Tuscan Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Anyone active on the forum who's from St. John's, Nfld? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 21 hours ago, Gopherbashi said: People in the GTA are also used to the 1.5 hour drive because they, well, commute to work. This is something I have been mulling over, just to add a whole new dimension to this. The self driving car revolution seems to be coming at us head on (sorry). If it works well, and I can get into a self driver Uber like thing and get to Downsview in 20 minutes while watching a tv show re run in a vehicle that actually dispenses beer.... I think this really changes things. The Urban core is either expanded or erased depending on your perspective. The numbers in the charts above don't tell the whole story, accessibility is also part of the equation. You just can't get from many places in Toronto, or other Canadian cities to stadium X in many cases for a weekday 7pm game. Even if you have 5 million people in your city, if they can't get there... they won't go. So building small stadiums outside of the city core might be WAY more viable in 'X' number of years with what seems to be a drastic change in transportation that is coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Tuscan said: See and this is something I think the CFL has done to actually hurt its own future growth potential. By branding the SK and BC teams as SK and BC instead of as the cities where they're located, they've basically eliminated all other cities in those provinces from having the chance to have their own team. SK is particularly bad as if you even mention the idea of a separate S'toon CFL team you're branded a heretic. No word of a lie I suggested that idea to a couple of my classes during university and people were outright hostile to the idea and said they'd actively work against the new team here. I really don't want the CanPL to make that same mistake. I want Regina's team to be Regina, not Saskatchewan. I want Regina and Saskatoon to face each other in the Voyageurs Cup and to be a really hotly contested rivalry with animosity between players and between fans. I know I joke about the idea of supporters clashes between the two teams, but I genuinely hope that our two cities get the opportunity to renew the old rivalry on the football pitch, just the ACTUAL football in this case. This is only a mistake in your eyes, Jeff as far as I'm concerned. The long and ingrained history of the Riders throughout the province for decades likely precluded the formation of a S'toon team. That doesn't mean that Regina & S'toon couldn't both have CanPL teams, but there's a reason neither city was on Peter Wilt's list despite several other cities being on there. It's because neither Regina nor S'toon would be considered excellent markets. Regina has two clear advantages: the stadium & Riders org (if they're involved). However virtually every other factor in Wilt's analysis, not to mention the absence of a likely big money investor means that it won't be a cakewalk to make a Sask team viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 In another way of saying this, sheer numbers overcome accessibility to the facility, and removing accessibility as an obstacle effectively increases the effective number of people in your market. It really is an issue. We sold very very few tickets up the valley to the Tuesday game in Vancouver. The weekday was a contributing factor to our sales drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 20 minutes ago, admin said: This is something I have been mulling over, just to add a whole new dimension to this. The self driving car revolution seems to be coming at us head on (sorry). If it works well, and I can get into a self driver Uber like thing and get to Downsview in 20 minutes while watching a tv show re run in a vehicle that actually dispenses beer.... I think this really changes things. The Urban core is either expanded or erased depending on your perspective. The numbers in the charts above don't tell the whole story, accessibility is also part of the equation. You just can't get from many places in Toronto, or other Canadian cities to stadium X in many cases for a weekday 7pm game. Even if you have 5 million people in your city, if they can't get there... they won't go. So building small stadiums outside of the city core might be WAY more viable in 'X' number of years