When Will Canada Surpass the USA?

[matty]

23 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

Still, it's probably just as bad, because I'm sure that in New York, it's the same thing that in the GTA. 

I think we do and don't. I think it's more by the time soccer because a possibility for kids it's too late possibly due to hockey.

[Macksam]

8 hours ago, Blackdude said:

Still, it's probably just as bad, because I'm sure that in New York, it's the same thing that in the GTA. 

I don't know what the situation in New York is. What is it? I'll tell you if it matches.

[Blackdude]

53 minutes ago, Macksam said:

I don't know what the situation in New York is. What is it? I'll tell you if it matches.

I think it is simlar to Toronto playing football that you consider not popular. It`s not that popular there. They have the potential to do the same thing that you think that Toronto can do. Sure, basketball is king there, but you said it yourself, you need to be of a certain height to have a chance to become pro.

[kungfucious]

On 2016年11月12日 at 9:13 AM, Pqhbv said:

I'd vote for the year after we have the CPL in place, but that's not an option apparently...

yeah it is... its 42

[matty]

18 minutes ago, kungfucious said:

yeah it is... its 42

hey that was my overly used reference in this thread

[Mister215Guy]

Can we please be serious here and cut out the nonsense posts that don't add anything meaningful?

[top cheese]

 

 

[top cheese]

If you look at the big picture Canada is really not far off the United States. Its not like the USA has produced many world class talents and benefits more from a wide network of players to choose from. If there quality was so great they wouldn't be recruiting the German American players they have in recent years.

Canada with Jonathan Deguzman, Amir Begovic. Dual Nationals who are more interested in playing for Canada (i.e. Christiane, Ferreira) right away. And proper player selection ( i.e. Osorio, Tiebert, etc) would be on par with the UNited States and a major player in CONCACAF. Plus take into account that if the CSA had proper administration and could acquire proper club opporitunities for its players ( i.e Boikai, carrerrio, etc) How many more quality players would we have to select from?

 

[Blackdude]

8 minutes ago, top cheese said:

If you look at the big picture Canada is really not far off the United States. Its not like the USA has produced many world class talents and benefits more from a wide network of players to choose from. If there quality was so great they wouldn't be recruiting the German American players they have in recent years.

Canada with Jonathan Deguzman, Amir Begovic. Dual Nationals who are more interested in playing for Canada (i.e. Christiane, Ferreira) right away. And proper player selection ( i.e. Osorio, Tiebert, etc) would be on par with the UNited States and a major player in CONCACAF. Plus take into account that if the CSA had proper administration and could acquire proper club opporitunities for its players ( i.e Boikai, carrerrio, etc) How many more quality players would we have to select from?

 

Well, no offense to the Ouimette and Piette of the world, but the US has much better players than them. If you're telling me that it's the dual nationals that are the reason why the US is better than us, it's false. It was probably true in the early 90's, but MLS has helped their best players a way to make them better. The US has many players developing and they know that if one fails in MLS, another will take his place. It's not the same thing here. If a player fails, it's probably the end of the road for him and it's probable that they replace him with a foreign player.

And if we were not far off with the US, why  haven't we qualified for 8 consecutive World Cups and they have? Why haven't we made the Hex in our last 5 consecutive tries while they have? Why have we made only 3 Gold Cup semi finals while they have won the tournament 5 times? They have been better than us and I don't think we can deny that.

I think the big difference between us and the US is that while they don't have world class players, they have a lot of good players on their team. We have what 5 of those? I'd say Osorio, Larin, Hutchinson, Arfield and Borjan (including one who Canada has had nothing to do with his development). The US has easily 5 times this amount. To be a good national team, I think we need around 20 good players. The thing is that you can't expect MLS to develop all of them, those players need opportunities. A CPL would help in that regard, but let's be honest, I don't think that we need to look to be better than the US, we need to find a way to be better than Honduras first before trying to figure out how we can be better than the US.

