Watchmen Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 5 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said: And right on cue the US Soccer fanboys' heads are collectively exploding on twitter I'm not saying their aren't US fanboys losing their shit, but was just reading the comments on Soccer By Ives and their opinion/comments are basically the same as here. They recognize that it's not a great format, that it eliminates too many teams too early, and don't really have a solution but are open to ideas. I think we'll be seeing the end of the first round home-and-away group stage to start things off and instead a longer group stage scenario, while still seeing a number of top teams get a bye for the first part. The exact numbers and format will take a while to resolve. I wonder how much influence TV/sponsors will play a factor in this? As in, if these two groups want more games, are they willing to pick up the tab for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 19 minutes ago, Moldy9 said: Seriously why this is even an argument boggles me: federations like the ones in the Caribbean not able to "fly their team" to Canada? What, are they flying Air Canada??? If you can't pay your way to play you shouldn't be a federation simple as that. This problem did indeed occur about 10-12 years with (I think) barbadoes. It turns out that thier oppoenent, the US paid for their trip. Your last point is valid. Why are they a federation? Well the recent FIFA scandals and documentaries on it, do shed light on why. FIFA, unlike other intl sports federation like FIBA, were always keen on adding every possible member even if they cant possibly compete. Why? Because their votes were easy buy. Its those kind of votes That helped Sepp blatter get elected. In exchange, he used pork barrel funds like the gol program to buy those votes. But, yes, when you have country of 30-60K, thats like a small canadian town. Its not easy to raise funds and sponsor a national team to travel. Around north america. No different than the challenges of organizing school trips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moldy9 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 10 minutes ago, Free kick said: This problem did indeed occur about 10-12 years with (I think barbadoes). It turns out that thier oppoenent, the US paid for their trip. Your last point is valid. Why are they a federation? Well the recent FIFA scandals and documentaries on it do shed light on why. FIFA, unlike other intl sports federation like FIBA, were always keen on adding every possible member even if they cant possibly compete. Why? Because their votes were easy buy. Its those kind of votes That helped Sepp blatter get elected. In exchange, he used pork barrel of things like the gol program to buy those votes. But, yes, when you have country of 30K. Its not easy to raise funds and sponsor a national team to travel. Barbados and Cayman Islands have lots of cash. Haiti is the poorest country in the Americas but they've played well in the Gold Cup and participated in the Copa America Centenario and also played high profile friendlies vs Brazil and Argentina in Port au Prince so if a federation mismanages money that shouldn't be others problem to foot the bill. As for countries that cant pay to play then seriously I ask myself what are they doing there in the first place. It would be like having a triple A team that registered itself in a tournament but yet expects other clubs to pay the greyhound bus. Isn't that why national teams have sponsors and have charter flights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, Moldy9 said: Barbados and Cayman Islands have lots ofcah...... Isn't that way national teams have sponsors and have charter flights? What cash do theyhave? The offshore money that flows there doesnt belong to the state. And thats why its there. Charter flight? Are you kidding! All this costs money. Sponsors go where there is exposure. You dont find that that in tiny countries that are the smaller than towns like Kapukasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 I remember reading that CONCACAF subsidized travel for that early group stage for 2014 qualifying. I know there are currently travel subsidies in the Caribbean cup and the Concacaf Champions League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moldy9 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 25 minutes ago, Free kick said: What cash do theyhave? The offshore money that flows there doesnt belong to the state. And thats why its there. Charter flight? Are you kidding! All this costs money. Sponsors go where there is exposure. You dont find that that in tiny countries that are the smaller than towns like Kapukasing. Hey mate i just explained how the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere can do it how come countries like Barbados and Cayman can't? If their government can't put a little cash into their own programs then it sounds to me like a domestic problem so again why are they there? Maybe it's best they just stick with playing 2 games and get ousted using a boat or Caribbean airlines whatever. Not our problem. Even Cuba flew to Canada! Embargos and all. And played well considering only having 11 players and subs defecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moldy9 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 I whole heartedly agree that getting these countries on footy welfare were excellent for votes for good ol Jack Warner hence why they were allowed to exist. Though that needs to change. No way to pay? So sorry, too flipping bad. Lose by DQ. Sanctions. Lose your membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe MacCarthy Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 9 hours ago, ob1 said: And I like the idea of a name change for our region as well. How soon we forget, anyone remember The Football Confederation? Anyways, good to see Mont Vic doing something that should help Canada. New name and new look for CONCACAF: The Football Confederation Soccer - 27 Sep 1999 THE FOOTBALL CONFEDERATION New name and new look for CONCACAF. A new name, logo and web site were introduced Monday 27th October by the controlling body for football in