with what seems to be a drastic change in transportation that is coming. I think the number of people driving to games has gone down over the years. People don't want to spend their time commuting anywhere, even if they aren't driving. Having said that it is still more likely that people will choose transit for a night on the town than driving. Commuting in Toronto is hard because of the suburban sprawl, and because transit isn't like it is in places like New York or most of Europe just yet, changes are coming, there is a lot of money being invested in transit. Self driving vehicles on the other hand are only going to lead to worse congestion unless the entire vehicle ownership model is changed from people owning cars to cars being used as a taxi service. So, in large cities or cities that are transit oriented, it's simpler to build things like stadiums on transit lines like Downsview with the new subway stop, or Centennial when the Crosstown is extended to the Mississauga Corporate Centre. For cities like Halifax, or Saskatoon it might be better to build stadiums in areas that are easy to drive to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuscan Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 29 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said: This is only a mistake in your eyes, Jeff as far as I'm concerned. The long and ingrained history of the Riders throughout the province for decades likely precluded the formation of a S'toon team. My argument to this is the Riders used to be branded Regina, both when they were still a rugby club in the early 1900s and when they initially became a gridiron club afterwards. I'm not sure when the switch the Saskatchewan branding happened (someone do the dirty wikipedia work for me) but if I could go back in time I'd stop them from doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuscan Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Complete Homer said: Do you think Regina and Saskatoon each really support 5000-10000 fans per game? Since you end up (partially) excluding outlying areas by not branding it as Saskatchewan, you're really only relying on the 200-300k people in each city, which seems like a stretch to me Yes it'd certainly be a challenge, but for the good of the growth of the game these challenges need to be solved. If marketed properly and run as professionally as possible, I don't see why teams here couldn't at least draw 5000 per match. The U of S Huskies football team is drawing upwards of 7000 per game right now. Not quite an apples to apples comparison but both are sports entertainment. When the Huskies football program brought in a new marketing company to help build attendance, things went from an average of maybe 3000 to at least doubling over about a 3 year span. Mind you this has come at the cost of not making it out of Canada West since 2006 and having the same coaching for the last 25 years who are simply behind the times and why do we spend THOUSANDS on bloody fireworks displays instead of focusing on winning Vanier Cups hell we can't seem to recruit players as well as we could in the early 2000s which is both coaching issues and focus issues I mean really do we need games like BLACKOUT Night and shit like that or setting off thousands of dollars worth of fireworks at the end of a game WE LOST???!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 22 minutes ago, zen said: I think the number of people driving to games has gone down over the years. People don't want to spend their time commuting anywhere, even if they aren't driving. Having said that it is still more likely that people will choose transit for a night on the town than driving. Commuting in Toronto is hard because of the suburban sprawl, and because transit isn't like it is in places like New York or most of Europe just yet, changes are coming, there is a lot of money being invested in transit. Self driving vehicles on the other hand are only going to lead to worse congestion unless the entire vehicle ownership model is changed from people owning cars to cars being used as a taxi service. So, in large cities or cities that are transit oriented, it's simpler to build things like stadiums on transit lines like Downsview with the new subway stop, or Centennial when the Crosstown is extended to the Mississauga Corporate Centre. For cities like Halifax, or Saskatoon it might be better to build stadiums in areas