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Cyle Larin


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53 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Playing in second divisions is not where young talent develops.  Unless you want to develop talent for the second divisions

If that were true most of the players in 1st divisions now would be still playing in 2nd divisions. Ideally a player needs to go to the highest level that he can have a reasonable chance of getting playing time in the not too distant future. If someone is not yet ready for a top 1st division there is nothing wrong with going to a second division or a lower level 1st division and improving there until they are ready to go to a higher level. That is a much better strategy than sitting on the bench at a better team and never getting any playing time. Never getting any playing time at a club that is too high level for you is a good way to ruin your career and possibly not even get a chance to be a good 2nd division player. Players have to take chances sometimes and aim for a high level but at the same time they need to be honest about their current abilities and their chance of playing time in order not to waste time in a short career hanging out but not playing at a top team.

Edited by Grizzly
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8 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Having a big club on his resume can help give him chances in the future. Sort of like being a 1st round pick in the NHL.. just having that past pedigree has meaning. 

Go to the biggest club and if he can't hack it, head to the Championship or a smaller Euro league..

And when he hasn’t developed by riding the bench. He’ll go to a “shite” club and shite the bed

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3 hours ago, Grizzly said:

If that were true most of the players in 1st divisions now would be still playing in 2nd divisions. Ideally a player needs to go to the highest level that he can have a reasonable chance of getting playing time in the not too distant future. If someone is not yet ready for a top 1st division there is nothing wrong with going to a second division or a lower level 1st division and improving there until they are ready to go to a higher level. That is a much better strategy than sitting on the bench at a better team and never getting any playing time. Never getting any playing time at a club that is too high level for you is a good way to ruin your career and possibly not even get a chance to be a good 2nd division player. Players have to take chances sometimes and aim for a high level but at the same time they need to be honest about their current abilities and their chance of playing time in order not to waste time in a short career hanging out but not playing at a top team.

Thank you 

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14 hours ago, Club Linesman said:

Let's just hope that wherever he ends up that he gets some significant playing time in a league that is above the quality of MLS.  In the end it can only help him and the CMNT.  Unless he goes and completely flops, at which point the CMNT can focus on AJH and Cavallini.  I figured for the past few years he would be the saviour for our team but pretty soon he will need to demonstrate his skill wearing our red and this proposed move to Europe will either turn him into the striker we need or allow us to focus on the other two guys up front.

This. Playing time is key. A level that is higher than MLS, but not so significant that he will rot on the bench.

Personally, I would love to see him in the Eredivisie, the Belgian First Division, or with a top Championship side (Cardiff would be a great move, IMO). 

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16 hours ago, matty said:

If he flops in a good European league, the CMNT will not drop him. This constant idea that he's done because of AJH and Cavallini is really getting old. The CMNT will go to who produces when needed and so far it's hard to say any of them can claim that other Larin, who is currently out of form with the MNT but still seems to interest big clubs and reportedly has the confidence of Hutch to the point Hutch is pitching him hard in Turkey.

We've got option which is great but the idea we're going to dump one of them because he didn't make it in Europe is idiotic.

In fairness, most posts I have read aren't suggesting he never get called or that we write him off forever.  For my part, I am simply saying that he is not currently our number striker based on what I have seen recently.  Quality depth at all positions is the goal, not riding the shiniest pony until it drops dead.

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14 hours ago, Grizzly said:

If that were true most of the players in 1st divisions now would be still playing in 2nd divisions. Ideally a player needs to go to the highest level that he can have a reasonable chance of getting playing time in the not too distant future. If someone is not yet ready for a top 1st division there is nothing wrong with going to a second division or a lower level 1st division and improving there until they are ready to go to a higher level. That is a much better strategy than sitting on the bench at a better team and never getting any playing time. Never getting any playing time at a club that is too high level for you is a good way to ruin your career and possibly not even get a chance to be a good 2nd division player. Players have to take chances sometimes and aim for a high level but at the same time they need to be honest about their current abilities and their chance of playing time in order not to waste time in a short career hanging out but not playing at a top team.