the regions of North America, Central America and the Caribbean. Known since its formation in 1961 by the acronym CONCACAF, the Continental Confederation of FIFA which oversees the activities of 38 member associations will now be known as The Football Confederation. The new logo shows a pentagon, split into three blocks by the figure of a soccer player. The three blocks represent the three regions of The Football Confederation. The new web site can be reached at http://footballconfederation.com/. Jack Warner, President of The Football Confederation, said: We thought it was time to make a change, to present a more vibrant and modern image to a part of the world which is making such headway in the game. Now, instead of an awkward acronym, we have three simple and appropriate words. General Secretary Chuck Blazer said: " Our official name remains the same Confederation of North, Central American and Caribbean Association Football but the new name is easier to say and easier to understand. It also takes the two most important words of our full title Football and Confederation and uses them as our new name, brand and address on the web, the communication tool which, over time, will mean so much to all our members and their respective public. While the web site will continue to be expanded over the coming months, the media and fans will find updated information on important tournaments of The Football Confederation and its members, as well as previously unavailable historical information on competitions and other activities. The hat-trick of new images comes on the eve of the first games of the Champions' Cup at the Sam Boyd Stadium in Las Vegas, Nevada, where DC United of the USA will defend their title against seven other finalists. The winners in Las Vegas will move on to compete in the inaugural FIFA World Club Championship in Brazil next January, competing with the best clubs in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe MacCarthy Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 7 hours ago, Obinna said: Give the top 5 teams a buy Freudian slip? That's how Captain Jack Warner the pirate did business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finchster Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Glad to see something that will benefit Canada. Now we run the mafia in Concacaf let's use it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 5 hours ago, Free kick said: This problem did indeed occur about 10-12 years with (I think) barbadoes. It turns out that thier oppoenent, the US paid for their trip. Your last point is valid. Why are they a federation? Well the recent FIFA scandals and documentaries on it, do shed light on why. FIFA, unlike other intl sports federation like FIBA, were always keen on adding every possible member even if they cant possibly compete. Why? Because their votes were easy buy. Its those kind of votes That helped Sepp blatter get elected. In exchange, he used pork barrel funds like the gol program to buy those votes. But, yes, when you have country of 30-60K, thats like a small canadian town. Its not easy to raise funds and sponsor a national team to travel. Around north america. No different than the challenges of organizing school trips. Those are precisely the votes Vic is attending to, and from what we know, got elected with. Sepp = Vic then? Just to be fair, following the reasoning and what we know of how votes split. I don't know if you can argue it is easier to buy a small country's vote, plenty of large ones were mindless supporters of Blatter and have been of corrupt officials all over the world, in UEFA too. Hey, we supported Warner for years, US too, were we an easy vote to buy, the guy was scandalously corrupt? We were easily bought by all kinds of things, like the promise of a tournament here or there. Any case, small countries need encouragement to grow the game for a simple reason: it works. Iceland in the Euros, Faroe Is won their qualifying match just now. Small countries making life hard, Sweden just squeezed one out vs. Luxembourg. You have to let the small countries play to improve. Just watched Spain -Albania, the rival used to be easy pickings, not any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 5 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said: I remember reading that CONCACAF subsidized travel for that early group stage for 2014 qualifying. I know there are currently travel subsidies in the Caribbean cup and the Concacaf Champions League. We used to pay for Cuba to come to Canada for official matches, if I remember correctly, early 2000s. Doesn't anyone recall that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuscan Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 What actual facts about the smaller Caribbean nations do we know? Can someone provide budgets? Really tough to predict how a new qualifying system will work out when we don't necessarily know what financial impediments those smaller nations are really up against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Did Vic not run a lot on the idea of greater revenue sharing? I suspect there is a plan to finance the smaller FAs with revenue from larger ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Some people have mentioned the issues that minnows will have paying for and doing well in a longer qualifying tournament. What do people think about having a better-named "Shitty Caribbean Teams Tournament" as a first stage for qualifiers, kind of like the OFC Nations Cup? Rather than having these guys travelling all over the place for qualifying, bring them all to one place instead and have them duke it out over a week. EDIT: CONCACAF could even have a sizable "tournament" victory award that will help them pay for further rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Most of what folks are saying and have been saying about so-called minnows is incredibly paternalistic and in now way corresponds to what a small nation is likely thinking. Like a small club playing an FA Cup. Are you telling me you don't think you can compete, and win, and find glory in the sport? Or do you guys just assume that the the little guys let themselves get beat up for the paycheck, throwing it like in