Ansem Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I decided to create this topic since I believe that it takes more than a Division 1 league to improve our national program, the whole pyramid needs to be efficient, coherent and focused on developing high caliber talent. There's no denying that a CPL league will change the landscape of Canadian Football forever, so let’s discuss and share ideas & vision of what the new pyramid should look like when/if CPL starts with the assumption that the CSA will not sanction teams under the USSF outside of the 3 MLS clubs (provided MLS fix the status of Canadian players). *Feel free to copy and edit what I did below **This thread is for discussions, ideas, debate and entertainment. I do not claim that what I posted below will happen nor do I claim to have any information from an unknown source** Division I Canadian Premier League: Rumoured to start with 6 to 8 teams, ideally, the league should aim to be in the most populous metropolitan areas in Canada in the long term. Owners are rumored to be in the billions range in terms of net worth. Every province would be covered in the long term except for Prince Edward Island. No CPL team would be facing relegation. Toronto, Montreal-Downtown, Vancouver-Surrey, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, Quebec City, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge, London, Halifax, Victoria, Windsor, Saskatoon, Regina, Moncton (Natural rivalry with Halifax), St John's Nfld Question for you guys: Should the 18th spot be reserved for a division 2 team? The "Canadian Championship League" division 2 champion would get the division II cup and a 1 season ticket to CPL. This would provide increased exposure and revenues while the players being exposed to higher quality of play. Since no CPL Team could be regulated, that team would be required to defend their spot against next year Division II Champion. Good idea or bad? Players: Due to the initial smaller pool of players, most people on the forum prefer around 40% for Canadian quota with a 5% increase as the talent pool expands to have a level of play between NASL and MLS initially. International Canadian players not playing consistent minutes and playing in Tier 3 or lower of European & South American Leagues would most likely be the first to be targeted. MLS clubs would also loan Canadian players not playing regularly to CPL. The salary cap being rumored to be in the ballpark of MLS would attract many Canadian International players to come home as well. Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup: Canadian Premier League Cup International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic and League Cup) Division II Canadian Championship League: Since the CPL owners are rumored to be in the "billion" range, a division II would be perfect in terms of developing that "club culture" and make it accessible to multi-millionaires investors who wish to own a soccer club in areas more suited to their capacity to spend. I think a healthy pyramid needs 2 independent top 2 levels where measures can be implemented to further develop elite and quality players. I'm avoiding duplicating teams in the same cities as this should be only down the road if demands warrants it. Those cities below all have a population above 100K according to 2011 census and 2016 municipalities census except Nanaimo at an estimate of 98k. MLS' USL Teams would be accepted only at Division II Level Potential locations: TFC II, Vancouver Whitecaps FC, FC Montreal, Peel-Halton (Mississauga), Durham (Oshawa), York Region (Richmond Hill), St. Catharines-Niagara, Sherbrooke, Barrie, Kelowna, Abbotsford, Kingston, Sudbury, Saguenay, Trois-Rivières, Guelph, Red Deer, Lethbridge, Thunder Bay, Brantford, Peterborough, Saint John NB, Chatam-Kent, Cape Breton Players: Quotas determined by the CSA. That quota should take in consideration the remaining pool of players remaining that haven't joined MLS or CPL. Pay range should be around USL and the initial of play pursued should be in the ballpark of USL. Just like CPL, the % of increase for Canadians should follow the rate of increase of "talented USL level players". My point is, it shouldn't be a "free for all" just because you're a Canadian players. The best of the best should push each other's limits for a spot... even more so in CPL where I think International players have the best chance to crack those rosters. Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic) Question for you guys: Should the champion be allowed to automatically qualify to the V Cup round where MLS and CPL clubs would be entering the tournament? Good idea or bad? Division III Soccer League Championship: Since the CSA had made a “CHL model” league as their priority, I opted to include it her as division III. A total revamp of this tier would require basic things like identifying the right markets, have games make it on TV, all game be available on stream etc… CPL & Division II and MLS Academies should be added here, same for PDL teams. Soccer League Memorial Cup: Tournament for the host city team and the 3 league champions. Première ligue de soccer du Québec: Just like in junior hockey, this is where the Maritimes would get covered at this level. Teams: AS Blainville, FC Gatineau, Lakeshore SC (Kirkland, Montreal West Island), FC Lanaudiere (Terrebonne), CS Longueuil, CS Mont-Royal Outremont, Celtix du Haut-Richelieu (2017), Quebec Dynamo (2017) Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup: Coupe de la Ligue + Soccer League Memorial Cup International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic) League1 Ontario: Covers Ontario Teams: FC London (Should be a CPL Market), Windsor Stars (Should be a CPL Market) North Mississauga SC, Oakville Blue Devils, ProStars FC (Brampton), Sanjaxx Lions (Toronto), Sigma FC (Mississauga), Toronto FC Academy, Aurora United, Durham United (Pickering), Kingston Clippers, Master’s Futbol (Scarborough), North Toronto Nitros (Varsity), Toronto Skillz FC (Scarborough), Vaughan Azzurri, Woodbridge Strikers Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup: League1 Ontario Cup + Soccer League Memorial Cup International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic Cup) Western Soccer League: This should be rebuilt from scratch and be inspired from the Western Hockey League model. Teams: WSA Winnipeg, Victoria Highlanders, Calgary Foothills FC and academies and more... Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup: Western League Cup + Soccer League Memorial Cup International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic) Division IV Canadian Interuniversity Sport men's soccer: Universities should partner with the CSA to find ways to upgrade what’s being done at this level or even fall under the CSA completely if necessary with the emphasis on world class coaching and training. I see this tier as practical level where kids that weren’t discovered/signed by higher tiers academy (falling through the cracks) can still continue their development instead of falling in “limbo” and losing potentially late bloomers & good players that could fill a D2 depth role or even crack D1 one day. We might not develop a Messi type of player, but we could develop a once Larin type of player and most likely an all around good depth players. The season being from Labour day to around December could mean that those players could play in the summer for a Division III team for those who are good enough to make the team via tryouts or draft formula. 49 teams divided in 4 conferences: I listed all the teams and divisions below because it’s truly striking how many teams are at that level and quite frankly, not many of us even knew that they all existed. It’s up to the CSA with the universities to find ways to turn this into a legit elite development tier catching potentially good players from the minor leagues through world class coaching and training. Regular Season: 8 to 9 weeks long starting on Labour Day weekend (12-16 games) Playoffs: inter-conference playoffs competing for the Sam Davidson Memorial Trophy. Should it be a "December madness" instead? League Cup: Sam Davidson Memorial Trophy Atlantic University Sport :Acadia Axemen, Cape Breton Capers, Dalhousie Tigers, Memorial Sea-Hawks, Moncton Aigles Bleu, Mount Allison Mounties, New Brunswick Varsity Reds, Saint Mary’s Huskies and St. Francis Xavier X-Men Canada West Universities Athletic Association Pacific Division: BC Thunderbirds, BC Okanagan Heat, Fraser Valley Cascades, Nothern BC Timberwolves, Thomson Rivers WolfPack, Trinity Western Spartans, Victoria Vikes Prairie Division: Alberta Golden Bears, Calgary Dinos, Lethbridge Pronghorns, MacEwan Griffins, Mount Royal Cougars, Saskatchewan Huskies, Winnipeg Wesmern. Ontario University Athletics East Division: Carleton Ravens, Laurentian Voyageurs, Nipissing Lakers, U of Ontario Institute of Technology Ridgebacks, Queen’s Gaels, Royal Military College Paladins, Ryerson Rams, U of T Varsity Blues, Trent Excalibur West Division: Algoma Thunderbirds, Brock Badgers, Guelph Gryphons, McMaster Marauders, Waterloo Warriors, Western Ontario Mustangs, Wilfrid Laurier Golden Hawks, Windsor Lancers, York Lions Réseau du sport étudiant du Québec Concordia Stingers, Laval Rouge et Or, McGill Redmen, U of Montreal Carabins, Sherbrooke Vert et Or, UQAM Citadins, Trois-Rivières Patriotes *Quebec’s CEGEPs have their soccer league which cover students between high school and university level. (Sainte-Foy, Garneau, St-Lambert, Ahuntsic, John Abbott, Vanier, Dawson, Montmorency, Lionel-Groulx) Division V and lower -Amateur level including all levels of minor leagues under the CSA and provincial entities -MLS and CPL club would most likely open academies for different group age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 I don't realistically see the CPL exceeding 10 teams in the foreseeable future, if the CSA wants to maintain a professional, D1 image. Even 8 I'd be pleasantly surprised with, and would be absolutely shocked (and simultaneously worried) if it ever hit 12. The balance between quality and quantity will be very tenuous for this league, especially to start, and will certainly be less than many hope. No need to completely tip the scale over. If we ever see a exclusively-Canadian D2 (which seems to be on no one's radar), it might most realistically take the form of a Canada East L1O-PLSQ superleague, with maybe 8 top high-performing and high-drawing L1O and PLSQ teams (hopefully something like your FCLs eventually), where I wouldn't necessarily take pro/rel down to D3 off the table. Actual semi-pro. Taking the cream of the D3 crop and allowing them to aim higher would be a wonderfully organic way of growing the pyramid from the bottom up. Ideally you'd balance this out with an equivalent Canada West D2, with the two leagues meeting in a D2 national championship, but seeing as they can't even get D3 leagues organized out west - not to mention PLSQ's inability to give up any teams to a D2 setup while maintaining a functioning league of their own - I'm tempted to classify this as a pipedream. Alternatively, the CSA might hammer out some agreement with USL to sanction them as D2 in Canada, allowing the MLS-Bs and some smaller markets to get some D2 teams running in a stable league (even taking said teams into a Canada-only end-of-year playoff). While this may make sense on the surface, and while it may help the teams with some stability, the CSA would probably be unhappy with the lack of control over player development - especially considering their current independence-or-bust philosophy. D3 would be your L1O, PLSQ, and ideally two leagues out west (BC & Prairies) for glorious balance. The WHL example you list above (leaving only one league out west) might end up being more realistic, though I see the BC D3 teams (should any ever exist) balking at the long travel distances to the prairies if they can get away with a bus ride to Kamloops instead. I don't see the CSA formally going to a D4 level; if anything they'll leave it to the provinces to just designate their top provincial leagues as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 4 hours ago, Ansem said: Question for you guys: Should the 18th spot be reserved for a division 2 team? The "Canadian Championship League" division 2 champion would get the division II cup and a 1 season ticket to CPL. This would provide increased exposure and revenues while the players being exposed to higher quality of play. Since no CPL Team could be regulated, that team would be required to defend their spot against next year Division II Champion. Good idea or bad? If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying there would be 17 legit CPL teams, and one guest team. That guest team could end up doing well, say top half of the league, but still be the only team to face relegation? Sorry, but I think that is a very bad idea. It sounds like you want to come up with a way to have promotion without relegation, but that just doesn't work, at least not after you have hit your max number of teams in D1. As for D2, East and West leagues with D3 promoted teams as Gopherbashi suggests, otherwise an all reserve team league are the only things close to viable in my opinion. Both of those are probably at least a generation away (15 to 30 years away being as optimistic as I can). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Oh yeah I guess a reserve league would be your other D2 choice. Derp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 14 hours ago, Gopherbashi said: D1 I think for CPL to be a true Canadian League, a team per provinces except for Prince Edward Island would be the minimum goal in a mid/long term objective. That's 9 teams plus some provinces that would be capable of supporting 2. I put Saskatoon in there because I thought it would be a smart way to get the fanbase to grow faster and get casual fans hooked by creating a rivalry between both cities. Those kinds of rivalries are huge factor that get people interested. The more I read it, the more it makes sense to me that in the long term (10 years +), we could get 16 to 18 teams. Those markets I've identified ave the population size and most municipalities are growing rapidly. Of course, that's pending the league not folding and doing the marketing right. If the initial cities can get a fan response in the ballpark of TFC when they joined MLS in 2008, the league can succeed and expand. D2 - D3 Initially, I was just going to put our D3 as D2 and built from there. Then a friend told me that the current level of play in our D3 is well below USL level and barely D4. You could see how MLS B Teams could resist this. So I came up with 2 scenarios as you perfectly pointed out that D3 aren't close to get their act together. Division 2 = MLS + CPL B Teams --> "AHL type league" That would be the easiest thing to do. MLS and CPL have the money to have their B Team travel, compete and world class training. My only struggle here was that getting people to make CPL a success is a huge challenge, not because it can't be done but because we're in the dark here and just have no idea how people will receive it. An "AHL" type league would work but you'd have limited growth...or perhaps, it's irrelevant as MLS and CPL teams have the mean to make it work. These are the things that should be done. Those B Teams should be implemented in medium size market, away from MLS and CPL location to avoid saturating the same market. Also, exposing those markets to a true D2 league also helps both MLS and CPL in terms of exposure. ( Peel-Halton (Mississauga), Durham (Oshawa), York Region (Richmond Hill), St. Catharines-Niagara,Sherbrooke, Barrie, Kelowna, Abbotsford, Kingston, Sudbury, Saguenay, Trois-Rivières, Guelph, Red Deer, Lethbridge, Thunder Bay, Brantford, Peterborough, Saint John NB, Chatam-Kent, Cape Breton ) They shouldn't be called "B Teams" or "#2". Although it's totally fine if they belong to CPL and MLS teams, those D2 teams should make an active effort to relate to the medium size market where they are located like AHL teams do. The name and uniforms shouldn't be identical to the main team. Actively trying to have those teams winning and put up a show for the fans, not just used them as reserve only and just be purely developmental. The NHL-AHL does that very well. Division 2= it's own independent league like English Championship It's easily an easier sell than a reserve league to medium markets. However, I have to agree that getting more investors willing to start a team at that level is very difficult and would have need to be planned alongside the CPL, which doesn't seems to be the case. CPL 2 seems much more likely and granted realistic...but one can dream right? Problem I see with CPL 2 are the following Promotion-Relegation or any creative formula are out of the question I just can't seem to wrap my mind on how this would work in an expanded V Cup. Don't get me wrong, it's exciting when a team like Queen's Park Rangers beats Chelsea in the FA cup, but it's counter-productive to have FC Montreal defeat TFC in a V Cup final. From a marketing point of view, there's a lot of wrong here. In a nutshell Successful D2 needs A name like "Canadian Championship League" instead of CPL 2 Teams should be affiliates to CPL and MLS teams, not reserve and B Teams Affiliated teams have exclusive players transfer them but under t rules which avoid scenarios the main team just empty the of its best elements at any given time. Affiliated teams under MLS and CPL should have their own identity to appeal to the local market. Avoid being in the same market as the main team. This way, it's a bit better in terms of perception. D3 A true mess that will take years to shape into a true CHL type structure. Just like universities does, you convinced me there should be leagues under a memorial cup. (Quebec-Maritimes, Ontario, Prairies, Pacific). Perhaps a Memorial Cup winner could get promoted to D2 D4 Probably will never happen at university level, but the CSA should definitely partner with CIS to ensure that world class coaching is provided so those players could develop into elites athletes capable of playing in D3 or D2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 14 hours ago, Kent said: If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying there would be 17 legit CPL teams, and one guest team. That guest team could end up doing well, say top half of the league, but still be the only team to face relegation? Sorry, but I think that is a very bad idea. It sounds like you want to come up with a way to have promotion without relegation, but that just doesn't work, at least not after you have hit your max number of teams in D1. As for D2, East and West leagues with D3 promoted teams as Gopherbashi suggests, otherwise an all reserve team league are the only things close to viable in my opinion. Both of those are probably at least a generation away (15 to 30 years away being as optimistic as I can). Seems like Pro/Rel is a generation away in CPL. This can't be done with a reserve league either but like you guys said, D2 and D3 having Pro/Rel would be a good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 There will be two MLS USL L1O/PLSQ/BC League/Alb-Sask-Man League CPL L1O/PLSQ/BC League/Alb-Sask-Man League Kind of like