Several years, i checked this.  At a time when a similar discussion arose.   I checked mostly plyer movement of players in europe. Mostly England, because thats where most of the info is available to us and easier to read.  One thing that i found was that, amongst pages upon pages of off-season player movement and transfers, there was only one or maybe two player in total that moved from a second division club to a first division club.  We all have seen what happens to rosters of second div clubs who get promoted,  they get turned over as much as 80%.  We have seen this happen countless times to Canadian players over the years, even to players like Peschisolido who was very instrumental to his club’s promotion; they get dropped by their club upon promotion.   Someone will mention the case of Simeon Jackson,  but these are the very rare excecptions and even he, saw his playing time drop to the point of bench warmer when his club went up.  

I didnt check with the same depth the other leagues in europe, but from what i saw and know, it looks pretty similar.  Players move or progess from first division clubs to other first div clubs. Or, from first div clubs in one country to first division clubs in another country.  The well known talents in the game at the international level for major established national sides all came through the club system of of first division sides. Yes, occasional a young players who is not ready, will get loaned out for a spell in a lower division.   AND YES, I AM SURE that someone will respond with an example of a playr or two that is an exception to what i am saying.  There will always be exceptions. But bottom line when you play in the second division. You will mostly stay there. 

so whats wrong if one one of our starting NT talents goes to a second div. club?  Nothing  wrong with that, if earning a living is what is importent to a player.  But the game is differnt in second divisions.  By this i mean in way that is consistent whether you observe anywhere in europe (serie A versus Serie B;  Prem verss Championship) or even North america (MLS versus NASL/USL). Just watch second division clubs play in cup matches in europe or even the voyageurs cup matches here.   The constant is that you see that a club like Ottawa and /or edmonton are devoid of creativity and imagination in their play and thats due an absence of elite level level tlent.  Their game and their plays are always simplified and thats coached into them and into their game plan.  If you are a talented player, you will be stiffled.  If you a goal keeper this is not problem (ps i have no issues have our NT goal keepers from sec div clubs)  and I MIGHT say the same FOR CENTRAL DEFENDERS.  

I have maintained that since 1986,  one of the reasons for our lack of success has been that the old NASL disappeared and most of our players ended up in lower divisions in europe where they didnt get to play with and against the top talent in that county because thats in the first divisions.  Sure, you can say that that is because they werent talented enough to play at a higher level.  But thats also a chicken and egg thing.  You need to suround yourself with certain players in order to improve.   We ended up at times with a national team in concacaf that really looks like second division clubs .  For example, trouble creating things in the final third of the pitch, trouble scoring, lacking in ideas, trouble scoring off of the run of play etc etc.   sometimes (over the past 30 years) when we have played Mex, we have looked like ottawa/edmonton looks like when playing an MLS side in the V cup.

Edited by Free kick
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I don't know understand why people think Larin would not do well over in Europe and he's too young and might be stuck on the bench. He's not that young, he's coming into his prime 22-23 and he destroyed MLS ( MLS is a great second division). Yes he will be going up against better defensive players and systems, but he'll have better players to get him the ball and better coaching. He's a big strong player with skill and  explosive speed. If he's on with a team that uses him  properly he should do well. Yes I am gonna armchair this, I don't think Canada uses Larin  properly, he needs help, a second striker. This is why he struggles, it has nothing to do with his skill. Its like when De Guzman came to Toronto and they tried to get him to score goals, that's not his game. 

Also training in world class  facilities and with great players, he's going to get better. Also let's say he struggles, he just comes back and dominates MLS again simple. 

 

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8 hours ago, SpecialK said:

I don't know understand why people think Larin would not do well over in Europe and he's too young and might be stuck on the bench. He's not that young, he's coming into his prime 22-23 and he destroyed MLS ( MLS is a great second division). Yes he will be going up against better defensive players and systems, but he'll have better players to get him the ball and better coaching. He's a big strong player with skill and  explosive speed. If he's on with a team that uses him  properly he should do well. Yes I am gonna armchair this, I don't think Canada uses Larin  properly, he needs help, a second striker. This is why he struggles, it has nothing to do with his skill. Its like when De Guzman came to Toronto and they tried to get him to score goals, that's not his game. 

Also training in world class  facilities and with great players, he's going to get better. Also let's say he struggles, he just comes back and dominates MLS again simple. 

 

I think it's because despite his fantastic strike rate over 3 years (43 goals in 87 games?), he has a lot of undeniable holes in his game. Look at Altidore, who puts up similar numbers but brings MUCH more to his team than Larin does. I would feel much better if Larin wasn't so predictable and didn't go invisible in matches. He is so predictable and static and struggles to create for himself in MLS, so I am not hopeful he will learn to do this in Turkey or the Championship, but I guess we will see. Interestingly, I think he looked much more dynamic when he made his debut against Colombia while still in the NCAA. Happy to see he will leave Orlando.

