When Will Canada Surpass the USA?

[TwoTouch]

American here who stumbled upon this thread and found it interesting. A few thoughts.

1) When this thread was at its peak, the US was certainly struggling and between generations. There was almost a two cycle gap in player development after the Landon/Dempsey generation and MLS offered us very little talent while our yanks abroad dried up to the point we didn't have a single American developed attacker playing in any of the top 4 leagues and a guy with a touch of an elephant in Gyasi Zardes somehow became a lock starter. 

2) The next wave of American talent however is coming. Pulisic is the top 18 yr old we've ever produced by a wide margin and probably considered by most a top five 18 yr old on the planet. Wood has grown into his own in the Bundesliga for HSV. Emerson Hyndman impressed on his loan with Rangers and now will get a shot at breaking into Bournemouth. But looking beyond that is where the real promise of a next wave is.

There's been a trend over the last few years which has seen most of our elite YNTers get good offers in Europe by 18, 16 if they have an EU passport. So we've got a Perez at Fiorentina who actually made a debut earlier this season, we've got Haji Wright, Taitague and McKennie impressing in Schalke's academy. Seems one of our top U17's in Josh Sargent might join them there next winter. Olosunde made Manchester United's travel team for tomorrow. Lederman is a high end prospect at Barcelona. Tillman a highly rated prospect at Bayern Munich. Cameron Carter-Vickers is also highly rated at Tottenham. Akale is at Villarreal. There's a number more in Europe. Paul Arriola is a regular starter for Xolos, one of the top 3 clubs in Liga MX. Then in MLS we have what some consider the next Pulisic in Andrew Carleton, arguably better than Pulisic was for the U17's and had major Euro clubs after him but lacked the passport. Right now he's dominating this U17 tournament. FCD has some highly rated youth including 17 yr old Pomykal and 16 yr old Jesus Ferreira, David's son. 

We have more young talent in better situations than ever before and by the sheer law of averages, if even just a handful break thru we're going to see a USANT where most of its attackers are getting regular time across the top 4 leagues. We've never had that before.

I fully expect our 2022 cycle to be our best ever talent wise. And by a good margin. I expect multiple UCL level attackers in our team. Pulisic and Carleton at the least. 

3) Our YNT results support the above. We struggled for awhile yet we beat Mexico in the U20's and won the region's title, heading to the U20 WC this summer. Likewise, Our U17's have slaughtered the competition, beat Mexico once and face them tomorrow in the title match. 

4) Much like MLS I believe Canada struggles to scout youth players and funnel them upward thru a mature system. That's because neither country has been doing this for that long. Canada also has far fewer MLS teams which makes it tougher. Still I believe the biggest factor is the popularity of the game with the kids. Are your kids watching high level football on tv, dreaming of playing in the UCL for the biggest clubs? That type of love for the game from an early age, which produces many hours of practice alone on the ball, is what starts to produce the higher level players. Forget academies and all that, a player is usually made well before that, as a 3-10 yr old, developing his skill. 

I think a guy like Alphonso Davies did just that and he's a legit high end prospect as a result. You can't teach his skill, he developed it himself just as Steve Nash developed his ball handling himself. But as Vancouver maturers as do other Canadian MLS clubs, better talent will start funneling in. It'll take time. 

5) I do not consider MLS a good developer of talent. It's actually set up to be poor at development with all the stupid player movement restrictions, drafts, allocations, etc, which forces player after player into terrible situations. That actually keeps pushing our elite NYTers overseas. Many of our better prospects have nada to do with MLS. The best young American attacker in MLS is Jordan Morris who has the worst left foot our NT program has ever seen. He and Zardes are the types that MLS is giving us. Athletes, not footballers. That should lend confidence to Canada as a league that is good at development is not a necessity. You just need a few top end players to come thru the ranks, then find good situations in Europe at 16 or 18. 

MLS did not develop Pulisic. Bobby Wood has nothing to do with MLS. Carleton developed himself outside MLS before signing with ATL months ago. Josh Sargent our U17 captain also has nothing to do with MLS. Overseas, two out of our three kids at Schalke have nothing to do with MLS. Akale at Villarreal, again, no MLS connection. And on and on. 