[MtlMario]

2 hours ago, Blackdude said:

Well, no offense to the Ouimette and Piette of the world, but the US has much better players than them. If you're telling me that it's the dual nationals that are the reason why the US is better than us, it's false. It was probably true in the early 90's, but MLS has helped their best players a way to make them better. The US has many players developing and they know that if one fails in MLS, another will take his place. It's not the same thing here. If a player fails, it's probably the end of the road for him and it's probable that they replace him with a foreign player.

And if we were not far off with the US, why  haven't we qualified for 8 consecutive World Cups and they have? Why haven't we made the Hex in our last 5 consecutive tries while they have? Why have we made only 3 Gold Cup semi finals while they have won the tournament 5 times? They have been better than us and I don't think we can deny that.

I think the big difference between us and the US is that while they don't have world class players, they have a lot of good players on their team. We have what 5 of those? I'd say Osorio, Larin, Hutchinson, Arfield and Borjan (including one who Canada has had nothing to do with his development). The US has easily 5 times this amount. To be a good national team, I think we need around 20 good players. The thing is that you can't expect MLS to develop all of them, those players need opportunities. A CPL would help in that regard, but let's be honest, I don't think that we need to look to be better than the US, we need to find a way to be better than Honduras first before trying to figure out how we can be better than the US.

YOUR LAST LINE REMINDED ME OF A JOKE WHERE 2 GUYS WERE IN THE FOREST AND A BEAR SHOWS UP AND ONE OF THEM SAYS " WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO OUTRUN THE BEAR" AND THE OTHER ONE ANSWERS " I DON'T HAVE TO OUTRUN THE BEAR, I JUST HAVE TO OUTRUN YOU."

[shermanator]

2 hours ago, Blackdude said:

Well, no offense to the Ouimette and Piette of the world, but the US has much better players than them. If you're telling me that it's the dual nationals that are the reason why the US is better than us, it's false. It was probably true in the early 90's, but MLS has helped their best players a way to make them better. The US has many players developing and they know that if one fails in MLS, another will take his place. It's not the same thing here. If a player fails, it's probably the end of the road for him and it's probable that they replace him with a foreign player.

And if we were not far off with the US, why  haven't we qualified for 8 consecutive World Cups and they have? Why haven't we made the Hex in our last 5 consecutive tries while they have? Why have we made only 3 Gold Cup semi finals while they have won the tournament 5 times? They have been better than us and I don't think we can deny that.

I think the big difference between us and the US is that while they don't have world class players, they have a lot of good players on their team. We have what 5 of those? I'd say Osorio, Larin, Hutchinson, Arfield and Borjan (including one who Canada has had nothing to do with his development). The US has easily 5 times this amount. To be a good national team, I think we need around 20 good players. The thing is that you can't expect MLS to develop all of them, those players need opportunities. A CPL would help in that regard, but let's be honest, I don't think that we need to look to be better than the US, we need to find a way to be better than Honduras first before trying to figure out how we can be better than the US.

Not only this, but the good players you have listed are not even that good when compared to others in the international football scene. Hutchinson is heads and shoulders the best on the squad, but unless he changes his mind, he's not going to be around in the next cycle. Arfield is an everyday Premier League player, but there's nothing extraordinary about him in any sense (if there were, he'd be playing for Scotland). Borjan is known more for getting schooled by Ozil than anything else. Larin and Osorio are good MLS players with potential, but nothing more as of today. Hardly an inspiring list of talent that will lead us to the hex.

Dual nationals like Cristante won't make that much of a difference; if they were a truly a talented international level player, they'd be playing with their first choice (ie. not Canada). Average MLS players like Teibert won't help either as they have plateaud in their current club situation. Once highly-rated prospects who don't seem to be able / willing to prove themselves on a club like Boakai or Carreiro won't either.

IMO, we're not only looking at catching up countries like Honduras, but we're also fighting holding back countries like Haiti and Curacao from passing us, who are improving rapidly.

[jpg75]

21 hours ago, Mister215Guy said:

Can we please be serious here and cut out the nonsense posts that don't add anything meaningful?

This whole thread is pointless. The question should have been "when will the US catch up to Canada?"

[ted]

11 hours ago, jpg75 said:

This whole thread is pointless. The question should have been "when will the US catch up to Canada?"