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15 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think it's because despite his fantastic strike rate over 3 years (43 goals in 87 games?), he has a lot of undeniable holes in his game. Look at Altidore, who puts up similar numbers but brings MUCH more to his team than Larin does. I would feel much better if Larin wasn't so predictable and didn't go invisible in matches. He is so predictable and static and struggles to create for himself in MLS, so I am not hopeful he will learn to do this in Turkey or the Championship, but I guess we will see. Interestingly, I think he looked much more dynamic when he made his debut against Colombia while still in the NCAA. Happy to see he will leave Orlando.

What you are saying does have an explanation: he has never had a quality pro coach, both at Orlando were mediocre and the team with it. On top of it, you could argue part of his strike rate was due to Kaká feeding him and opening up spaces behind him.

Mind you, it could also be argued that because the demand was lower at Orlando, he got playing time: could you imagine him at Atlanta, would he have played this year over Martínez and Almirón? At NYCFC, at Fire? I'd go a step further: take every team that did make the playoffs in MLS, and tell me where he would have started regularly. He would not have been ahead of Montero at Whitecaps even, would have competed with Morris at Seattle behind Dempsey, etc. I'd say that of 12 playoff teams, he would have been starting on maybe 3-4 maximum.

I have no doubt that if he goes somewhere where a coach works on developing him, and the demand for results, fan pressure and rivalry on the team also pushes him, he can improve. I don't find him as static or untactical as folks are saying, I've seen him move better coming back, holding up more technically, moving well to get open after laying off a ball. Positioning himself in the box. 

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14 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Look at Altidore, who puts up similar numbers but brings MUCH more to his team than Larin does.

Are you sure about that ? Altidore is a great MLS player for sure don't get me wrong, but he's got a great team supporting him. Also he's got one of the best striker in MLS playing right beside him. Yes you can when  Sebastian was not playing he still played well but Ricketts and the other strikers are pretty good too. Altidore also was pretty good in the  Netherlands, what was it ? 69 games and 39goals  

Larin has played NCAA, 3 seasons of MLS and has played for Canada since he was 18 ? If Kaka says he's ready and will do great things, I won't disagree with him haha

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38 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Mind you, it could also be argued that because the demand was lower at Orlando, he got playing time: could you imagine him at Atlanta, would he have played this year over Martínez and Almirón? At NYCFC, at Fire? I'd go a step further: take every team that did make the playoffs in MLS, and tell me where he would have started regularly. He would not have been ahead of Montero at Whitecaps even, would have competed with Morris at Seattle behind Dempsey, etc. I'd say that of 12 playoff teams, he would have been starting on maybe 3-4 maximum.

See this is what I don't get and why fans say things like this . You can't compare Larin on some of these teams because they don't play 2 strikers and the system they play is not designed for that. Also Montero and  Martinez are totally different players to Larin. If Larin was on those teams they would be playing a different style of football. 

Also are you serious with Morris and  Dempsey  over Larin ?? Morris! You must be joking ? 57 games and 15 goals in his  career, Dempsey was a great player and now he's old and losing his step 19 games and 10 goals this season. 

Edited by SpecialK
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15 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

In fairness, most posts I have read aren't suggesting he never get called or that we write him off forever.  For my part, I am simply saying that he is not currently our number striker based on what I have seen recently.  Quality depth at all positions is the goal, not riding the shiniest pony until it drops dead.

I agree most aren't saying he should be removed from the team but I'm including the idea of dropping him from starting 11 and acting like he's non-essential to camps have come up a fair bit. There are guys who have like outright said he's our #3 guy while dismissing oh so many factors.

TBH, Right now I'd say Canada doesn't have a #1 guy but there's a good chance that Larin is the closest to the spot.

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Another reason why it is important that Larin is signed by the highest level club possible has nothing to do with him.

A lot of football is about reputation.  And we all know Canada does not have a reputation for producing great footballers. If he signs with a big club, even if he doesn't catch on,, but gets loaned out a bunch and eventually leaves, that is good! It immediately raises the credibility of Canadian footballers as a whole. This can effect things like getting a work permit in Europe, or even just the way a coach looks at you when you are on trial.