Anyway, I come in peace and wanted to lend a few thoughts on the topic. 

[ChuckMe92]

New poster here who wanted to address the topic of this thread.

Notwithstanding their results in recent CONCACAF youth tournaments, I actually like the young talent Canada has -- Davies, Tabla, among others. But I can't take seriously the posts which unironically say the US will be surpassed by Canada within the next 10 to 20 years. As an illustration, here is the young talent born between 1995-2003 who have been capped by US Soccer (mostly at youth level, a few at MNT level) and are playing in Europe, with the top 5 "crown jewels" in bold:

GK: Ethan Horvath (Club Brugge, Belgium), Justin Vom Steeg (Fortuna Dusseldorf II, Germany), Will Pulisic (Borussia Dortmund U19, Germany), Brandon Austin (Tottenham Hotspur U23, England), C.J. Dos Santos (Benfica U17, Portugal), Nicolas Defreitas-Hansen (Everton U16, England)

FB: Desevio Payne (Groningen, Netherlands), Shaq Moore (Levante Atletico, Spain), Antonee Robinson (Everton U23, England), Kyle Duncan (Valenciennes II, France), Matt Olosunde (Manchester United U23, England), Toni Suddoth (VfB Stuttgart U19, Germany), Marlon Fossey (Fulham U23, England), Sergino Dest (Ajax U17, Netherlands), Elias Thomas (Wolfsburg U16, Germany)

CB: Matt Miazga (Vitesse on loan from Chelsea, Netherlands/England) Cameron Carter-Vickers (Tottenham Hotspur, England), Danny Barbir (West Bromwich Albion U23, England), Kyle Gruno (Leicester City U18, England), Sebastian Serpa (Bari U17, Italy)

CM: Russell Canouse (Bochum on loan from Hoffenheim, Germany), Emerson Hyndman (Rangers on loan from Bournemouth, Scotland/England), Omar Castro (Eintracht Braunschweig II, Germany), Gedion Zelalem (Venlo on loan from Arsenal, Netherlands/England), Keaton Parks (Varzim, Portugal), Ander Egiluz (Athletic Bilbao U19, Spain), Weston McKennie (Schalke U19, Germany), Sebastian des Pres (Blackpool, England), Nicholas Pergjini (Troyes U19, France), Callum Stretch (Aston Villa U18, England), Ben Lederman (Barcelona U17, Spain), Ian Hoffmann (Karlsruher U16, Germany), Max Goeggel (VfB Stuttgart U15, Germany)

CAM: Lynden Gooch (Sunderland, England), Joel Sonora (VfB Stuttgart II, Germany), James Murphy (Sheffield Wednesday, England), Kyle Scott (Chelsea U23, England), Kevin Coleman (Kaiserslautern U19, Germany), Luca de la Torre (Fulham, England), Christian Pulisic (Borussia Dortmund, Germany), Nick Taitague (Schalke U19, Germany), Malik Tillman (Bayern Munich U15, Germany)

WM/winger: Gboly Ariyibi (Nottingham Forest, England), Julian Green (VfB Stuttgart, Germany), Mukwelle Akale (Villarreal C, Spain), Stephen Payne (Estoril Praia U23, Portugal), Joshua Perez (Fiorentina, Italy), Kai Koreniuk (Vitesse II, Netherlands), Isaiah Young (Werder Bremen U19, Germany), Kevin Lankford (Heidenheim, Germany), Paolo Urso (Genoa U19, Italy), Lateef Omidiji (Feyenoord U15, Netherlands)

FW/striker: Rubio Rubin (Silkeborg, Denmark), Andrija Novakovich (Reading U23, England), Brooks Lennon (Real Salt Lake on loan from Liverpool, USA/England), Emmanuel Sabbi (Las Palmas Atletico, Spain), McKinze Gaines (Wolfsburg U19, Germany), Haji Wright (Schalke U19, Germany), Nebiyou Perry (AIK Stockholm, Sweden), Cody Sundquist (Fiorentina U19, Italy), Nicolas Garcia-Morillo (Atletico Madrid U17, Spain), Timothy Weah (Paris Saint-Germain U19, France), Konrad de la Fuente (Barcelona U16, Spain), Joshua Pynadath (Ajax U15, Netherlands)