 

LOL  Love the attitude!

[top cheese]

On ‎2016‎-‎11‎-‎23 at 3:35 PM, Blackdude said:

Well, no offense to the Ouimette and Piette of the world, but the US has much better players than them. If you're telling me that it's the dual nationals that are the reason why the US is better than us, it's false. It was probably true in the early 90's, but MLS has helped their best players a way to make them better. The US has many players developing and they know that if one fails in MLS, another will take his place. It's not the same thing here. If a player fails, it's probably the end of the road for him and it's probable that they replace him with a foreign player.

And if we were not far off with the US, why  haven't we qualified for 8 consecutive World Cups and they have? Why haven't we made the Hex in our last 5 consecutive tries while they have? Why have we made only 3 Gold Cup semi finals while they have won the tournament 5 times? They have been better than us and I don't think we can deny that.

I think the big difference between us and the US is that while they don't have world class players, they have a lot of good players on their team. We have what 5 of those? I'd say Osorio, Larin, Hutchinson, Arfield and Borjan (including one who Canada has had nothing to do with his development). The US has easily 5 times this amount. To be a good national team, I think we need around 20 good players. The thing is that you can't expect MLS to develop all of them, those players need opportunities. A CPL would help in that regard, but let's be honest, I don't think that we need to look to be better than the US, we need to find a way to be better than Honduras first before trying to figure out how we can be better than the US.

The issue in Canada has always been lack of administration of its technical programs and proper playing/development opportunities for its players. I have always believed that this is the same in the United States but they have overcome it by a gigantic influx of money into its programs and I think that's why in the past why they have been able to qualify consistently for Hex and World Cups ( in a very weak conference mind you). If the United States was in Europe of South America I'm very doubtful they would be qualifying consistently for major events.

I believe this argument is only based on MNTs. Looking at the current state of the United States Men's team it isn't that bright. And looking at their struggles on the road it doesn't look much greater then Canada's results. I do think that the difference between the to countries is in the quantity of their playing pools. While the quality of MLS is poor compared to Europe for example. USA still has a large majority of their players playing regularly in a professional league which Canada doesn't for a number of reasons. They seem like they are constantly looking for foreign born players with americian ties. which doesn't really show confidence in what they already have or coming up.

What I am saying if you hypothetically give the CMNT the benefit of being able to draw there best Canadian players like Begovic and Deguzman ( both of whom would be a massive upgrade to the USA starting 11 right now and probably would have played for Canada is the MNT wasn't so poorly run over the years). Combine them with what we have now. Add players like Osorio and Teibert who have been unfairly omitted from the team ( and yes both are quality MLS players, Osorio in particular has been regularly good this season). And some of the Canada eligible players like I suggested Christaine ( arguing he wouldn't be a quality player in CONCAAF or MLS is nuts) or Ferreira. Would give the CMNT a significantly better quality in player depth then they do now. And lets face facts ( outside the gamesmanship they play) the Central Americian teams are poor overall. I'm not saying the program would be world beaters but we would likely be getting the same results as the UNited States in this moment of time.

 

   

[Ansem]

15 minutes ago, top cheese said:

The issue in Canada has always been lack of administration of its technical programs and proper playing/development opportunities for its players. I have always believed that this is the same in the United States but they have overcome it by a gigantic influx of money into its programs and I think that's why in the past why they have been able to qualify consistently for Hex and World Cups ( in a very weak conference mind you). If the United States was in Europe of South America I'm very doubtful they would be qualifying consistently for major events.

Spot on

15 minutes ago, top cheese said:

I believe this argument is only based on MNTs. Looking at the current state of the United States Men's team it isn't that bright. And looking at their struggles on the road it doesn't look much greater then Canada's results. I do think that the difference between the to countries is in the quantity of their playing pools. While the quality of MLS is poor compared to Europe for example.

Indeed, Doesn't look good for Russia 2018 and we might be looking at a decline of their national team. Decline? Yes. I think they peaked at Brazil 2016 World Cup but they don't have that little extra needed to push them into the next level. That team that scared Germany was the best US team ever and I doubt they can repeat.

