Disposition of Ownership Groups in CanPL

[rob.notenboom]

I'm probably going to regret writing this, if not now then maybe later when it comes back to bite me in the rear end somehow. But I've been in an argumentative mood today, so what the hell.

I was sifting through some twitter reactions to what Giovinco said about the surface at BMO. I don't usually get worked up about these kinds of things as I simply feel that it's not worth the time. Something that could just get you a little ticked off goes on to ruin your day instead? No thanks, regardless of whether or not I think Gio's criticism was valid or flawed. But one comment piqued my interest and it came from the Sports Entertainment Atlantic twitter account that I recently started following due to their interest in a CanPL team in Halifax. They tweeted a reaction to Giovinco's turf criticism that went something to the effect of - It was the absence of whining that has helped TFC catch on with new fans across the country #Canadiantough - I've tried to capture the spirit of the tweet, but it looks like it has been deleted and I can't remember what it said exactly. However, the implications were that Gio's complaint about BMO field surface was off-base, that part of TFC's popularity was due to the fact that they do not whine and/or dive, and the hashtag was either as I've included or #CanadaTough ... one of those two. 

I responded. Couldn't resist. I simply asked how many games this person had seen Giovinco play. They said the following:

 - not many. I know he is a great player but making excuses, valid or not, after poor performances isn't what fans in NA want to hear.

I went on to give a few responses to that, but didn't get another reply. 

A couple of points before I get into this ... Any organization that is willing to put up funds to start a pro team in CanPL has my support. I was very glad to hear that SEA was investigating starting a team in Halifax and I would love to go to a game there sometime if that happens. All the power to them if they can pull it off successfully. Also, I have no issue with someone feeling that Gio's statements were off-base. But what struck me about those two tweets was the undertone. Admittedly, the person in charge of that twitter account may have meant absolutely nothing and the undertone could have been entirely my imagination. However, it brought back a fear that I've had for a very long time about the potential CanPL ownership groups: These people may not know soccer at all. 

I have the same fear when I think about the Saskatchewan Roughriders being one of the potential owners. Having been a long standing Rider season ticket holder (I went to my first game in 1977 ... I think) I'm very aware of what a high quality organization they've become. Somehow, miraculously they won a Grey Cup in 1989. But they were seen by many as a second rate team with second rate management. But now, the game day product is fantastic. There is never a moment to be bored at a Rider game, and the new stadium will just enhance the experience. If nothing else, the new big screen is bloody HUGE!!

But I've said this before on the forum, none of the stuff that they do for game day for a CFL game will play for a CanPL game. Worse, there are potentially much deeper issues. It's abundantly clear that the Riders brass LOVE football. I suspect many in the Flames org or TNSE (if those orgs are involved) LOVE hockey. And even if they don't love it with a passion, they at least understand it and can accept it. It is very likely that the vast majority of CanPL ownership group members will not love soccer and may not really understand it either. On top of that, they may have difficulty accepting that the game has a culture that they are not going to be able to even influence that much ... that to 'do CanPL right' it will be less about bringing the North American sports fan a soccer product that they can enjoy, and more about convincing more and more North American sports fans to LOVE THE GAME as it is. But can the ownership groups learn to love soccer? Or at the very least can they learn to understand and accept it? Because I have difficulty seeing how a group can get a dedicated fan base that loves the sport when they may not even understand what it is they are trying to promote. How does an ownership group engender in a fan base the love of a game that they only tolerate?

My solace in all of this is that there are people from coast to coast who are ready, willing, and able to help out, and there will be SGs. Hallelujah for The Voyageurs. And maybe my fears will end up being completely unfounded, CanPL will assemble great ownership groups with soccer knowledgeable folks in key roles, and this will be a smashing success right out of the gate. But I don't think it would be unwise to be prepared for the eventuality that that is not the case.

[Complete Homer]

I get the feeling. That said, I think something to remember is that MLSE didn't "get" soccer at first either. Even Beirne said he didn't get it at first. So did Fath

It'll be a learning curve, for sure, but if they are smart they will do what Hamilton has been doing and hiring on soccer first type people as consultants. And it doesn't hurt that a guy like Beirne, who has a good track record at promoting supporters culture and authentic experience, in their ear. 

