CPL Must Haves (A Poll)

[jordan]

No foreign spots used for Goalkeepers

[Complete Homer]

28 minutes ago, jordan said:

No foreign spots used for Goalkeepers

This message has been approved by the Give John Smits a Freaking Chance Fund (GJSFCF)

[SuperCanuck]

On 24/09/2016 at 2:41 PM, matty said:

Like the cities list, this is a poll to see what everyone thinks the CPL needs. I'm gonna give a list of 18 things and you pick 5. I will then tally them up. I'd of posted this in the CPL thread but it's at like 115 pages or something by now.

-At least 6 teams to start (6*)
-At least 8 teams to start (9*)
-40% or 30% quota with annual escalation (7)+
-50% Canadian player quota to start (4)+
-60% Canadian player quota to start (1)
-75% Canadian player quota to start
-Conferences (4)
-Single table (3)
-A plan for Pro/Rel (3)
-Local media (1)+
-A TV deal with TSN (12*)
-A TV deal with SportsNet (2*)
-A TV deal with TLN (2*)
-A CCL Spot (8)
-A cross Canada hosted Gold Cup (1)
-A single DP (2)
-2 DP slots
-MLS connections
-The Canadian MLS teams in the league
-A CIS draft
-A NCAA draft
-Minimum ownership requirements with 3 year commitment (3)+
-Minimum stadium requirements (nothing bush league) (3)+
-Academy partnerships (2)+
-Minimum coaching requirements (1)+
-VCup Entry (2)+

If you want to add something please list and I will add it. Also this is not a debate forum, just a poll.

My picks: 8 teams, 60%, conferences, TSN, CCL

*shared votes = .5
+ add on

1.  Ideally, ten teams to start, but realistically six.

2.  60%

3.  Ideally, single table, but realistically conferences, but only two please.

Ideally (again) pro/rel, but that's never going to happen in Canada, so I'm not going to count this one.

4.  TSN has gone from the Blue Jay loving, soccer hating network to having lots of footie, and finally some rugby (my favourite sport, sorry).  Sportsnet has gone from its good old days of being the only station that carried anything to doing almost nothing.  I'm trying to figure out why I still subscribe to SportsnetWorld.  No TLN.

5.  CCL spot of course

6.  I've just had a brilliant idea for a way to make this league succeed and grow quickly.  All we need to do is...oops, I only get to pick five.

[SuperCanuck]

On 24/09/2016 at 3:35 PM, Ansem said:

8 teams starts with expansion plans

40% Canadian domestic and escalating 

Sportsnet + TVA Sports

Match of the week on sunday night CBC + SRC for national exposure. Might as well give it away the 1st year.

Single Table

CCL spots with possibility of a 2nd for runner up

Yep

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

19 hours ago, SuperCanuck said:

4.  TSN has gone from the Blue Jay loving, soccer hating network to having lots of footie, and finally some rugby (my favourite sport, sorry).  

This is the thing that gives me the most hope of success.  

I had a guy came up to me asking about vardy rumours who I would have totally pegged as a soccer hater when i was out golfing in my arsenal shirt (played hockey with him briefly as a kid)

and yes I know golfing in an arsenal shirt is tacky but welcome to the territories lol

[SuperCanuck]

On 05/10/2016 at 3:52 PM, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

This is the thing that gives me the most hope of success.  

I had a guy came up to me asking about vardy rumours who I would have totally pegged as a soccer hater when i was out golfing in my arsenal shirt (played hockey with him briefly as a kid)

and yes I know golfing in an arsenal shirt is tacky but welcome to the territories lol

Not as tacky as doing anything in a Man Utd. shirt.  

[coppercanuck]

@ matty and ted,

I currently live in Cincinnati.  Having watched FC Cincinnati's success in a league with a YouTube fan base, I feel like it is "less important" as time goes by.  Granted, FCC got some of the games simulcast on the CW (Star 64?), which may have helped with the over 30,000 fans at the play-off game.  There are ways to get a community around a team without the TV deal.

I feel that if you are looking to engage with a younger audience, get a tech savvy crew to stream the games with a B+ or A- quality.  It seems to have worked for the USL.  That's the level of play we are talking about .... right?

[coppercanuck]

@ matty and ted,

I currently live in Cincinnati.  Having watched FC Cincinnati's success in a league with a YouTube fan base, I feel like it is "less important" as time goes by.  Granted, FCC got some of the games simulcast on the CW (Star 64?), which may have helped with the over 30,000 fans at the play-off game.  There are ways to get a community around a team without the TV deal.