And none of this includes the top talents currently playing domestically, such as Tyler Adams, Andrew Carleton, Erik Palmer-Brown, Brady Scott, Paxton Pomykal, Josh Sargent, John Hilton, ad nauseum, who have already played or trialed with top clubs in Europe and will likely move abroad soon. Nor does this include the American talents playing in Mexico, some of whom are being fought over between the USSF and FMF. There are also a few US Soccer-capped youth players in Argentina, Brazil, and Peru. And there are American-eligible dual-nationals playing for European countries -- mainly Germany, but also others -- who could very possibly switch to the US down the road. 

The US has had a dearth of talent from the prospects born in the late '80s to early '90s. From '95-since, things have turned for the better. In 2015, the US U20s made it to the quarterfinal of the World Cup. In 2017, the U20s won the CONCACAF Championship, and the U17s are currently favored to win at their level as well. The U17s beat Brazil, Portugal, and Turkey at the Nike Friendlies. The U15s defeated England, Portugal, and others to win the Delle Nazioni Tournament in Italy. This year, the US U20s, U17s, and U16s have each outplayed and beaten Mexico in separate tournaments.

As a US fan, while I'd honestly be happy to see Canada succeed and do well, there is no way it will surpass the US anytime remotely soon, given the sheer talent comparison.

[jpg75]

Jesus guys, this thread is a fucking train wreck started by an obvious anti-American troll. You'll never get the time back you spent on those long ass posts.

[Guest]

Can't believe these guys thought this was a serious thread

[C2SKI]

Great reading though! It's clear the Yanks are now worried after today's auspicious proclamation of Canada's preeminent Premier League.

[ChuckMe92]

Okay guys, back for my second post. My first post didn't take all that long; it was mostly copied-and-pasted (the US Soccer youngsters in Europe player pool which I maintain). It seems my irony meter was off for the thread topic and certain (trolling) posts which my post had been directed at -- I'll take a ribbing for that.

Regardless, hope you enjoyed my post. People outside of US circles may not realize that the US has a ton of young talent outside of the well-known Pulisic. We have a 21-yo who has won the starting GK job for Club Brugge, we have a 19-yo who has regularly made the Tottenham matchday squad, we have the most valuable player in Schalke's youth system, we have a 17-yo playing above his age level at PSG, we have a 15-yo kid at Barcelona who continually stands out from his peers at La Masia. That last one, Konrad de la Fuente, led the US U16s to a 3-0 demolishing of Mexico recently. Our U17s and U20s outplayed and outskilled Mexico too, not merely athleticism, on their way to victory. I guess that can be the point of the post, that the future of the US is not merely "yeah, they struck gold with Pulisic but otherwise it'll be the same old US."

Our current MNT is not that good because our we've been struggling between generations. Our U17 and U20 youth cycles from 2009 to 2013 have been largely disappointing. We will be much better -- better than El Tri -- when Pulisic and our other domestically-developed youngsters hit their prime a decade from now.

Just like the other American poster (quite a coincidence with the timing), I do sincerely wish Canadian soccer well. Root for them and maintain an interest in their players, and other eligibles who I feel should commit to Canada, e.g. Feirrera in Portugal. It annoys me that Canada can't get a player who was born and raised there.

[Markus]

Why?? Just... why????

[ThiKu]

Canada will never surpass USA. But with the CanPL we will start uncovering more and more gems, more and more youth programs will develop their programs to increase player production and we should start reaching the final qualifying round on a regular basis in the next 8 years. wow....that's depressing!

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, ThiKu said:

Canada will never surpass USA.

Never say never

[Macksam]

The only difference between them and us was a professional league. Since that has been taken care of, we'll probably catch up in a short amount of time. After that, it will be purely generational. Whoever develops a better crop of players during a certain era will be better. Sometimes that will be us, sometimes it will be them.