Australia's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 1 hour ago, matty said: There will be two MLS USL L1O/PLSQ/BC League/Alb-Sask-Man League CPL L1O/PLSQ/BC League/Alb-Sask-Man League Kind of like Australia's Seems to me that outside of the 3 MLS clubs, the CSA wants no part of the USSF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Without any equivalent level Canadian league and CPL not accepting B teams, where exactly would you want the MLS2 teams to go? I doubt the CSA is so anti-USSF that they would mess with the MLS2 teams. Matty's formulation seemed bang on to me. It's not neat and tidy, but realistically, at this point it will be two parallel pyramids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 37 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: Without any equivalent level Canadian league and CPL not accepting B teams, where exactly would you want the MLS2 teams to go? I doubt the CSA is so anti-USSF that they would mess with the MLS2 teams. Matty's formulation seemed bang on to me. It's not neat and tidy, but realistically, at this point it will be two parallel pyramids I'm skeptical of that because the CSA wouldn't have blocked new teams from joining USL if that was the case. CSA been pretty vocal about not allowing new teams from joining USSF leagues. I'm thinking something's up and as I highlighted above, an AHL type of league wouldn't be that hard to set up by CPL owners and allowing MLS B teams to join it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, Ansem said: I'm skeptical of that because the CSA wouldn't have blocked new teams from joining USL if that was the case. CSA been pretty vocal about not allowing new teams from joining USSF leagues. I'm thinking something's up and as I highlighted above, an AHL type of league wouldn't be that hard to set up by CPL owners and allowing MLS B teams to join it I don't mean to say that any new USL teams would come about, just that they'd probably just leave the MLS2 teams be. A CPL B league is a nice vision, but if that ever happens, I feel confident that it is an extremely long time away. Let's get CPL stable and actually better than USL before thinking of a B league that isn't a step down from USL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: I don't mean to say that any new USL teams would come about, just that they'd probably just leave the MLS2 teams be. A CPL B league is a nice vision, but if that ever happens, I feel confident that it is an extremely long time away. Let's get CPL stable and actually better than USL before thinking of a B league that isn't a step down from USL It was MLSE who wanted in the CPL. Of course hey were turned down. So a CPL 2 is the only way their B teams would be included. MLS 2 teams staying in USL is totally up to the CSA. If CPL 2 ever gets started, no way they would just let them be in USL Also, wasn't it rumored that CPL teams would be required to have Academies? CPL having B teams is also a no Brainer and in their best interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 14 hours ago, Ansem said: It was MLSE who wanted in the CPL. Of course hey were turned down. So a CPL 2 is the only way their B teams would be included. MLS 2 teams staying in USL is totally up to the CSA. If CPL 2 ever gets started, no way they would just let them be in USL Also, wasn't it rumored that CPL teams would be required to have Academies? CPL having B teams is also a no Brainer and in their best interest. Right, but any academy teams are probably L1O, PLSQ, or PDL bound (depending on region). The MLS2 teams are above that, and I don't think the CSA would want to bring down their level of play significantly solely to get them out of USSF. The USL teams, just like their parent clubs, can be anomalies grandfather claused in, I don't see it as a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Ansem, you keep bringing up the name Canadian Championship as a name for the D2. Let me just say I personally really hate that naming that they have in England. I like Premier for the top league. I hated it a little back when the 2nd tier was called the First division (premier means first. So the top two leagues were effectively both named first). Then I hated it even more when they changed it again to the Championship at 2nd tier and the third tier was called League One (L1O is OK because it is for Ontario, not all of Canada). Someone wins the Premier league championship, then someone else wins the... um... Championship championship? I also wouldn't like CPL2. That essentially translates to the second first division. C2L or something similar if somehow we end up with a 2nd tier league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 11 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: Right, but any academy teams are probably L1O, PLSQ, or PDL bound (depending on region). The MLS2 teams are above that, and I don't think the CSA would want to bring down their level of play significantly solely to get them out of USSF. The USL teams, just like their parent clubs, can be anomalies grandfather caused in, I don't see it as a problem It's hard to believe that investors in the ballpark of the billions range would just settle for academies in the huge mess that is the D3 level. A D2 feeding the D1 team is necessary if they are truly serious about being a true Division which seems to be their intent. I believe that the CPL will fill both D1 and D2 vacuum. AHL might be unimpressive but no one can argue that it works and produced results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 13 hours ago, Ansem said: It's hard to believe that investors in the ballpark of the billions range would just settle for academies in the huge mess that is the D3 level. A D2 feeding the D1 team is necessary if they are truly serious about being a true Division which seems to be their intent. I believe that the CPL will fill both D1 and D2 vacuum. AHL might be unimpressive but no one can argue that it works and produced results. Even if they are all billionaires , I doubt CPL will be much more than a fun side project, and as CPL itself will probably lose money long term, I'd be surprised if they were eager to lose money long term on a second tier as well. I'd be happy to be wrong of course I think a reasonable expectation is L1O/etc academy teams. TFC uses L1O and doesn't dominate, though the L1O team is a mix of 16-20 year olds Edit: I'd also point out that AHL doesn't do massive amounts for