Thank you for pointing out the quantity vs quality of players. For some reason, some people on this board thinks that American domestic players in MLS are the second coming of Germany. They might be above Canadian players in general, but no way that the gap is that big.

DPs and International players are the overwhelmingly big reason why MLS has became a show, and we should be quite pleased on how well Canadian players have performed in MLS and don't look out of place.

22 minutes ago, top cheese said:

They seem like they are constantly looking for foreign born players with americian ties. which doesn't really show confidence in what they already have or coming up.

BINGO! Some of their players on the team weren't born in the US and/or grew up in Europe at a very young age. Those players plays in top European leagues as well.

 Like you said, the US does put an emphasis on those type of players before considering their own pool.

32 minutes ago, top cheese said:

What I am saying if you hypothetically give the CMNT the benefit of being able to draw there best Canadian players like Begovic and Deguzman ( both of whom would be a massive upgrade to the USA starting 11 right now and probably would have played for Canada is the MNT wasn't so poorly run over the years). Combine them with what we have now. Add players like Osorio and Teibert who have been unfairly omitted from the team ( and yes both are quality MLS players, Osorio in particular has been regularly good this season). And some of the Canada eligible players like I suggested Christaine ( arguing he wouldn't be a quality player in CONCAAF or MLS is nuts) or Ferreira. Would give the CMNT a significantly better quality in player depth then they do now. And lets face facts ( outside the gamesmanship they play) the Central Americian teams are poor overall. I'm not saying the program would be world beaters but we would likely be getting the same results as the UNited States in this moment of time.

100% agree.

Seems for the first time (ever?), we have a competent person at the head of the CSA and it's starting to look like the CSA is getting its act together with their strategic plan to reform D3, making nominations and investing to repair training at the root level and finally launching a top league. I think our future looks bright going forward.

[Mister215Guy]

Thank you Ansem for clearing everything. People don't realize that the US is closer to Canada and maybe Caribbean countries in talent level than to Mexico, despite the Americans' efforts to challenge Concacaf domination. It's international DP's AND Canadians that make MLS somewhat relevant. Otherwise it's an amateur level freak show that nobody respects. Considering in 20 years the quality hasn't improved by an iota! Plus, American players have not been successful in Europe and if you look at young talents coming up Canada is CLEARLY SUPERIOR to the US. Why do some forumers think this topic is a joke? If Australia can surpass the US with a smaller population and similar demographics, Canada should do it too.

[One American]

The USMNT is in a bit of a talent trough right now. The 25-30 age group has some good players but no real difference makers like Donovan, Dempsey, Jones and Howard in the generation ahead of it. But the group 23 and under is loaded. There's just a lot of players who look like outstanding prospects that will emerge into professional careers in the next couple of years. 

Over the next  when the WC comes back to North America, our team will look something like: 

F: Pulisic (Dortmund), Ebobisse (Duke), Morris (Seattle), Green (Bayern Munich), Weah (PSG), Wood (Hamburg)

M: , Perez (Fiorentina) Zelalem (Arsenal), Tillman (Bayern Munich), Ferriera (FCD), Carleton (Atlanta United), Gooch (Sunderland), Wright (Schalke), McKennie (Schalke) 

D: Brooks (Hertha Berlin), Carter-VIckers (Tottenham) , Yedlin (Newcastle), Olosunde (Manchester United), Glad (RSL), Palmer-Brown (SKC/Porto), Marlon Fossey (Fulham) 

GK: Horvath (Molde), Austin (Tottenham), Bingham (San Jose) 

Sure, not all those those guys will fulfill their potential. But others we haven't heard of yet will outdo them.  Most of the teens mentioned have broken in already or are top prospects in their system. Weirdly, the goalkeeping seems to be the biggest question mark.  

