Canada Soccer Pyramid Post CPL discussion

[baulderdash77]

I'm a big supporter of the CanPL concept; but I have slightly more modest goals but a single pyramid excluding the MLS teams.

D1- 3 MLS teams and 6-8 CanPL teams.

D2 - empty

D3 - L1O, PQSL, Western D3 league.  Force the USL teams into the Canadian D3 leagues.

D4 - Existing D4 and CIS teams.

[Complete Homer]

 

42 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

I'm a big supporter of the CanPL concept; but I have slightly more modest goals but a single pyramid excluding the MLS teams.

D1- 3 MLS teams and 6-8 CanPL teams.

D2 - empty

D3 - L1O, PQSL, Western D3 league.  Force the USL teams into the Canadian D3 leagues.

D4 - Existing D4 and CIS teams.

I don't think forcing over the MLS2 teams helps us. The USL teams play at a level that CPL is probably only going to match at launch, the D3 leagues would be a massive step down. We don't need to shoot ourselves in the foot by eliminating a good area for development for the current MLS prospects. I think NASL (as far as they survive) will retain D2 and USL might make a meaningful case that they belong there too.

Now, the day a CPL2 comes along, absolutely force them over. But that isn't happening for a long time

[ted]

On 2016-10-28 at 6:32 PM, Gopherbashi said:

D3 would be your L1O, PLSQ, and ideally two leagues out west (BC & Prairies) for glorious balance.  The WHL example you list above (leaving only one league out west) might end up being more realistic, though I see the BC D3 teams (should any ever exist) balking at the long travel distances to the prairies if they can get away with a bus ride to Kamloops instead.

I don't see the CSA formally going to a D4 level; if anything they'll leave it to the provinces to just designate their top provincial leagues as such.

You do understand that the CSA already leaves it to the provinces to regulate the D3 level, right?

[coppercanuck]

The more I think about it, the CSA's path seems to be ok.  I'll give it a "B".  Teams are being added to the L1O/PLSQ, which is good.  The strength of the USL-MLS partnership shouldn't be overlooked.  Ultimately it's about players getting to the next level.  It seems to me that there are more MLS scouts/coaches watching USL games because there is some easier player movement (?) (maybe I'm wrong about that).  I'm hoping that the teams ready for that level will not be blocked.

As for the CPL. I'd love for it to happen but the longer it goes the more "wishful thinking" it feels like.

How does the CSA get an "A"? Kill the CSL and get those players into a sanctioned league. Get 2 more teams into the USL. Get that D3 league started in BC. Expand the VCup, by one round.  Small steps will be great to see.

Inter-provincial cup could be expanded.  One week at an MLS stadium/training ground with CNT coaching staff.  Four champs; L1O East, L1O West, PLSQ, BCD3. Play a round robin, Sun, Wed, Sat. Get access to MLS/CNT training (for both players and coaches) and obviously scouts.

AGREED - The CIS, CIAU or whatever rebranded nonsense they are now, is large, with great coverage around the country is great.  I always imagined those teams plus each team having an Alumni team as an instant huge impact.  Is it possible to have them play through the summer in an expanded D4 (or D3) league then a University League in the fall?

[zen]

8 hours ago, Ansem said:

League1 Ontario: Covers Ontario

Teams: FC London (Should be a CPL Market), Windsor Stars (Should be a CPL Market)

North Mississauga SC, Oakville Blue Devils, ProStars FC (Brampton), Sanjaxx Lions (Toronto), Sigma FC (Mississauga), Toronto FC Academy, Aurora United, Durham United (Pickering), Kingston Clippers, Master’s Futbol (Scarborough), North Toronto Nitros (Varsity), Toronto Skillz FC (Scarborough), Vaughan Azzurri, Woodbridge Strikers

 

Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship

League Cup: League1 Ontario Cup + Soccer League Memorial Cup

International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic Cup)

 

 Western Soccer League: This should be rebuilt from scratch and be inspired from the Western Hockey League model. 

 Teams: WSA Winnipeg, Victoria Highlanders, Calgary Foothills FC  and academies and more...

 

Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship

League Cup: Western League Cup + Soccer League Memorial Cup

International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic)

 

TV Coverage: Local coverage for all the matches where it`s possible and all matches needs to be available for streaming

 

Venues: Current structure

 

Salary Structure: Current structure

 

Level of play:  Current with objective to reduce the gap with USL

 

I have to say I think that Sigma needs to partner with an investor to have a team in the CPL. Their academy would be even more productive if it had a professional club it's players could graduate to.

[Complete Homer]

There was something way back about a Hamilton - Sigma partnership in the works, can't find it though 

[Ansem]

12 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

The USL teams play at a level that CPL is probably only going to match at launch

With the player budget that's being rumored, no way. CPL will be NASL level at the very least, most likely hire if they don't get over ambitious with the domestic quotas

For the rest, I agree that forcing MLS2 teams in D3 is a horrible idea.

[Kent]

8 hours ago, zen said:

I have to say I think that Sigma needs to partner with an investor to have a team in the CPL. Their academy would be even more productive if it had a professional club it's players could graduate to.