I feel that if you are looking to engage with a younger audience, get a tech savvy crew to stream the games with a B+ or A- quality.  It seems to have worked for the USL.  That's the level of play we are talking about .... right?

[matty]

19 minutes ago, coppercanuck said:

@ matty and ted,

I currently live in Cincinnati.  Having watched FC Cincinnati's success in a league with a YouTube fan base, I feel like it is "less important" as time goes by.  Granted, FCC got some of the games simulcast on the CW (Star 64?), which may have helped with the over 30,000 fans at the play-off game.  There are ways to get a community around a team without the TV deal.

I feel that if you are looking to engage with a younger audience, get a tech savvy crew to stream the games with a B+ or A- quality.  It seems to have worked for the USL.  That's the level of play we are talking about .... right?

I get that YouTube can do wonders but the money might not be there. You can do decent to great in attendance and still fall apart without TV when you're invest a ton of money (look at the XFL). Even eSports, which is king online, has turned to television to bring in money.

Also on the USL comparison, the rumoured salary cap is between $1.5-2M Canadian or around $60k per player more than double the USL's rumoured high end pay and about $15k more than the average NASL pay. So it's reasonable to assume the CPL will be a higher level of play than the USL and NASL.

[Complete Homer]

^assuming low-ish CanCon and that most teams hit the cap

[matty]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

^assuming low-ish CanCon and that most teams hit the cap

They'll have a lot of bench Canadians from the NCAA for most of CanCon and likely CanMNT and CONCACAF top flight level talent (including MLS) on the pitch with the rumoured amount of cash they're spending. 

[Complete Homer]

48 minutes ago, matty said:

they'll have a lot of bench Canadians from the NCAA

By my count, there's about 40 Canadians in an average NCAA graduating year. How many of them are actually good enough to be pros, how many are dual nationals who might not be very connected with Canada, and how many of them are on more lucrative career tracks? Those 40 guys are probably whittled down to a handful by those standards. I think the NCAA could be a decent tertiary source of players, but I don't think can allow us to have a high quota 

Here is a look at the Canadian player pool that pegged a 30-40% player pool as doable without resorting to NCAA/L1O/PLSQ

The problem with that breakdown is that it doesn't account for a major issue - we can't assume these guys will be out of contract in 2018. As such, I suggested that NCAA/L1O/PLSQ/PDL/etc guys could fill the gaps. 

If you want a 75% quota for an 8 team league with 25 man rosters, you need 150 Canadians who are available to sign for 2018 for 60k or less. I just can't see that happening unless the quality of the league is brought very low - which is a huge threat to the league's viability. 

I get that a lot of people want a high quota, and don't trust that an escalating quota would be followed through, but looking bush-league and having the whole thing entirely dismissed by the mainstream is an even bigger threat, and ensuring the on-field product is decent is a necessity.

Edit to address your edit:

Sure a couple guys might be poached from MLS, but unless there's a DP-esque rule, "big" signings are probably in the 100-150k range. I expect mostly NASL-level internationals and NASL/USL/lower tier europe level Canadians

[matty]

Just now, Complete Homer said:

By my count, there's about 40 Canadians in an average NCAA graduating year. How many of them are actually good enough to be pros, how many are dual nationals who might not be very connected with Canada, and how many of them are on more lucrative career tracks? Those 40 guys are probably whittled down to a handful by those standards. I think the NCAA could be a decent tertiary source of players, but I don't think can allow us to have a high quota 

Here is a look at the Canadian player pool that pegged a 30-40% player pool as doable without resorting to NCAA/L1O/PLSQ

The problem with that breakdown is that it doesn't account for a major issue - we can't assume these guys will be out of contract in 2018. As such, I suggested that NCAA/L1O/PLSQ/PDL/etc guys could fill the gaps. 

If you want a 75% quota for an 8 team league with 25 man rosters, you need 150 Canadians who are available to sign for 2018 for 60k or less. I just can't see that happening unless the quality of the league is brought very low - which is a huge threat to the league's viability. 

I get that a lot of people want a high quota, and don't trust that an escalating quota would be followed through, but looking bush-league and having the whole thing entirely dismissed by the mainstream is an even bigger threat, and ensuring the on-field product is decent is a necessity.

 

I don't want a 75% CanCon. I don't think anyone (other than Rollins at one point) has suggested anything over 50-60%.