some crappy boxing movie? It is incredible someone could argue that the small nations could be more vulnerable to corruption when the biggest in the region gets EVERY fucking Gold Cup, and has been proven to have bribed their way into their one recent Olympics. The richest country is by far the greediest and most corrupt in the region, in sheer numbers and in manipulative influence. They stink, we should not let them touch anything, they'll turn it into someone's personal benefit nine times out of ten. They'll also skillfully dope themselves into success if they could, and use media to create spin in their favour as well, even movie stars, like the girls did with their hypocritical anti-field turf campaign against us for the WC last year. So why would you not want a smaller club to get more and better gates, be able to sign a modest tv deal, use games to grow excitement? Get an upset, which can't happen if the US or Mexico are afraid of it happening. Why not get more games so some guy playing in League One from a Caribbean background might consider coming back and playing for his parent's country, improve the squad? Suriname, referred to here: there are a ton of eligible players for them in Holland, who only need the incentive to make the move and make them into a tough and serious team. Writing this before and after the Jays last inning at bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 6 hours ago, Moldy9 said: Hey mate i just explained how the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere can do it how come countries like Barbados and Cayman can't? If their government can't put a little cash into their own programs then it sounds to me like a domestic problem so again why are they there? Maybe it's best they just stick with playing 2 games and get ousted using a boat or Caribbean airlines whatever. Not our problem. Even Cuba flew to Canada! Embargos and all. And played well considering only having 11 players and subs defecting. At the 2002 Gold Cup, the haitian team stayed in the same hotel that the voyageurs stayed at in Miami who had traveled down for the trip. It turns out i had picked that hotel for that trip and i looked for the cheapest in Miami. And when we saw the facility, it was pretty easy to understand why it was the cheapest. Its one of those "you kind of had to be there to understand" situations. We would see the players in the lobby regularly. This made one understand certain things that are pretty obvious about a region like this. When i heard of chartering flights like the for the Lebron James types and other north american pro sports franchises. Well, The net worth or many of these US and Cdn pro sports teams exceed the GDP of most of these countries. Thats why I laugh at the notion and chartering or finding sponsors. Sure, you can find sponsors but it will be the likes of bakery or autobody garage moreso than an intl company for many of these countries. Your other point was very valid. Why do they have a national team? Many shouldnt. And i am excluding Haiti because they have been decent and have a history of being good enough to qualify for the finals. But the likes of St Lucia etc should not. For the same reasons that they dont have national teams in other sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 46 minutes ago, Tuscan said: What actual facts about the smaller Caribbean nations do we know? Can someone provide budgets? Really tough to predict how a new qualifying system will work out when we don't necessarily know what financial impediments those smaller nations are really up against. But is it really difficult to figure out? I dont mean this in derogatory manner in any way. To me its basic math and economics. Take countries like St Lucia, the caymans, bermuda..etc.. what kind of a tax base do you have when your population is something like 30-60K. What kind of native companies to do have to sponsor a national program of any kind? What kind of tax base can you have to fund a national sports body? Can you even fund national sports body? Many of these counties dont really have tax base at all but rather have levies on foriegn entities who do business there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varsity Tyler Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Just thinking aloud here and I'm curious to hear thoughts from others: what about a West Indies type team for the smaller islands of the Caribbean? Pool funding and a talent base to make a highly competitive entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 22 minutes ago, Free kick said: But is it really difficult to figure out? I dont mean this in derogatory manner in any way. To me its basic math and economics. Take countries like St Lucia, the caymans, bermuda..etc.. what kind of a tax base do you have when your population is something like 30-60K. What kind of native companies to do have to sponsor a national program of any kind? What kind of tax base can you have to fund a national sports body? Can you even fund national sports body? Many of these counties dont really have tax base at all but rather have levies on foriegn entities who do business there. Even more countries or protectorates compete as such for IAAF competitions than for FIFA, not less, more. More nations compete in the world athletics competitions. I am all for it, everyone should be able to defend their street, neighbourhood, ward, city, and proudly. In any sport they can. You are basically arguing that they should not be allowed to compete. They can train, they can dream, but not compete. Totally paternalistic and not one serious bit of data to justify your argument, not one piece of economic sense. Yeah, let's make a rule that the kids on your street where you grew up should not be allowed to play either. Don't let them play. Listen to yourself. Anyone who has followed soccer knows that there are many cases where a very modest team on a cup run has gotten a sponsor for the shirt only for that run alone. They sell stadium ads for the visiting team's tv market. They can get a corporation to give them some naming rights for a WC qualifying campaign. Hell, Scotiabank sponsors the Concachampions, meaning they sponsor a tournament clubs from some of those countries you are dissing participate in. I have family working for the American University of the Caribbean, in Saint Martin, Dutch side, now applying for FIFA membership. Playing matches after dormant for a decade. New stadium, capacity 3000, now trying to qualify for Caribbean Cup, also GC they say. If you think the economy impedes them, well fine, but I think what really hurts them is that they have never played an official match vs. a team that was not from an island. From what I hear, very nice place. I say: let them play, maybe they could find Dutch players as well to come back and enjoy international football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 I'd like to take a crack at this: 1. 