[Gopherbashi]

If it makes you feel better, I honestly don't think those type of owners will be in the league, despite these persistent CFL rumours.

Anyone who only tolerates soccer will not be willing to tolerate losing upwards of ten million dollars over a decade in the name of soccer - and that aspect seems to be foremost in many people's minds.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

52 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

And it doesn't hurt that a guy like Beirne, who has a good track record at promoting supporters culture and authentic experience, in their ear. 

basically what I was going to say.  #FeeltheBeirne

with regards to @rob.notenboom s initial statement though, I feel as though I'm caught in two minds.

I was thinking about how I would explain Gio's comments to my hockey, basketball, football friends, which, as much as we hate to admit it, is important. 

I'm kind of caught in two minds.  Firstly, I partially agree with the critique.  It's just not what NA sports fans want to hear, regardless of if there's any truth to it.  That is a completely north American sentiment.  Don't complain when you lose.  You see Bradley and Altidore etc handling the media the right way, and while I feel like Gio's comments were probably lost in translation somewhat, this should be a lesson to European players who want to be adored over here.  It just doesn't fly.

Now, the other side.  I'm sure he's completely right.  When the pitch is being used for multiple things, the quality can be affected.  It's easy for football(lemon) guys to be like why is he complaining about the pitch, but they just run on it, it's not exactly the same.  I feel like hockey players should have an easier time understanding this.  If the ice were absolute shite, hockey players would complain and no one would bat an eye as long as it wasn't unfounded.

Add onto this that the style gio plays relies heavily on ball control and I can see where he's coming from.  He's not the first to mention pitch quality in MLS, so we know it is indeed an issue.  And with regards to the sounders not complaining... well.. its a lot easier to play defense on a shit pitch than it is to create offence, so it's a little bit apples and oranges.

In summary, I think we do need to be cognizant of North American cultural norms, and include aspects in CPL that will appease these standards(extremely strict punishment for embellishment, retroactive if need be - more stringent than even NHL, comes to mind), because we do want this to be successful in the way that the semi-final was successful(seriously, even my one buddy who I've never managed to get into soccer sent me a text about it, it was a thing), while not compromising the integrity of the sport in the ways that some other north American sports do(ahem, TV timeouts, etc etc) \

anyways.  chin up, people are noticing, it's good.

 

[shermanator]

I think there has to be a fine balance between keeping the game true for those who love it, and making it appealing to the casual fan so that the CPL can be a sustainable league.

You know what I most commonly hear when I reference the game to my non-supporter friends? That it's boring and the players need to stop diving. Then they tell me to change the channel to a "real sport" like hockey or football. And this is an example when I tried to put on MLS Cup on Saturday. Unfortunately, that's the perception of the game to a large number of people, and even though that perception is slowly changing, it's still quite prevalent here in Calgary. 

I'll be honest, the embellishment of fouls is the biggest thing I hate about the game. Giovinco in particular is a very polarizing figure for me. One minute he's making fantastic plays that make me amazed, the next he's writhing around on the pitch trying to get a call or yelling dramatically at the refs or his teammates. I hate that kind of stuff. Time wasting drives me nuts as well, even if I understand the strategy behind it. A few years ago when Felipe was selling an injury and Bendik walked over, picked him up and placed him out of bounds, I ate it up.

And now I think I might be going on a tangent that isn't related to the OP.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

I think there has to be a fine balance between keeping the game true for those who love it, and making it appealing to the casual fan so that the CPL can be a sustainable league.

You know what I most commonly hear when I reference the game to my non-supporter friends? That it's boring and the players need to stop diving. Then they tell me to change the channel to a "real sport" like hockey or football. And this is an example when I tried to put on MLS Cup on Saturday. Unfortunately, that's the perception of the game to a large number of people, and even though that perception is slowly changing, it's still quite prevalent here in Calgary. 