that are easy to drive to. Congestion has very little to do with number of lanes and even total number of cars isn't the primary factor - it's inefficient human drivers that can't space properly and have poor reactions. Self driving cars are actually expected to greatly reduce congestion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 3 minutes ago, Tuscan said: Yes it'd certainly be a challenge, but for the good of the growth of the game these challenges need to be solved. If marketed properly and run as professionally as possible, I don't see why teams here couldn't at least draw 5000 per match. The U of S Huskies football team is drawing upwards of 7000 per game right now. Not quite an apples to apples comparison but both are sports entertainment. When the Huskies football program brought in a new marketing company to help build attendance, things went from an average of maybe 3000 to at least doubling over about a 3 year span. Mind you this has come at the cost of not making it out of Canada West since 2006 and having the same coaching for the last 25 years who are simply behind the times and why do we spend THOUSANDS on bloody fireworks displays instead of focusing on winning Vanier Cups hell we can't seem to recruit players as well as we could in the early 2000s which is both coaching issues and focus issues I mean really do we need games like BLACKOUT Night and shit like that or setting off thousands of dollars worth of fireworks at the end of a game WE LOST???!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Need a paper bag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 29 minutes ago, zen said: I think the number of people driving to games has gone down over the years. People don't want to spend their time commuting anywhere, even if they aren't driving. Having said that it is still more likely that people will choose transit for a night on the town than driving. Commuting in Toronto is hard because of the suburban sprawl, and because transit isn't like it is in places like New York or most of Europe just yet, changes are coming, there is a lot of money being invested in transit. Self driving vehicles on the other hand are only going to lead to worse congestion unless the entire vehicle ownership model is changed from people owning cars to cars being used as a taxi service. So, in large cities or cities that are transit oriented, it's simpler to build things like stadiums on transit lines like Downsview with the new subway stop, or Centennial when the Crosstown is extended to the Mississauga Corporate Centre. For cities like Halifax, or Saskatoon it might be better to build stadiums in areas that are easy to drive to. Of course you should build stadiums on mass transit lines. Always, if you can. Self drivings will only be viable if they reduce congestion. If they are prevalent it's because they solve a problem, not make one worse. The vehicle ownership model is going to change, I don't think that is avoidable without significant fuckery from the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 38 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: Congestion has very little to do with number of lanes and even total number of cars isn't the primary factor - it's inefficient human drivers that can't space properly and have poor reactions. Self driving cars are actually expected to greatly reduce congestion I don't deny that with self driving vehicles you could cram more cars into the same amount of space and travel at higher speeds more safely, but even that has a limit. Unless the transportation model of the future affects the total number of vehicles per person in a way that actually reduces congestion, things could actually get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 6 minutes ago, zen said: I don't deny that with self driving vehicles you could cram more cars into the same amount of space and travel at higher speeds more safely, but even that has a limit. Unless the transportation model of the future affects the total number of vehicles per person in a way that actually reduces congestion, things could actually get worse. You are simply thinking of cars as the model we have now, but self driving. I am talking about a total transformation of all of that from ownership, infrastructure, intra car communication for traffic flow, shared ownership, scaled uber like services from a single pod to a bus. Parking will be less