7 group of 5, minnows get 8 games 2. Top 2 teams in each group and best 2 third place teams (hopefully involving a coin toss) advance to the next 16. 3. 4 groups of 4. Top 16 in the region get 14 games. 4. Top 2 in each group advance to home and away tie playoffs. 5. Quarter-final losers go home, having played 16 games. 6. Semi-final losers playoff for 3rd and 4th, having played 20 games. 7. Winners and runner-up also play 20 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 37 minutes ago, Free kick said: But is it really difficult to figure out? I dont mean this in derogatory manner in any way. To me its basic math and economics. Take countries like St Lucia, the caymans, bermuda..etc.. what kind of a tax base do you have when your population is something like 30-60K. What kind of native companies to do have to sponsor a national program of any kind? What kind of tax base can you have to fund a national sports body? Can you even fund national sports body? Many of these counties dont really have tax base at all but rather have levies on foriegn entities who do business there. Frankly, the logic is amazing, Free Kick. You tell us how they built an airport, a port, have roads, schools, hospitals, a tv station. A justice system, policing. Tourist infrastructure. I mean, if you don't know, then just shut up, please. For example you are basically arguing that only a national company can sponsor a team from one of those nations. Ie, that a British bank operating in Saint Lucia could not sponsor them, or a Dutch in Aruba. Saint Lucia has about 60% of the population of Iceland, who seem to compete properly in football. I mean, do you have any idea how sponsorship works, or the world football economy, do you just assume you have to be from the exact location drawing money locally to pay for things? All of your assumptions are totally silly and economically ridiculous, so stop already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 With respect to the travel costs, Gianni Infantino more than doubled the financial handouts to FIFA member nations from $2M USD per quadrennial to $5.5 million USD per quadrennial. There are additional $250K/year grants available to subsidize travel costs for FIFA's poorest nations. http://www.espnfc.us/blog/fifa/243/post/2872240/fifa-agrees-new-budget-that-will-more-than-double-member-nation-shares-to-over-5-million-dollars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Proving that Victor is on the right track, Klinsman has said that he's against the changes that Victor is proposing because it won't benefit the US national team. And in fact, he wants to eliminate the Gold Cup, to boot: http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/10/10/klinsmann-disagrees-concacaf-president-proposed-changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 On 10/10/2016 at 0:06 AM, Unnamed Trialist said: Even more countries or protectorates compete as such for IAAF competitions than for FIFA, not less, more. More nations compete in the world athletics competitions. I am all for it, everyone should be able to defend their street, neighbourhood, ward, city, and proudly. In any sport they can. You are basically arguing that they should not be allowed to compete. They can train, they can dream, but not compete. Totally paternalistic and not one serious bit of data to justify your argument, not one piece of economic sense. Yeah, let's make a rule that the kids on your street where you grew up should not be allowed to play either. Don't let them play. Listen to yourself. Anyone who has followed soccer knows that there are many cases where a very modest team on a cup run has gotten a sponsor for the shirt only for that run alone. They sell stadium ads for the visiting team's tv market. They can get a corporation to give them some naming rights for a WC qualifying campaign. Hell, Scotiabank sponsors the Concachampions, meaning they sponsor a tournament clubs from some of those countries you are dissing participate in. I have family working for the American University of the Caribbean, in Saint Martin, Dutch side, now applying for FIFA membership. Playing matches after dormant for a decade. New stadium, capacity 3000, now trying to qualify for Caribbean Cup, also GC they say. If you think the economy impedes them, well fine, but I think what really hurts them is that they have never played an official match vs. a team that was not from an island. From what I hear, very nice place. I say: let them play, maybe they could find Dutch players as well to come back and enjoy international football. What is so pateralistic about what i said. The same countries dont compete in FIBA. As for IAAF, track and field events are individul sports, different ball of wax all together. In cricket, they compete under the name of a region. They dont have national hockey teams nor many other sports. Are those other sports paternalistic? Anywys, i never said that they that they shouldnt be allowed to compete in WCQ. I am just saying that there realitistic economic challenges when you are a country of 30-60K people. Like for example, that match several cycles ago that Barbadoes didnt want to compete in versus the US (that the US ended up paying for) because of travel burden . And when you devise a WCQ process, you have to consider that and the fact that there are sovereign island that are smaller. So, i am actually being the opposite of paternalistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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