I'll be honest, the embellishment of fouls is the biggest thing I hate about the game. Giovinco in particular is a very polarizing figure for me. One minute he's making fantastic plays that make me amazed, the next he's writhing around on the pitch trying to get a call or yelling dramatically at the refs or his teammates. I hate that kind of stuff. Time wasting drives me nuts as well, even if I understand the strategy behind it. A few years ago when Felipe was selling an injury and Bendik walked over, picked him up and placed him out of bounds, I ate it up.

And now I think I might be going on a tangent that isn't related to the OP.

slight tangent, but its in the same vein.  This idea of balance between the two I think will be key, as you said.  I would love to see CPL step up and set an example for the right way to police embellishment.  In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with doing it the Canadian Way.  In fact, as you said, I think it's imperative. 

No one wants to ruin the beautiful game, but at the same time, I think we should be open to just about anything in terms of changes.  Maybe not overhauls of the game, but maybe some significant tweaks.

[rob.notenboom]

Actually @shermanator I don't think that's much of a tangent at all. I hear the same thing. And I also dislike the diving. But even in my low div men's league, if you get fouled, lose control of the ball, and chase it in vain you rarely get the call. If you get fouled and go to ground you usually do. When someone cleats me in the ankles it hurts like hell and I spend a few moments cringing and/or writhing around. Then it passes and I get on with life. Trying to explain to one of my football loving buddies that getting tackled upper body on upper body by a 240lb linebacker does not hurt nearly as much as getting cleated in the knee (yes I've experienced both) is a tall order. 

But this is partially where the perception problem lies. People haven't played the game, don't understand the game, see a guy fouled and go to ground, and think he should just tough it out and stay on his feet. They don't get that the guy isn't simply a wimp because they just don't understand. 

And I don't think you can have a soccer league where there won't be issues with the typical non-soccer-aware sports fan and their understanding of what's really going on. To me success lies through getting people to learn about, understand, and come to love the game rather than cater to a general North American's ignorance. 

Just as a corrolary to that, we've had tough, gut-it-out, get stuck in philosophies about soccer for years in Canada. If the league ends up being about athletic ability and direct, untechnical play, I'm not sure it will be doing much to develop players. 

[rob.notenboom]

Yes @GuillermoDelQuarto crack down on diving etc. Totally agree. But no ridiculous rule changes like MLS had in the past. Part of CanPL has to be educating people. It's the world's game after all. 

[C2SKI]

4 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

one comment piqued my interest and it came from the Sports Entertainment Atlantic twitter account that I recently started following due to their interest in a CanPL team in Halifax. They tweeted a reaction to Giovinco's turf criticism that went something to the effect of - It was the absence of whining that has helped TFC catch on with new fans across the country #Canadiantough - I've tried to capture the spirit of the tweet, but it looks like it has been deleted and I can't remember what it said exactly. However, the implications were that Gio's complaint about BMO field surface was off-base, that part of TFC's popularity was due to the fact that they do not whine and/or dive, and the hashtag was either as I've included or #CanadaTough ... one of those two. 

I responded. Couldn't resist. I simply asked how many games this person had seen Giovinco play. They said the following:

 - not many. I know he is a great player but making excuses, valid or not, after poor performances isn't what fans in NA want to hear.

I went on to give a few responses to that, but didn't get another reply. 

A couple of points before I get into this ... Any organization that is willing to put up funds to start a pro team in CanPL has my support. I was very glad to hear that SEA was investigating starting a team in Halifax and I would love to go to a game there sometime if that happens. All the power to them if they can pull it off successfully. Also, I have no issue with someone feeling that Gio's statements were off-base. But what struck me about those two tweets was the undertone. Admittedly, the person in charge of that twitter account may have meant absolutely nothing and the undertone could have been entirely my imagination. However, it brought back a fear that I've had for a very long time about the potential CanPL ownership groups: These people may not know soccer at all.

Whether it was sports, school, or in general life, I was raised to take responsibility for failure and to never make excuses. What does that have to do with understanding soccer?

[-Hammer-]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

I think there has to be a fine balance between keeping the game true for those who love it, and making it appealing to the casual fan so that the CPL can be a sustainable league.