necessary, there will be more space, less cars and safer roads. This isn't a utopian view. It's possible and the benefits will outweigh just about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 What I'm about to post is something I started a few years ago to look at the CHL and CJHL models and how they could be applied for a similar coordinated soccer system across Canada. It's essentially raw data without interpretation, but the basis for two local soccer projects I'm working on. My feeling (bolstered by the Easton Report) being that any community can support 18 local kids when they represent that community when playing against other communities. It's also why I started the thread on the alternative CPL models just to see if other models were out there. Population figures are from the 2011 census and I was going to update them once the 2016 census figures are released in February 2017. Sports leagues included are the usual suspects, plus a few others. Soccer - MLS, NASL, USL, PDL, semi-pro leagues Hockey - NHL, CHL, CJHL Football - CFL, CJFL, CMFL Lacrosse - NLL I avoided senior provincial soccer leagues, Junior B hockey and below, baseball, basketball and other lacrosse (the Ontario based Canadian Lacrosse League folded this year). However, if someone were to make a comprehensive list, any of these leagues that involve some travel, should be included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 BRITISH COLUMBIA Vancouver Island NORTH ISLAND NANAIMO AREA Campbell River (34,514) Parksville (24,326) Courtenay (40,809) Port Alberni (20,503) Comox (13,627) Nanaimo (88,799) Powell River (13,175) Ladysmith (8,841) Duncan (24,479) VICTORIA WEST VICTORIA AREA SAANICH AREA Langford (29,228) Victoria (80,032) Sydney (11,583) View Royal (10,858) Oak Bay (18,015) North Saanich (11,089) Esquimalt (16,209) Central Saanich (15,936) Colwood (16,093) Saanich (109,752) Metchosin (4,803) Sooke (7,136) Victoria has 5 teams - PDL and PCSL Victoria Highlanders, CHL Victoria Royals, CJHL Victoria Grizzlies, CJFL Westshore Rebels Nanaimo has 2 teams - CJHL Nanaimo Clippers and CJFL Vancouver Island Raiders Ladysmith has the PCSL Mid-Isle Mariners Port Alberni has the CJHL Alberni Valley Bulldogs Powell River has the CJHL Powell River Kings Duncan has the CJHL Cowichan Valley Capitals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 VANCOUVER (1,345,000) WEST VANCOUVER NORTH VANCOUVER VANCOUVER Sechelt (7,251) Whistler (7,699) Vancouver (603,502) Gibsons (8,089) Squamish (15,051) West Vancouver (44,000) North Vancouver (84,412) RICHMOND AREA DELTA AREA BURNABY AREA Richmond (190,473) Delta (99,863) Burnaby (223,218) New Westminster (65,976) Vancouver has 8 teams - MLS Vancouver Whitecaps, USL Whitecaps FC 2, PCSL Vancouver United, Vancouver Thunderbirds, NHL Vancouver Canucks, CHL Vancouver Giants, CFL BC Lions, NLL Vancouver Stealth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 LOWER MAINLAND (1,157,000) SURREY AREA COQUITLAM AREA LANGLEY AREA Surrey (468,251) Port Moody (32,975) Langley (104,177) White Rock (19,339) Coquitlam (126,456) Walnut Grove (27,969) Port Coquitlam (56,342) Aldergrove (12,778) MAPLE RIDGE AREA ABBOTSFORD AREA CHILIWACK AREA Pitt Meadows (17,736) Abbotsford (149,855) Chilliwack (66,382) Maple Ridge (76,502) Hope (4,234) Coquitlam has 2 teams - PCSL Khalsa Sporting Club, CJHL Coquitlam Express Langley has 2 teams - CJHL Langley Rivermen, CJFL Langley Rams Chiliwack has 2 teams - CJHL Chilliwack Chiefs and CJFL Valley Huskers Surrey has CJHL Surrey Eagles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 NW BC (131,000) NW COAST AREA NW BC AREA Prince Rupert (11,838) Prince George (65,503) Terrace (15,569) Quesnel (13,566) Kitimat (7,046) Williams Lake (12,408) Smithers (5,473) Prince George has 2 teams - CHL Prince George Cougars, CJHL Prince George Spruce Kings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 OKANAGAN (356,000) KAMLOOPS AREA VERNON AREA KELOWNA AREA Dallas (4,445) Salmon Arm (11,810) Kelowna (117,312) Kamloops (73,472) Armstrong (4,830) West Kelowna (30,892) Merritt (7,189) Vernon (44,600) Lake Country (6,281) SOUTH OKANAGAN AREA Summerland (6,704) Penticton (36,902) Oliver (5,175) Osoyoos (4,855) Grand Forks (4,274) Kamloops has 3 teams - PCSL Kamloops Heat, CHL Kamloops Blazers, CJFL Kamloops Broncos Penticton has 2 teams - PCSL Penticton SC, CJHL Penticton Vees Kelowna has 2 teams - CHL Kelowna Rockets, CJFL Okanagan