revenue remains high... by frequently hosting the tournament in the most profitable location. 

I would like to see Canada host too, and I don't like bending over for Americans either, but more money to feed our program is a good thing. Hopefully the benefits are higher than hosting the gold cup once in a blue moon 

So we profit more by not hosting a tournament.  

[SuperCanuck]

On 20/12/2016 at 9:05 PM, Blackdude said:

Could we make as much money as the US hosting a Gold Cup? No. That's why the Gold Cup is always in the US. They know that 55K Mexicans will show up at NFL stadiums and pay more money than in Mexico, so it's good for CONCACAF.  Money talks and fact is that sponsors need it to be in the US and I don't blame them. CONCACAF knows that the best way to make money. It's all about money and that's why it was always there. The Gold Cup came here and had the second worst attendance in the tournament after the third place match (which had the US surprisingly) Even if we made a bid, people would say you can't even sell out your stadium in the one Gold Cup match that happened here. 

The Gold Cup is CONCACAF's cash cow and moving it to Canada, would be a bad idea buisness wise no matter what. Unless Corporate Canada gives a lot more money to host it here, it's not happening.

CONCACRAP makes more money, and the money goes where?  I understand that sport is less and less sport these days and more of a business, especially in this part of the world, but that doesn't make it right.  

[SuperCanuck]

13 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Why are we all so surprised at this.  USA controls the tourney, CONCACAF goes along for the money.  Of course MLS (and to a greater extent the general US soccer culture) use the tourney to drum up support and interest.  Why not?? Look at the USL, look at the soccer hot spots popping up all over the USA.  Cinncinati breaking attendance records, the USL league expanding every year. Minnesota, LA with MLS expansion teams.  I only wish we had this kind of support , both fan and corporate for soccer in canada.  Look at the sites this Gold cup go round, Nashville, San antonio, tampa, phoneix etc.  They are using the US economic clout and growing grassroots interest to grow the sport in their country.  

I hope the CPL boys are watching and learning something.  Soccer can be a butt in the seat, money maker in north america.  Too bad we didnt have a game in Vancouver or Montreal like we did in toronto last time.

Yes, why not be a bunch of greedy, corrupt wankers?  It's what they do best, after all.

If it's a true continental tournament, it does NOT belong to the US.

[matty]

6 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Why?

I think you could comfortably play a 12 team Gold Cup in 3 stadiums, using the 3 groups of 4 format.

On paper you should be able to but it's unlikely because it's scale would be deemed too small by the confederation. Also you may totally kill the pitches with the amount of play they would see in such a short period.

Another factor against Central America and the Caribbean (and even Mexico to some degree) is heat and rain. In Jamaica you're looking at averages around 33 degrees (a bit more than most southern states) while most of Central America is in the middle of their rain season and thunder storms occur down there upwards of 50% of the time. When not raining in Central America temperatures are similar to Jamaica.

[Free kick]

On 12/19/2016 at 5:26 PM, SuperCanuck said:

2.  Becomes a true continental championship hosted by someone other than the US, and is every four years if possible.

For that to happen, there would have to be a desire by someone, other than the US, to host the whole thing.  Has there been such sentiment expressed by anyone else in Concacaf?.  Not to my knowledge.  The US is the only country in Concacaf (due to its ethnic makeup) where there will be someone willing to pay money to buy a ticket to watch a match involving (say) Haiti versus Canada.  How many tickets would that sell if such match were played in Costa Rica?   My guess is close to zero. 

In Europe, its the traveling support that makes neutral venue hosted games economically viable.  Europe has a different geography, it is a densely packed continent where by you can pass 2-3 countries in a three hour drive or train trip.  Thats Not North America.  Thats why the rotating hosts in Europe is possble but in Concacaf this is only a pipe dream.  I like the direction that they are heading with group stages assigned to different countries.  Thats the best you can do in my opinion. 

I concur entirely with going to a four year cycle. 

[Kent]

So now USA is hosting because it's too hot and murderous in other countries? The homicide rate in the USA is triple what it is in Canada, so shouldn't we host it every single time? It's too hot in Jamaica (Kingston July avg high 30C) and Central America (Tegucigalpa Honduras - 27.8C, San Jose Costa Rica 28.2C, Panama City 33.9, Guatemala City 25.4C, San Salvador El Salvador 30.1C, Managua Nicaragua 30.9C), so instead we play games in Nashville (31.8C), Houston (34.3C), Tampa (32.3C), Frisco (30C), San Antonio (34.8C), Arlington (34.5C), Pasadena (31.7C), and Glendale (really really hot, wikipedia said over 40C so I didn't believe it, found another source that said 36.7C). This doesn't seem to be adding up to me. People that believe USA should host it every time out have just bought their BS.

Source for Canada vs USA murder rates:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Sources for average July temperatures:
http://www.holiday-weather.com/kingston/averages/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegucigalpa#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_José,_Costa_Rica#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_City#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_City#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Salvador#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managua#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville,_Tennessee#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa,_Florida#Climate
http://www.areavibes.com/frisco-tx/weather/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Antonio#Climate_and_vegetation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlington,_Texas#Climate
http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/pasadena/california/united-states/usca0840
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glendale,_Arizona#Climate
http://www.areavibes.com/glendale-az/weather/

[matty]

24 minutes ago, Kent said:

So now USA is hosting because it's too hot and murderous in other countries? The homicide rate in the USA is triple what it is in Canada, so shouldn't we host it every single time? It's too hot in Jamaica (Kingston July avg high 30C) and Central America (Tegucigalpa Honduras - 27.8C, San Jose Costa Rica 28.2C, Panama City 33.9, Guatemala City 25.4C, San Salvador El Salvador 30.1C, Managua Nicaragua 30.9C), so instead we play games in Nashville (31.8C), Houston (34.3C), Tampa (32.3C), Frisco (30C), San Antonio (34.8C), Arlington (34.5C), Pasadena (31.7C), and Glendale (really really hot, wikipedia said over 40C so I didn't believe it, found another source that said 36.7C). This doesn't seem to be adding up to me. People that believe USA should host it every time out have just bought their BS.

Source for Canada vs USA murder rates:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Sources for average July temperatures:
http://www.holiday-weather.com/kingston/averages/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegucigalpa#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_José,_Costa_Rica#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_City#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_City#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Salvador#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managua#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville,_Tennessee#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa,_Florida#Climate
http://www.areavibes.com/frisco-tx/weather/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Antonio#Climate_and_vegetation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlington,_Texas#Climate
http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/pasadena/california/united-states/usca0840
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glendale,_Arizona#Climate
http://www.areavibes.com/glendale-az/weather/

Weather: i noted that Jamaica was for the most part a degree over much of tje southern states. naturally there are expections. Nice of you to ignore rain and lightning in central America.

Crime: the us may be higher than canada but el Salvador and honduras are arguably the murder capitals of the world. The US is also able to afford the cup.

No one is saying the us should host every gold cup (canada and mexico should be involved and maybe costa rica and panama depending on circumstances) but expecting poorer nations  (like el salvador and honduras) with extreme crime rates and harsh conditions to even be willing to host a major tournament like the gold cup with their limited resources is asinine.