I wonder if this is actually true. Part of the good thing about Sigma is players can go where they are needed. For example, if Cyle Larin was the exact player he is, but he was in TFC's academy, he probably would have been stuck behind Giovinco and Altidore and not gotten a chance. As it stands, he got drafted by a team that was able to make use of him (I know he had to wait to get his chance). Same with Kyle Bekker. He was drafted by a team (TFC) that thought they could use him. Manjrekar James went over to Hungary (if I recall correctly) where he could be used. Players are graduating from Sigma at lots of different levels, and are free to go where that level of player, in that position, is needed.

[Complete Homer]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

With the player budget that's being rumored, no way. CPL will be NASL level at the very least, most likely hire if they don't get over ambitious with the domestic quotas

For the rest, I agree that forcing MLS2 teams in D3 is a horrible idea.

I'm worried about the quotas. Regardless, they won't be so far above USL at launch that I'd be confident that CPL would pummel USL, simply because the quota and the fact that it's an unproven league will mean that budget won't be able to be stretched as far initially 

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, Kent said:

I wonder if this is actually true. Part of the good thing about Sigma is players can go where they are needed. For example, if Cyle Larin was the exact player he is, but he was in TFC's academy, he probably would have been stuck behind Giovinco and Altidore and not gotten a chance. As it stands, he got drafted by a team that was able to make use of him (I know he had to wait to get his chance). Same with Kyle Bekker. He was drafted by a team (TFC) that thought they could use him. Manjrekar James went over to Hungary (if I recall correctly) where he could be used. Players are graduating from Sigma at lots of different levels, and are free to go where that level of player, in that position, is needed.

I wish I could find the source, but I don't think the idea was to give Hamilton a right of first refusal, but that Sigma felt it was producing more pro-capable players than were getting picked up, and wanted a streamlined way forward for those guys

Granted, I can't even find the source. Maybe it was back when Hamilton was still considering going it alone in the NASL

[Kent]

7 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I wish I could find the source, but I don't think the idea was to give Hamilton a right of first refusal, but that Sigma felt it was producing more pro-capable players than were getting picked up, and wanted a streamlined way forward for those guys

Granted, I can't even find the source. Maybe it was back when Hamilton was still considering going it alone in the NASL

I remember rumors of the Sigma/Hamilton thing too, but I don't remember there being specifics about it. I just heard that Sigma could be used as Hamilton's academy.

I think if a CPL does start up, that would greatly help Sigma's concern about not enough pro-capable players getting picked up. They wouldn't need a relationship with a specific team, because any of the 6-8ish teams could sign or draft, whatever the case may be, the players that Sigma produces.

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I'm worried about the quotas. Regardless, they won't be so far above USL at launch that I'd be confident that CPL would pummel USL, simply because the quota and the fact that it's an unproven league will mean that budget won't be able to be stretched as far initially 

I'm worried about the quotas too as it's one of the deciding factors on the quality of the product. CSA would have to take those investors input under considerations as they are the ones taking all the risks here.

Let's put soccer aside for a minute and just talk business. Investors with very deep pockets will be investing in this league and expect not to turn a profits for a few years while their assets gain in value. Some of them might not be soccer genius but they have consultants/advisors filling the blanks for them. From a business point of view, the investors have a huge say on this point. Mediocrity on the field means less revenues, damaged brand and credibility. They will want quality and for the CSA to lay down the law and force 75% with our small pool of quality domestic players screams disaster. You can bet that investors who are really the ones assuming all the risks will seek to reduce it initially, that's if the CSA hasn't already came to the same conclusion already.  There's one constant on this planet "money talks". No one would be interested in spending at MLS level and have USL quality on the field. I get the skepticism because this is very new to us, but I think we should give ourselves a little more credit than this.

Also, they can look at the history of MLS to see what worked and what didn't work so well and avoid the same mistakes.

Again, money talks. If they pay NASL/MLS range on players, that's the range of quality they will expect. Sure, we won't see $7M DP like Giovinco but a $426k Piatti is definitely realistic and that comes down to scouting.

I listed above that ironically, International Canadians might be the one's they'll have to overpay for because "believe it or not", the founding teams will be courting the whole lots of them. So that winter 2018 transfer window will be the most bizarre one ever due to CPL teams will want (rightfully so) those guys as their starters and they are far from USL level, same for MLS Canadians that will be loaned to CPL.

Sorry for the rant, but no way CPL starts at USL level.

[zen]

23 minutes ago, Kent said:

I wonder if this is actually true. Part of the good thing about Sigma is players can go where they are needed. For example, if Cyle Larin was the exact player he is, but he was in TFC's academy, he probably would have been stuck behind Giovinco and Altidore and not gotten a chance. As it stands, he got drafted by a team that was able to make use of him (I know he had to wait to get his chance). Same with Kyle Bekker. He was drafted by a team (TFC) that thought they could use him. Manjrekar James went over to Hungary (if I recall correctly) where he could be used. Players are graduating from Sigma at lots of different levels, and are free to go where that level of player, in that position, is needed.

Yeah, there's some truth to that. I think in a professional environment academy players only make it if they are good enough and they are needed. I don't think Sigma having a professional team will stop them from doing what they believe is best for players. Loans and buy back clauses are always an option, and that should let players move to places they are needed as opposed to being stuck on the bench. MLS doesn't make use of Loans and buy back clauses well enough imho.