You know what I most commonly hear when I reference the game to my non-supporter friends? That it's boring and the players need to stop diving. Then they tell me to change the channel to a "real sport" like hockey or football. And this is an example when I tried to put on MLS Cup on Saturday. Unfortunately, that's the perception of the game to a large number of people, and even though that perception is slowly changing, it's still quite prevalent here in Calgary. 

I'll be honest, the embellishment of fouls is the biggest thing I hate about the game. Giovinco in particular is a very polarizing figure for me. One minute he's making fantastic plays that make me amazed, the next he's writhing around on the pitch trying to get a call or yelling dramatically at the refs or his teammates. I hate that kind of stuff. Time wasting drives me nuts as well, even if I understand the strategy behind it. A few years ago when Felipe was selling an injury and Bendik walked over, picked him up and placed him out of bounds, I ate it up.

And now I think I might be going on a tangent that isn't related to the OP.

I think this is one of the best posts on the subject I've seen shermantor and I echo many of the sentiments.

I completely agree with the non-supporter talk. The diving and whining complaint I hear all the time and it's valid. FIFA doesn't crack down on it, nearly enough and doesn't give refs enough rope to start carding guys who don't accept rulings from the refs. The boring speed of the game...well yeah I get that too but it happens.Just about every sport is victim of it sometimes in some way. Trap hockey, MMA Lay and Pray, Hugging in Boxing, 4th quarter time wasting. You sometimes have to appreciate the grind. 

Anyways, still ticked off at Giovinco for his pitch comments, and the Argos for being the peanut gallery, so I'll try to stay objective and positive as I can, but it's crap like that, which simply create barriers to people getting into the sport. To most people, complaining about the pitch is an absurdity unless the pitch is in truly atrocious condition, which by every report before the game on the subject indicated, has not been the case at BMO this season.

Getting to what Guilermo was saying, sure I don't think anyone would bat an eye if there were figure skating ruts on the ice and players complained, but the tolerance for field conditions in other sports just seems way higher. Even during the early Winter Classic games, NHL players pretty much said "Yeah, the ice is a bit soft so the puck bounces quite a bit, but it's just something you gotta get used to" controversy, non-existent. Maybe it is a North American thing, but I don't see Rugby players ever complaining the pitch is too muddy, nor Cricket the field to scraggly, nor Tennis players playing at the end of Wimbledon screaming that the place is too worn out, or that they have to play on Clay or a Hard surface and that is causing severe physical issues. 

Also, given the popularity of our woman's team, and how little they complain about playing on turf or on poorer grass, it's incredibly hard (for me, and a lot of people) to sympathise with players who complain about the state of the pitch. Even more so, when one of my favourite moments watching soccer was watching Schweinsteiger get clearly fouled in the world cup, shrugging it off while bleeding, get stitched up and going right back in to win it for Germany.

It's a fine line you have to walk. You can't stray to far from FIFA rules and discipline, otherwise you aren't preparing players to encounter it outside the CPL and you'll lose purists, but at the same token it is a huge barrier to the sport.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

47 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

Yes @GuillermoDelQuarto crack down on diving etc. Totally agree. But no ridiculous rule changes like MLS had in the past. Part of CanPL has to be educating people. It's the world's game after all. 

nothing ridiculous, but it's my opinion that we should take a look at considering changing overtime format(although maybe this is ridiculous to purists).  Nothing else.  I like the idea of deciding it in open play, but I'd be fine if they didn't either.  

this is slightly off-topic, but I do think part of combating that narrative is making it about cultural norms.  Basically, lots of countries play soccer, more than any other sport in the world, everyone knows this.  There are more games by far than any other sport, so naturally, there are more chances than any other sport to find moments that are ridiculous(you know the types of videos I'm talking about).  My point is that these are actually more about cultural norms than the sport itself.  Like... we're the mega-fans, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've ever seen a North American player take a dive.  Maybe I'm just putting the blinders on, but i honestly can't think of a player who regularly dives(Hoilet can be a bit soft, but I wouldn't say he dives either) from Canada.

I think we need to make sure people understand this.  Sure, players from other countries dive, but not our boys.  Thats the north american ethos.  Even winning isn't more important than the integrity of the game.  Some countries may look at it differently, but not us.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

 

[C2SKI]

7 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

I think this is one of the best posts on the subject I've seen shermantor and I echo many of the sentiments.