 

[top cheese]

A lot comes down of the current difference comes down to what was the proper administration of the CSA, its technical programs, and its finances. I really don't think that the USA is that great or ever was. You can see a lot of opinion articles about the same concerns we have about youth development here in Canada being brought up in the United States. I really do believe that the bottom line comes down to the huge amounts of money that the United States has to put into their programs. And there ability to have their players play regularly at a decent standard of professional soccer. With the players we have lost over the years to other national teams and quality players who never had a fair chance of playing professionally we certainly would had equal players with the USA who play at the highest level. Remember united states golden boy donnavan was at best a sub on a mid-tier premiership team.

I think the United States has a number of good youth players coming through the system at significant clubs. But I think Canada is also starting to do the same. I think the performance of their Boys national teams are improving significantly as is the quality of coaching. But again, the issue is will many of them stud there development once they search for a senior professional game that they cant find. Even with MLS phony "international rule" most will end up playing division 3,4,5 Germay or in Scandenavia which is not great. In Canada we also loose a significant amount of players because youth national teams are only willing to expend money on players from BC, Ont, Qub and pro academy kids. Those pro academys usually don't take kids from outside there region because of the expense f boarding them.

[Macksam]

On ‎2016‎-‎11‎-‎24 at 4:24 PM, Ansem said:

Indeed, Doesn't look good for Russia 2018 and we might be looking at a decline of their national team. Decline? Yes. I think they peaked at Brazil 2016 World Cup but they don't have that little extra needed to push them into the next level. That team that scared Germany was the best US team ever and I doubt they can repeat.

Scared Germany? lol, Germany should have beat them by 4 or 5 goals. Same with Belgium. It was a miracle that Belgium game even went into extra time.

[One American]

Just to finish the point about the US .... Josh Perez debuted yesterday for Fiorentina. Erik Palmer-Brown made the bench for Porto, so it looks like it won't be long for him. 

[mrstepp817]

The US is struggling because their key core players are aging and some of the guys in that age 25-30 range aren't near the talents like they've had prior......but their young guys that are a year or two away are developing....Arena was certainly a temporary hire to simply salvage this WCQ campaign.....if Arena gets them to the World Cup the US performance won't be very good as I think it'll be a much much younger version....which long term is good.....

Canada has closed the gap at the moment but these things run in cycles for sure...US is in a rut for sure but they didn't look terrible at home vs. Mexico, Kilnsmann switched formations and I think that was a major tactical error to debut a new formation against Mexico w/o having tested it out against lesser teams.....Costa Rica was a disaster and I wonder if by then he had lost the team.....

[Vince193]

Whoever is saying that Canada is closing the gap clearly doesn't see the fact that the US youth teams have a few gems that are going to be huge stars. Pulisic is the tip of the iceberg.

Canada needs to close the gap on Panama and El Salvador, not the US.

[Mister215Guy]

Bump. 

The US isn't as good as you think. They're closer to El Salvador and Guatemala in skill level than the top Concacaf teams and the gap between the US and Mexico is getting wider. With Donovan and Dempsey both out the US has no players that could compete internationally. Canada should go further than the US in this year's Gold Cup.

" Canada needs to close the gap on Panama and El Salvador, not the US."

The US is below Panama and only slightly better than El Salvador.

[Guest]

On 2016-12-02 at 3:26 PM, Vince193 said:

Whoever is saying that Canada is closing the gap clearly doesn't see the fact that the US youth teams have a few gems that are going to be huge stars. Pulisic is the tip of the iceberg.

Canada needs to close the gap on Panama and El Salvador, not the US.

 

15 hours ago, Mister215Guy said:

Bump. 

The US isn't as good as you think. They're closer to El Salvador and Guatemala in skill level than the top Concacaf teams and the gap between the US and Mexico is getting wider. With Donovan and Dempsey both out the US has no players that could compete internationally. Canada should go further than the US in this year's Gold Cup.

" Canada needs to close the gap on Panama and El Salvador, not the US."

The US is below Panama and only slightly better than El Salvador.

Ok you are both wrong. The USA are better than freaking Panama. Also, on what Earth is El Salvador ahead of us? We were the better team in both games in Wcqs

[jpg75]

15 hours ago, Mister215Guy said:

Bump. 

I'm pushing my luck and looking to get banned.

FYP.