development, that's much more more the domain of CHL, which L1O is attempting to emulate to a degree Edit: apparently autocorrect changes "much more" to Kucherov on my phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Everyone above is correct that the reality will be two pyramids operating in parallel; the Canadian one and the American one. It's probably the way I'll display things on the wiki pages if/when the CPL launches. We can call D1 the Canadian Championship and D2 the Maple Sippy Cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 14 hours ago, Ansem said: Phone glitch 1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said: Everyone above is correct that the reality will be two pyramids operating in parallel; the Canadian one and the American one. It's probably the way I'll display things on the wiki pages if/when the CPL launches. We can call D1 the Canadian Championship and D2 the Maple Sippy Cup However, as much as MLS/USL will be a separate pyramid from CPL/L1O/etc in practice, it will be interesting to see how the CSA formulates their official representation of the pyramid. I suspect that, assuming NASL survives and USL gets USSF D2 status, the pyramid will be officially: 1. MLS and CPL 2. NASL and USL 3. L1O, PLSQ, PDL, maybe one day a western league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 I don't even know of an official modern-day formulation that's not entirely piecemeal from different sources, so I doubt the CSA will get that intricate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 The the CSA approach is truly bizarre... They seemed adamant at not sanctioning new teams to NASL and USL. If D2 was to be in USL from the get go, why not work on a D2 Canadian Division and expand in mid size markets with them being affiliated with CPL Teams? Due to the above scenario being on no one's radar, that's why either CPL 2 or CSA working some king of magic to bring PLSQ and L1O up into USL level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Perhaps a better idea than simply listing cities for each division or names for leagues would be to think about what kind of standards we would realistically hope or expect to see at the D1, D2, and D3 levels. Without a solid understanding of what those levels would mean in this country, they're kind of a meaningless descriptor. D1 could be (for example) 8,000 average attendance, national TV capability, soccer-only lines, academy system, $1.5m player budget, turf field, maybe even indoor stadium or bubble for winter conditions, etc etc. D2 could then be 1000-2000 attendance, local TV capability, turf, $250k player budget, youth academy. D3 could be 250 average attendance, webstreaming & archive of games, $25k player budget. Once we have an idea of what we could expect to see at these levels, it would become easier to determine (ie. argue about) how realistic those expectations are, how widespread teams at those levels could be, and how many teams we could possibly be looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 I think it would be amazing and somewhat ironic, if we could have CPL affiliates in the USL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 20 hours ago, Gopherbashi said: Perhaps a better idea than simply listing cities for each division or names for leagues would be to think about what kind of standards we would realistically hope or expect to see at the D1, D2, and D3 levels. Without a solid understanding of what those levels would mean in this country, they're kind of a meaningless descriptor. D1 could be (for example) 8,000 average attendance, national TV capability, soccer-only lines, academy system, $1.5m player budget, turf field, maybe even indoor stadium or bubble for winter conditions, etc etc. D2 could then be 1000-2000 attendance, local TV capability, turf, $250k player budget, youth academy. D3 could be 250 average attendance, webstreaming & archive of games, $25k player budget. Once we have an idea of what we could expect to see at these levels, it would become easier to determine (ie. argue about) how realistic those expectations are, how widespread teams at those levels could be, and how many teams we could possibly be looking at. Good idea. I'd throw in net worth requirements for owners. It's a part of the USSF division requirements, and from what has been bounced around for CPL, I suspect there is one in place for D1 at least. Annual budget is a proxy to a certain extent, but doesn't differentiate well between owners who are spending because they can and owners spending recklessly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted November 1, 2016 Author Share Posted November 1, 2016 On 10/30/2016 at 6:23 PM, Gopherbashi said: Perhaps a better idea than simply listing cities for each division or names for leagues would be to think about what kind of standards we would realistically hope or expect to see at the D1, D2, and D3 levels. Without a solid understanding of what those levels would mean in this country, they're kind of a meaningless descriptor. D1 could be (for example) 8,000 average attendance, national TV capability, soccer-only lines, academy system, $1.5m player budget, turf field, maybe even indoor stadium or bubble for winter conditions, etc etc. D2 could then be 1000-2000 attendance, local TV capability, turf, $250k player budget, youth academy. D3 could be 250 average attendance, webstreaming & archive of games, $25k player budget. Once we have an idea of what we could expect to see at these levels, it would become easier to determine (ie. argue about) how realistic those expectations are, how widespread teams at those levels could be, and how many teams we could possibly be looking at. Ok will be working on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted November 1, 2016 Author Share Posted November 1, 2016 ***Amendment*** Division I Canadian Premier League: Rumored to start with 6 to 8 teams, ideally, the league should aim to be in the most populous metropolitan areas in Canada in the long term. Owners are rumored to be in the billions range in terms of net worth. Every province would be covered in the long term except for Prince Edward Island. No CPL team would be facing relegation. Attendance: This is very hard to determine what`s going to happen. We can all agree that Soccer has never been this hot in Canada in terms of participation and attendance in major events and MLS. Last time we had a national league, the sport was taking