I completely agree with the non-supporter talk. The diving and whining complaint I hear all the time and it's valid. FIFA doesn't crack down on it, nearly enough and doesn't give refs enough rope to start carding guys who don't accept rulings from the refs. The boring speed of the game...well yeah I get that too but it happens.Just about every sport is victim of it sometimes in some way. Trap hockey, MMA Lay and Pray, Hugging in Boxing, 4th quarter time wasting. You sometimes have to appreciate the grind. 

Anyways, still ticked off at Giovinco for his pitch comments, and the Argos for being the peanut gallery, so I'll try to stay objective and positive as I can, but it's crap like that, which simply create barriers to people getting into the sport. To most people, complaining about the pitch is an absurdity unless the pitch is in truly atrocious condition, which by every report before the game on the subject indicated, has not been the case at BMO this season.

Getting to what Guilermo was saying, sure I don't think anyone would bat an eye if there were figure skating ruts on the ice and players complained, but the tolerance for field conditions in other sports just seems way higher. Even during the early Winter Classic games, NHL players pretty much said "Yeah, the ice is a bit soft so the puck bounces quite a bit, but it's just something you gotta get used to" controversy, non-existent. Maybe it is a North American thing, but I don't see Rugby players ever complaining the pitch is too muddy, nor Cricket the field to scraggly, nor Tennis players playing at the end of Wimbledon screaming that the place is too worn out, or that they have to play on Clay or a Hard surface and that is causing severe physical issues. 

Also, given the popularity of our woman's team, and how little they complain about playing on turf or on poorer grass, it's incredibly hard (for me, and a lot of people) to sympathise with players who complain about the state of the pitch. Even more so, when one of my favourite moments watching soccer was watching Schweinsteiger get clearly fouled in the world cup, shrugging it off while bleeding, get stitched up and went right back in to win it for Germany.

It's a fine line you have to walk. You can't stray to far from FIFA rules and discipline, otherwise you aren't preparing players to encounter it outside the CPL and you'll lose purists, but at the same token it is a huge barrier to the sport.

Pitch condition is a statement of pride in much of the world. It might seem strange to folks from other cultures that we care so little about it.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

7 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

Pitch condition is a statement of pride in much of the world. It might seem strange to folks from other cultures that we care so little about it.

It's not so much that we don't care about it, as much as it is that we are disgusted by people who make excuses.

especially right after an emotional loss.  

If this was midseason after a run of wins I don't think people would be making much of it.  The timing is most of the issue here.

[C2SKI]

2 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

It's not so much that we don't care about it, as much as it is that we are disgusted by people who make excuses.

especially right after an emotional loss.  

If this was midseason after a run of wins I don't think people would be making much of it.  The timing is most of the issue here.

See my comment prior to this one. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

haha my bad

more interested in my own thoughts than everyone elses apparently

[C2SKI]

Just now, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

haha my bad

more interested in my own thoughts than everyone elses apparently

I think we're all guilty of that.

[rob.notenboom]

9 hours ago, C2SKI said:

Whether it was sports, school, or in general life, I was raised to take responsibility for failure and to never make excuses. What does that have to do with understanding soccer?

Nothing really. But that wasn't my point. My point was that in the tweets there was an undertone of anti-soccer bias. 

Interestingly, I've gone back and listened to much of the audio of Giovinco's comments and they aren't nearly as whiny as the various press articles and subsequent reaction made them out to be. Not even close. They were more in vein of speculating about why he might be cramping and the heavy pitch was the only thing that seemed to fit. Not surprising that media seized on it to make some hay, but all too easy for folks with an anti-soccer bias to run with. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

6 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

Nothing really. But that wasn't my point. My point was that in the tweets there was an undertone of anti-soccer bias. 

Interestingly, I've gone back and listened to much of the audio of Giovinco's comments and they aren't nearly as whiny as the various press articles and subsequent reaction made them out to be. Not even close. They were more in vein of speculating about why he might be cramping and the heavy pitch was the only thing that seemed to fit. Not surprising that media seized on it to make some hay, but all too easy for folks with an anti-soccer bias to run with. 