[Ansem]

Just now, Macksam said:

The only difference between them and us was a professional league. Since that has been taken care of, we'll probably catch up in a short amount of time. After that, it will be purely generational. Whoever develops a better crop of players during a certain era will be better. Sometimes that will be us, sometimes it will be them.

And as we see with other nations, bigger isn't necessarily better.

[Kent]

49 minutes ago, Macksam said:

The only difference between them and us was a professional league. Since that has been taken care of, we'll probably catch up in a short amount of time. After that, it will be purely generational. Whoever develops a better crop of players during a certain era will be better. Sometimes that will be us, sometimes it will be them.

I don't really know, but is it really possible that their youth system is as messed up as ours? I really don't get that impression with that big youth league they have that the MLS academy teams (annoyingly including Vancouver and Montreal) play in.

[Macksam]

30 minutes ago, Kent said:

I don't really know, but is it really possible that their youth system is as messed up as ours? I really don't get that impression with that big youth league they have that the MLS academy teams (annoyingly including Vancouver and Montreal) play in.

CPL will probably have a similar top down effect on development. However, I still believe a lot more of our top athletes per capita will choose the sport over theirs.

[Ansem]

I'm sharing this video to further the point that the US have their fair shares of challenges. I like to let Americans speak for themselves This isn't me criticizing them, I'm merely echoing what they think of themselves.

For me, I'll maintain the USMNT peaked in the 2014 World Cup in Brazil.

Klinsmann never hide his pessimism towards the US system, hence relying heavily on players eligible to an American passport playing in top leagues. (Google Tim Howard complaining about that)

 As the video pointed out and that's important, there's so many other sports to chose from in the US as a kid and usually, the most gifted athletes will prioritize basketball, football, baseball and hockey (in more traditional US markets), the majority of the time. Imagine a LeBron James choosing soccer over basketball with his work ethics and drive to be the best. Imagine if half of those US super elite athletes playing in the NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL had chosen soccer when they were young. Imagine them kicking a ball on the streets or soccer field instead of dribbling on a court, throwing a football or playing street hockey... how much farther the USMNT would be.

While in Canada, it comes down to soccer (most registrations in the country) or hockey, just like in Scandinavia, while in most European nations, it's soccer or 1 other sport. South America? Soccer and...soccer.

CPL will do what NHL did for me, playing street hockey at age 6 dreaming of being a Montreal Canadiens one day. In the summer, I played baseball in the backyard and baseball field in my town, because I also dreamed of being a Montreal Expos...unfortunately, soccer was nowhere at the time

Luckily, we already have more kids choosing soccer over hockey today and it's been like this for a while. That's why CPL arriving now is a blessing as all those kids have even more reasons to choose soccer, work harder, polish their craft, strengthen their bodies with the goal of making CPL or MLS which could lead to higher leagues in Europe or South America. CPL being in every major Canadian markets with academies all over makes the future that much brighter. We need structure, opportunities and better coaching/training for our talents and with time, we'll get there.

Does US soccer attracts the best pure athletes available? No way I believe that but Canada has a higher chance in doing so since they either choose hockey or soccer most of the time, which is the same as most soccer super power nations, but they possess the structure and program to translate this into success. Our athletes are just as gifted as anyone else on this planet, we just need to provide the right environment to thrive as a soccer nation.

Solving our issues will just attract more kids to the game while the US will always have to fight the other sports for the most gifted athletes available.

That's why I will never say that "Canada will never surpass the US".

PS: We're more likely to develop a "soccer culture" than the US. Doesn't help when you still have lots of influent people in the media or people in general mocking soccer. Kids see that and they internalize it and just play something else.

[Macksam]

^^^^Thankfully kids today also see high level European soccer a lot more than people bashing the sport which mesmerizes and draws them in. I got hooked as an eleven year old kid watching Juventus beat As Monaco 4-1 through a Del Piero hat-trick (and Zidane getting the fourth goal? Maybe?) in the Champions League after coming home from school one Wednesday afternoon during the late 90s as I randomly flipped through the channels before eventually landing on channel 30, TSN. I had no idea professional soccer existed in the world until that point.