Getting back to Larin, he is in a very good situation by virtue of the fact that he will be available in the January window. He is a proven goal scorer, though at lower level. I could see him as an inexpensive option for a team who is trying to avoid the drop. If he scores boat loads, then he might save your season. If he doesn't, then he is still young enough, and cheap enough that you can keep him next year, when he might develop more to help you. This is also why I don't see him going to a 2nd division side, or Turkey or anything like that. Not unless MLS/OCSC make a huge mess for him. Bigger clubs always swoop players. And I think he is an intriguing enough quantity that a bigger club who can afford to take the risk on him will sign him over a smaller club that can't.

I don't know what will happen regarding his contract with MLS/OCSC. But one thing is for certain. If money is paid for him, he could end up being the highest priced Canadian footballer of all time.

 

 

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Comparing Larin to designated players isn't really fair. I think his growth has been stunted because of the MLS. Think about all the top DPs in the league. Almost all of them have had experience playing in leagues with better defences and more competition. There is a gap in the MLS, where you can get good, but not to the level of a DP. If a player does become a DP, they typically have to go overseas and then come back, especially in the modern MLS. This is especially true for strikers. 

We all know Larin is a good poacher. He finds space well in the box and puts in the “easy” goals. In other leagues, that wont work as well as in the MLS. He capitalizes really well on poor defence, but he hasn’t quite learned how to beat a strong defence consistently. That is why he needs to go to another league. It isn’t Larin’s fault in my opinion. He is doing what it takes to score in the MLS, and he does it well.

The competition in other leagues will do well for him even if he isn’t fully successful. Jose Altidore went to Europe and wasn’t as successful as he wanted to be, but he learned a lot and came back to the MLS as a star. If Larin goes to Europe he will improve, even if he doesn’t succeed. If he stays in the MLS he won’t be challenged to improve the weak aspects of his game. I would much rather him go to Europe and “fail”, than stay in the MLS. There isn’t much more the weak defence and non-competitive atmosphere of the MLS can do for him. (I am not trying to be critical of the MLS, just the budget of the MLS doesn’t allow for enough internal competition for starting spots)

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12 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Are you sure about that ? Altidore is a great MLS player for sure don't get me wrong, but he's got a great team supporting him. Also he's got one of the best striker in MLS playing right beside him. Yes you can when  Sebastian was not playing he still played well but Ricketts and the other strikers are pretty good too. Altidore also was pretty good in the  Netherlands, what was it ? 69 games and 39goals  

Larin has played NCAA, 3 seasons of MLS and has played for Canada since he was 18 ? If Kaka says he's ready and will do great things, I won't disagree with him haha

I don't disagree either, in fact I think now is the right time for him to leave MLS.

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22 minutes ago, Blackjack15 said:

I know Larin's contract expires 31.12.2017 but can he leave Orlando City SC sooner and sign for a club in Europe? 

Is it a club or player option there? The season just ended so it makes sense that he would want to rest and relax for the time being 

Well if he left during his contract that is considered a transfer. And transfers are only permitted in transfer window

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3 hours ago, Blackjack15 said:

I know Larin's contract expires 31.12.2017 but can he leave Orlando City SC sooner and sign for a club in Europe? 

Is it a club or player option there? The season just ended so it makes sense that he would want to rest and relax for the time being 

His contract might not actually end this year. If Orlando has a club option they could just use the option and have him under contract for next year. It's a shitty thing to do on a person to person level but from a business standpoint, it would be crazy to loose him for nothing. I think Tabla is in the same situation with Montreal, in the end the club holds all the cards.

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7 minutes ago, farrelld said:

His contract might not actually end this year. If Orlando has a club option they could just use the option and have him under contract for next year. It's a shitty thing to do on a person to person level but from a business standpoint, it would be crazy to loose him for nothing. I think Tabla is in the same situation with Montreal, in the end the club holds all the cards.

I was told firsthand by a prominent MLS journalist that Orlando has team options for both 2018 and 2019. Using the options require a significant pay raise similar to the franchise tag in the NFL. 

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13 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I was told firsthand by a prominent MLS journalist that Orlando has team options for both 2018 and 2019. Using the options require a significant pay raise similar to the franchise tag in the NFL. 

Similar to Osorio IIRC

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15 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

I was told firsthand by a prominent MLS journalist that Orlando has team options for both 2018 and 2019. Using the options require a significant pay raise similar to the franchise tag in the NFL. 

I didn't know about the pay raise. However, I still think you take the option if your Orlando.

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