Of course.  Here's the thing, it's the worlds game.  Everyone knows it.

Honestly on some level I think some other sports(CFL especially) has a bit of an inferiority complex towards soccer.  You're going to have anti-soccer bias all over the place just because of this.  We need to expect it and figure out the best ways to combat that narrative.

It's unfortunate because most of us don't know italian so it's all basically hearsay.

All the anti-soccer people are going to hear what they want to hear.

[-Hammer-]

19 hours ago, C2SKI said:

Pitch condition is a statement of pride in much of the world. It might seem strange to folks from other cultures that we care so little about it.

Sure, but I don't think I will ever understand it. I get if the place is a mud pit, or a weed field sure, but no one starts playing any sport on pristine conditions, it improves with the level you are at. The game and how you play it is what is more important then what and where it is played. Conditions are just another form of adversity, that should be overcome.

Anyways, as far as ownership groups, I think Calgary has enough experience dealing with various other sports to have an open mind and reach out to supporters, and hopefully that can help Edmonton turn a corner. I think if the Riders are involved in soccer, ownership fears are founded. The stitching of both lines one the field already shows a lack of understanding. 

The big concern though is that you can't give the critics ammo about the game. It kills the perception of the sport.

 

[-Hammer-]

6 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Of course.  Here's the thing, it's the worlds game.  Everyone knows it.

Honestly on some level I think some other sports(CFL especially) has a bit of an inferiority complex towards soccer.  You're going to have anti-soccer bias all over the place just because of this.  We need to expect it and figure out the best ways to combat that narrative.

It's unfortunate because most of us don't know italian so it's all basically hearsay.

All the anti-soccer people are going to hear what they want to hear.

Yeah, the CFL fan will always have an inferiority complex. Mainly because, there are hordes of NFL fans who are only attracted to it by the glamour of the game and less the substance of it, and are always saying the CFL is no good and putting the CFL down.

[rob.notenboom]

4 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

The stitching of both lines one the field already shows a lack of understanding. 

 

The line stitching decision was ultimately the responsibility of the City of Regina and the Stadium Authority not the Riders. Guaranteed the Riders would have been consulted, but the maintenance expense likely would have been born by the city and they were the ones who deemed it too expensive. FYI.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

4 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

Yeah, the CFL fan will always have an inferiority complex. Mainly because, there are hordes of NFL fans who are only attracted to it by the glamour of the game and less the substance of it, and are always saying the CFL is no good and putting the CFL down.

Yea.  I mean I feel for them.  It must be irritating.  Just wish they wouldn't take it out on soccer fans, which I feel they often tend to. 

I do wish they would just adopt NFL rules and play some crossover games every once in a while, but I'm not really much of an NFL or CFL fan to be honest, and I guess the NFL has nothing to gain from this anyways.

Although I'm starting to find a soft spot for the ticats

[Levi Oakey]

When the Grand River area gets a team, and if it is partnered with KW we will have the opposite problem in my mind. KW United has some very good soccer people involved. But so far they haven't figured out gameday, and now it often feels like they are just experimenting. 

But they get players, and they get what makes a good club. They just haven't figured out the fan bit so far. 

[rob.notenboom]

37 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said:

When the Grand River area gets a team, and if it is partnered with KW we will have the opposite problem in my mind. KW United has some very good soccer people involved. But so far they haven't figured out gameday, and now it often feels like they are just experimenting. 

But they get players, and they get what makes a good club. They just haven't figured out the fan bit so far. 

That's interesting. What are they getting wrong, exactly?

[theaub]

fwiw, I don't think what Giovinco said about the pitch is any different than what we hear in other North American sports.  I found links of similar for baseball, hockey (more hockey) (even more hockey) and football (x2) with two seconds of google searching.  Let's not make it like this is some European thing.  Hell Jozy said the same thing, just worded a little more indirectly.

Shockingly, it becomes an issue when the media decides to make it an issue because they know they'll get the #CONTENT hits for any Argos/TFC issue.