Sun West Kelowna has CJHL West Kelowna Warriors Merritt has CJHL Merritt Centennials Salmon Arm has CJHL Salmon Arm Silverbacks Vernon has CJHL Vernon Vipers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 SOUTH ROCKIES KOOTENAY AREA ROCKIES SOUTH AREA (BC/AB) Castlegar (8,992) Revelstoke (6,772) Trail (9,276) Golden (3,701) Nelson (10,520) Banff (7,584) Creston (5,379) Canmore (10,884) Cranbrook (19,364) Kimberley (6,723) Fernie (4,811) Cranbrook has CHL Kootenay Ice Trail has CJHL Trail Smoke Eaters Canmore has CJHL Canmore Eagles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 ALBERTA NW ALBERTA ROCKIES NORTH AREA (BC/AB) ROCKIES EAST Fort Nelson (3,902) Grande Cache (4,103) Fort St John (18,699) Hinton (9,640) Dawson Creek (11,583) Jasper (3,560) Grande Prairie (54,913) Valemount (1,020) AB NW AREA AB WEST AREA AB NORTH AREA Peace River (4,252) Whitecourt (9,595) Athabasca (2,990) High Prairie (2,600) Edson (8,475) Lac La Biche (2,520) Slave Lake (6,792) Drayton Valley (7,049) Fort McMurray (61,374) Grande Prairie has 2 teams - CJHL Grande Prairie Storm and CMFL Grande Prairie Drillers Fort McMurray has 2 teams - CJHL Fort McMurray Oil Barons and CMFL Fort McMurray Monarchs Whitecourt has CJHL Whitecourt Wolverines Drayton Valley has CJHL Drayton Valley Thunder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 NE ALBERTA ALBERTA EAST AREA St. Paul (5,400) *Bonnyville (6,216) Grand Centre (13,714) Vegreville (5,717) Vermillion (3,930) Wainwright (5,925) Bonnyville has CJHL Bonnyville Pontiacs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 CAPITAL CAPITAL WEST ST. ALBERTA EDMONTON Barrhead (4,432) Westlock (4,823) Edmonton (812,201) Spruce Grove (27,947) Morinville (9,849) Stony Plain (13,882) St. Albert (61,466) Devon (6,510) Leduc (24,279) CAPITAL EAST AREA Sherwood Park (64,733) Ft. Saskatchewan (19,051) Beaumont (13,284) Camrose (17,226) Wetaskiwin (11,689) Edmonton has 7 teams - NASL FC Edmonton, NHL Edmonton Oilers, CHL Edmonton Oil Kings, CFL Edmonton Eskimos, CJFL Edmonton Huskies, CJFL Edmonton Wildcats, CMFL Edmonton Raiders Spruce Grove has CJHL Spruce Grove Saints Sherwood Park has CJHL Sherwood Park Crusaders Camrose has CJHL Camrose Kodiacs St. Albert has CMFL St. Albert Stars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 CENTRAL RED DEER WEST RED DEER NORTH RED DEER SE Rocky Mountain House (6,933) Ponoka (6,773) Stettler (5,779) Sylvan Lake (10,703) Lacombe (11,707) Innisfail (7,876) Red Deer (90,207) Blackfalds (6,300) Olds (8,235) Didsbury (4,876) Drumheller (6,723) Red Deer has 2 teams - CHL Red Deer Rebels, CMFL Central Alberta Buccaneers Drumheller has CJHL Drumheller Dragons Olds has CJHL Olds Grizzly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 SOUTHERN ALBERTA Airdrie Area Calgary Area Airdrie (42,564) Calgary (1,096,833) Cochrane (16,841) Okotoks Southeast Lethbridge Medicine Hat Chestermere (14,363) Brooks (13,818) Medicine Hat (65,671) Strathmore (10,220) Lethbridge (83,679) Okotoks (24,511) Coaldale (7,493) Black Diamond (4,545) Taber (8,199) High River (10,716) Calgary has 8 teams - PDL Calgary Foothills, NHL Calgary Flames, CHL Calgary Hitmen, CJHL Calgary Canucks, CJHL Calgary Mustangs, CJFL Calgary Colts, CMFL Calgary Gators, CMFL Calgary Wolfpack, NLL Calgary Roughnecks Lethbridge has CHL Lethbridge Hurricanes Medicine Hat has CHL Medicine Hat Tigers Okotoks has CJHL Okotoks Oilers Brooks has CJHL Brooks Bandits Airdrie has CMFL Airdrie Irish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River_City2 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 SASKATCHEWAN NORTHERN SASKATCHEWAN LLOYDMINSTER SASKATOON PRINCE ALBERT Lloydminster (27,804) Saskatoon (222,035) La Ronge (5,905) Battlefords (21,660) Martensville (7,716) Prince Albert (35,552) Meadow Lake (5,045) Warman (7,084) Nipawin (4,330) Kindersley (4,678) Melfort (5,576) Humboldt (5,678) Saskatoon has 3 teams - CHL Saskatoon Blades, CJFL Saskatoon Hilltops, NLL Saskatchewan Rush Lloydminster has 2 teams - CJHL Lloydminster Bobcats (AB), CMFL Lloydminster Vandals (AB) Prince Albert has CHL Prince Albert Raiders Humboldt has CJHL Humboldt Broncos Kindersley has CJHL Kindersley Klippers La Ronge has CJHL La Ronge Ice Wolves Melfort has CJHL Melfort Mustangs Nipawin has CJHL Nipawin Hawks North Battleford has CJHL Battleford North Stars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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