a HUGE backseat to hockey, hence the CSA neglecting it in total indifference for years. Our demographic has profoundly changed over the years which explains in part the rise of soccer in this country. The only data we have are attendances at international tournaments and MLS. Attendance was surprisingly very high and a pleasant surprised during minor world cups and Women`s world cup in markets that are not traditionally known for their support for soccer. (2015 Women`s World Cup Group stage highlights: Winnipeg = between 14k to 26k spectators & Moncton=between 7100 spectators to 13k). Let`s be honest... NASL and USL has not gave a reason for fans in Edmonton and Ottawa much reason to follow the league. Don`t get me wrong, they like their team but could care less about the league. It was the same in Montreal when they were in NASL. Canadians wants to cheer their own and support the highest level. MLS teams are a success (Locally) at the gate and draw more fans on TV when Canadian clubs play each other (locally). Fans across Canada have little reason to cheer teams that are in the big 3 cities, far from them and filled with Americans. MLS doesn't have the MLB history and one could argue the Raptors are Canada`s team only during playoff time. I think the league will aim for 10k average (which is usually the benchmark to be consider a major league but I`m going to be optimistic and predict an average of 12k for the first season (around half of the CFL 24,415 in 2015). MLS initial season was very strong as well. New products attracts. TV Coverage: National (A combination of CBC and TSN would be ideal), perhaps other countries will be interested in taking a look as we`re playing outside of European seasons. Venues: Current CFL stadiums initially and existing fields. That`s going to be the Canadian reality at first, same for potential expansion teams. MLS had to go through the same growing pain with some of them still playing in NFL stadiums... and don`t get me started with Yankee Stadium (embarrassing). A winning world cup bid would be the only thing that would accelerate the construction of new soccer specific stadiums and/or significant upgrades. Otherwise, the growth and success of the league will dictate the future of the stadiums in CPL. Moncton field (2015 World Cup configuration) would be the bare minimum to be part of CPL. Big CFL stadiums should imitate BC Place and close the upper sections unless they sell enough tickets. Salary Structure: It`s rumored to be in the ballpark of the MLS who`s at $3.49M not counting DP. Considering that CFL is at $5.1M, I think around $3M+ makes sense. Net worth requirements for owners: Billion ballpark Level of play: I predict above NASL but under MLS, so above the middle initially. That`s totally under CSA and CPL control due to these factors: Canadian players: CPL goal should be to target the best Canadian International players not playing in the top 2 Tier leagues and those not seeing enough minutes to come home. Believe it or not, they might be the most expensive commodity for CPL and don`t be surprised if we overpay for a Olivier Occean. Filling the league with USL and Ligue 1 Ontario would be a catastrophe. Investors are smart enough to know that mediocre quality on the field will hurt their wallet and credibility. That will be #1 priority. MLS Canadians that are subs should be #2, then starting NASL Canadians #3. Sub NASL and USL should be D2. Also, I wouldn't be surprised that in the 2018 winter transfer window, clubs from all around the world line up to loan their Canadians players to CPL as MLS is expected to do. Domestic Quota: It should be set in conjuncture of how many of those quality Canadian internationals you got to come back home. 35% to 40% max seems right. Anything above that and you're drastically reducing the quality of play, which will hurt the league`s potential revenues and credibility. Can`t have that, neither will the investors. Putting players in situations they aren't ready for will not help them get better, it might actually make them worse. I expect the CSA to be fully aware of our current pool of players and set the quotas accordingly. Salary: Rumored to be in the ballpark of MLS with investors in the range of billions. Key staff: This will be another cornerstone of the matter. To go back to salaries, I`m not worried about spending on players but more so on their willingness to spend on key staff members like coaches, managers and scouts. If the team is mismanaged and built all wrong, it doesn't matter how much money you pay your players, it will be horrible on the pitch (wink at Pre-Shanahan Maples Leafs, Pre-Ujiri Raptors, Pre-Bazbetchenko TFC) Scouting: If CPL wants to be successful, efficiency through scouting is key. Best example is Montreal Impact signing Ignatio Piatti from Argentina. He was playing D2 over there and now, he`s playing like a $7.5M DP at the discounted price of $426k a year. It`s a STEAL. CPL ability to find cost effective players like Piatti could exceed expectations. Potential location rationale: A true Canadian League should logically aim to have at least a team in every provinces except PEI and the territories. Due to the start date being 2018 and the league aiming at looking like a major league from the start, these locations having the existing infrastructure makes them the most likely choice: Hamilton: Tim Horton Field Toronto: Unless they can pull a miracle (or a deal with MLSE) and get BMO Field, Varsity makes the most sense from a location point of view and overall presentation/1st impression of the league. Renovations (Temporary or permanent upgrades) could be done in time for 2018. York Stadium would be the third choice as a subway station will open at York University in 2017 but would require significant work. Anything else would be a poor choice from a TV perspective and attracting fans to the stadium. Ottawa: TD Place Calgary: McMahon Stadium (expecting big crowds for an Edmonton vs Calgary game)...until something happens with CalgaryNext Edmonton: Expanding Clarke Stadium to 10,000 would be wise. Big crowds are to be expected whenever Calgary visits Quebec City: PEPS Telus Stadium : Sets the stage for a rivalry that transcends sports with Montreal. A Quebec City team might be the cornerstone on making a Montreal franchise a very attractive market for an owner like the Molsons (Montreal Canadiens) to want to cash in while the Montreal Impact are looking on the outside (with tears), unable to take advantage of this instant rivalry. Montreal vs Quebec are automatic sellouts. Winnipeg: Investors Group Field Moncton: Moncton Stadium (2015 World Cup configuration) Regina: Mosaic Stadium (In this CFL craze market, unless the Roughriders are involved, I`m skeptical about them starting in 2018) Potential Expansion Candidates (if the league is a success): Montreal-Downtown (Percival-Molson Stadium), Vancouver-Surrey, Halifax, Victoria, Windsor, Saskatoon, London, St John's Nfld, Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge:(The corporate presence combined with the province turning this area into the north Silicon Valley with projects like the Waterloo LRT, High Speed Train project Toronto-Pearson-Kitchener/Waterloo-London and GO RER makes it an attractive market too good to ignore) Players: Due to the initial smaller pool of players, most people on the forum prefer around 40% for Canadian quota with a 5% increase as the talent pool expands to have a level of play between NASL and MLS initially. International Canadian players not playing consistent minutes and playing in Tier 3 or lower of European & South American Leagues would most likely be the first to be targeted. MLS clubs would also loan Canadian players not playing regularly to CPL. The salary cap being rumored to be in the ballpark of MLS would attract many Canadian International players to come home as well. Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship (CONCACAF Champions League spot) League Cup: Canadian Premier League Cup (CONCACAF Champions League spot) International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic and League Cup) Division II Canadian Championship League: My first idea was to give our D3 the D2 status but the gap in quality is too big. Then I thought about a D2 separate league with clubs in mid-size markets. That would be great but unlikely at this point. A CPL 2 is much more realistic. Sure we could take our current D3 and upgrade them but the gap is way too big for that. An in between level is needed and this might be one of the major reason for CPL to be so selective on their owners and wanting them to have deep deep pockets. A D2 around USL level initially is a minimum and our D3 is far from there. The (AHL) type of league is a proven model in hockey, baseball and basketball to feed the D1 teams with quality/D1 ready players and provide a higher level of play for D3 players to improve and perhaps get ready for CPL. Establishing that league via the teams` top academy is the easiest path to adopt. Sure we could do this through USL but the CSA seems keen on controlling every aspects of Canadian soccer and they are 100% right. The easiest path is not always the best one...growing pains. MLS' USL Teams would be accepted only at Division II Level. Moving the 3 USL Canadian teams is a perfect place to start the D2 league. Then CPL teams would have to set up D2 teams and have them compete providing them with the necessary environment to get them ready for D1. Just like AHL, the league would operate from mid size markets and have a distinctive identity to relate to their home markets but they would be under a CPL and MLS team. The CSA sending all those signals about being against new teams getting sanctioned to play in a USSF leagues is what make me believe that a CPL 2 will be established instead. Attendance: I did an attendance average calculation excluding the teams not drawing even 1000 in avg. The result would be 3904 instead of 3369. Clearly, this can be improved by a D2 league setting clear standards and actually choosing the right markets for these teams. We can all agree that duplicating teams in the same city and putting them in poor fields/stadiums hurts and limits the attendance. Since the league will be gate driven, occupying midsize markets that are far enough from CPL cities should drastically improve attendance. AHL is a great model as they have their own management team and they do their own marketing to attract and retain fans. There`s no reason why it can`t be done for our D2. In the short term however, between 2500 to 3000 due to the lack of medium size stadiums that would need to be increased by adding seats or built. Long term, we have big and strong midsize cities in Canada, I believe that attendance should aim to be between NASL and USL if the right markets are chosen and the team does the marketing job to attract people to the games with adequate capacity and infrastructure. TV Coverage: National coverage for V cup and playoffs, Local coverage for all the matches. Venues: University Stadiums would be realistic at the beginning. Some play on turf, others on grass. They could be expanded/upgraded as demand rises with and new smaller stadiums could be built where it`s necessary. Salary Structure: Around NASL lower tier bracket on average: ¨Players earn between $15,000 and $100,000 with most salaries below $40,000¨ Level of play: The goal should be USL Level, realistically lower as this is where applying a higher quota makes sense. Canadian players: Canadian players that are in USL, substitutes on NASL and lower international leagues should be targeted. In a nutshell, you want this league to feature Canadian players who already played/still playing pro. Filling D2 with amateur level players is the wrong move and defeats the purpose of what were are trying to achieve, which is excellence. Amateur players needs to earn D2 through their track-record in D3. Domestic Quota: Now`s the time to start with a high quota of Canadian players according to what`s available in our current pool. Salary: Around NASL lower tier bracket on average Potential location rationale: With CPL being gate driven, it`s unrealistic to expect lots of people to drive and fly to go see CPL games. That`s why bringing soccer to them via a D2 league and having access to those markets give the D1 owners a tighter grip on the untapped Canadian market who`s wants soccer. We have strong midsize cities in Canada and they should definitely be served targets for D2 teams to established themselves. Priorities would be for cities with University Stadiums/fields, which can be upgraded over time. Those cities below all have above 100k in population and fields that can be upgraded by just adding seats. Potential locations: TFC II, Vancouver Whitecaps FC II, FC Montreal needs to relocate to midsize markets. They should also consider identifying to their new market. Peel-Halton (Mississauga), Durham (Oshawa), York Region (Richmond Hill), Barrie, St. Catharines-Niagara, Sherbrooke, Kelowna, Abbotsford, Kingston, Sudbury, Saguenay, Trois-Rivières, Guelph, Red Deer, Lethbridge, Thunder Bay, Brantford, Peterborough, Saint John NB, Chatam-Kent, Cape Breton Players: The quota for domestic players graduating from D3 should be higher and be linked to the availability and quality of the current pool of players if we have excellence and quality in mind. Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic) Division III Soccer League Championship: Since the CSA has identified the restructuring of this tier as an CHL type league as one their priority, I opted to keep it as division III. A total revamp of this tier is needed and the CSA should be more proactive to make it happen, take over if necessary like Hockey Canada did. CPL and MLS Academies should be added here as well while PDL teams would most likely be transferred here, hopfully relocating in smaller markets. As I explained earlier, this level is too low to be Division 2 behind CPL. We`re missing an in-between level and the CSA seems adamant at avoiding the USSF leagues altogether. What this tier needs is a return to the basics: good management, world class coaching & training and good infrastructure to operate just like the CHL. Soccer League Memorial Cup: Tournament for the host city team and the 3 league champions. The winner should be rewarded with a promotion to D2 which would expose our best D3 to higher competition. Première ligue de soccer du Québec: Just like in junior hockey, this is where the Maritimes would get covered at this level. Teams: AS Blainville, FC Gatineau, Lakeshore SC (Kirkland, Montreal West Island), FC Lanaudiere (Terrebonne), CS Longueuil, CS Mont-Royal Outremont, Celtix du Haut-Richelieu (2017), Quebec Dynamo (2017) Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup: Coupe de la Ligue + Soccer League Memorial Cup International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic) League1 Ontario: Covers Ontario Teams: FC London (Should be a CPL Market), Windsor Stars (Should be a CPL Market) North Mississauga SC, Oakville Blue Devils, ProStars FC (Brampton), Sanjaxx Lions (Toronto), Sigma FC (Mississauga), Toronto FC Academy, Aurora United, Durham United (Pickering), Kingston Clippers, Master’s Futbol (Scarborough), North Toronto Nitros (Varsity), Toronto Skillz FC (Scarborough), Vaughan Azzurri, Woodbridge Strikers Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup: League1 Ontario Cup + Soccer League Memorial Cup International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic Cup) Western Soccer League: This should be rebuilt from scratch and be inspired from the Western Hockey League model. Teams: WSA Winnipeg, Victoria Highlanders, Calgary Foothills FC and academies and more... Domestic Cup: Canadian Championship League Cup: Western League Cup + Soccer League Memorial Cup International Cup: CONCACAF Champions League (via domestic) TV Coverage: Local coverage for all the matches where it`s possible and all matches needs to be available for streaming Venues: Current structure Salary Structure: Current structure Level of play: Current with objective to reduce the gap with USL CIS and CSA Partnership Canadian Interuniversity Sport men's soccer: Universities should partner with the CSA to find ways to upgrade what’s being done at this level or even fall under the CSA completely if necessary with the emphasis on world class coaching and training. I see this tier as practical level where kids that weren’t discovered/signed by higher tiers academy (falling through the cracks) can still continue their development instead of falling in “limbo” and losing potentially late bloomers & good players that could fill a D2 depth role or even crack D1 one day. We might not develop a Messi type of player, but we could develop a once Larin type of player and most likely an all around good depth players. The season being from Labour day to around December could mean that those players could play in the summer for a Division III team for those who are good enough to make the team via tryouts or draft formula. 49 teams divided in 4 conferences: I listed all the teams and divisions below because it’s truly striking how many teams are at that level and quite frankly, not many of us even knew that they all existed. It’s up to the CSA with the universities to find ways to turn this into a legit elite development tier catching potentially good players from the minor leagues through world class coaching and training. Regular Season: 8 to 9 weeks long starting on Labour Day weekend (12-16 games) Playoffs: inter-conference playoffs competing for the Sam Davidson Memorial Trophy. Should it be a "December madness" instead? League Cup: Sam Davidson Memorial Trophy Atlantic University Sport :Acadia Axemen, Cape Breton Capers, Dalhousie Tigers, Memorial Sea-Hawks, Moncton Aigles Bleu, Mount Allison Mounties, New Brunswick Varsity Reds, Saint Mary’s Huskies and St. Francis Xavier X-Men Canada West Universities Athletic Association Pacific Division: BC Thunderbirds, BC Okanagan Heat, Fraser Valley Cascades, Nothern BC Timberwolves, Thomson Rivers WolfPack, Trinity Western Spartans, Victoria Vikes Prairie Division: Alberta Golden Bears, Calgary Dinos, Lethbridge Pronghorns, MacEwan Griffins, Mount Royal Cougars, Saskatchewan Huskies, Winnipeg Wesmern. Ontario University Athletics East Division: Carleton Ravens, Laurentian Voyageurs, Nipissing Lakers, U of Ontario Institute of Technology Ridgebacks, Queen’s Gaels, Royal Military College Paladins, Ryerson Rams, U of T Varsity Blues, Trent Excalibur West Division: Algoma Thunderbirds, Brock Badgers, Guelph Gryphons, McMaster Marauders, Waterloo Warriors, Western Ontario Mustangs, Wilfrid Laurier Golden Hawks, Windsor Lancers, York Lions Réseau du sport étudiant du Québec Concordia Stingers, Laval Rouge et Or, McGill Redmen, U of Montreal Carabins, Sherbrooke Vert et Or, UQAM Citadins, Trois-Rivières Patriotes *Quebec’s CEGEPs have their soccer league which cover students between high school and university level. (Sainte-Foy, Garneau, St-Lambert, Ahuntsic, John Abbott, Vanier, Dawson, Montmorency, Lionel-Groulx) Division IV and lower -Amateur level including all levels of minor leagues under the CSA and provincial entities -MLS and CPL club would most likely open academies for different group age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.