Of those 40, and not graduating students, I'd say teams should look to sign players who made 15+ appearances (there was a good number of them in 2015) in the previous season. After accessing them in the preseason, assign some to development (likely either just as training camp members or on loans to L1O and PSQL) and place the stronger players on the bench along with any USL guys that come over and non-Canadians who are not starters. If guys under perform cut em. Same goes for L1P, CIS and PQSL players.

These players (along with L1O and PQSL) will also likely be making the league minimum or near it (assuming you've got 10 of these guys at around $20,000 each, you'll have at least $1.3m left over for the other 15 or $87k~ each. This is based on the rumoured $1.5m cap hit which is actually rumoured to be as high as $2m). Unlike having a foreign heavy team, a team with rich with Canadians as depth would likely be able to spend more on a starting XI.

A 30% quota would likely result in fewer of the current batch of Canadians between 18 and 23 even getting a chance to develop and prove their case.

If you're worried about contracts you can always check online. Some sites list them relatively well. A good number of CanMNT players, based in the MSL, NASL and Europe, are on contracts expiring between June 2017 and June 2018. It's safe to say a lot of these guys will consider the CPL if the money is right. I also expect that the MLS sides will do loans of Canadians who are too good for USL but not quite MLS yet, like we've seen them do with the NASL.

You keep mentioning a fear of poor on field product, well, think about the 6-9 (there will likely be a rule to have at least 2 Canadians on the pitch per team at all times) guys starting along side your CanMNT level players. The salaries offered will bring in strong CONCACAF talent from all over the place due to how much higher they are than say everywhere that isn't MLS or Liga MX. A 50% quota would mean you'd have 12 guys who'd be top flighters in their home countries playing here and some might even be national team players or MLS level guys. I'm not even including DPs.

25 Man roster with 50% CanCon
12 Non-Can + 2 CanMNT + 2 NASL/USL guys + 9 NCAA/L1O/PLSQ/CIS (4 loaned to L1O and PLSQ)

[ted]

19 hours ago, coppercanuck said:

@ matty and ted,

[snip]

I feel that if you are looking to engage with a younger audience, get a tech savvy crew to stream the games with a B+ or A- quality.  It seems to have worked for the USL.  That's the level of play we are talking about .... right?

Except, "engage[ment] with a younger audience" is only a part of the puzzle and NOT the primary reason the CanPL needs one or more games on TV every week of the season.

Media, including TV, radio, and yes, newspapers, will take a league to be less "serious" if it has no TV deal of any kind. They will not treat the CanPL as anything but a bush-league if it is not on TV.

Casual Supporters, who we will have to attract in droves (and convert into passionate supporters) will take the league less seriously if it is not on TV and not covered by regional and national media.

Sponsors likewise will not be willing to put up the same kind of money if the league is not on TV and is not being covered by the national media and not attracting enough spectators.

I could live with a "game of the week" deal on TV and the rest of the games available online but a minimal TV presence is absolutely the one key component IMO that cannot be lost.

 

Now, once that is in place, the number one job of the marketing team for the league is an effective social media strategy that engages that younger audience. 18-35 year olds will make or break the league and they want meaningful, entertaining engagement with the teams outside of games along with game-day atmosphere and engagement.

[Complete Homer]

15 hours ago, matty said:

25 Man roster with 50% CanCon

12 Non-Can + 2 CanMNT + 2 NASL/USL guys + 9 NCAA/L1O/PLSQ/CIS (4 loaned to L1O and PLSQ)

OK, if you are talking 50%, we are arguing over a pretty small difference of opinion

If you can put together a list 16 CMNTers and 16 NASL/USL willing to work for 60k and are available in 2018, you'll have me convinced. Otherwise I'll err on the side of garaunteeing a good on field product in year 1

[matty]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

OK, if you are talking 50%, we are arguing over a pretty small difference of opinion

If you can put together a list 16 CMNTers and 16 NASL/USL willing to work for 60k and are available in 2018, you'll have me convinced. Otherwise I'll err on the side of garaunteeing a good on field product in year 1

I can't guarantee about money because I don't know everyone's pay so I'll estimate at times. You also have to factor in what demand might be for a player. Also I'm gonna use my near $90k high because I think it'll be more accurate as to what experienced players will be getting paid.

Gonna use guys with caps, NASL contracts, known to have passports and under 35 in 2018. I'll also avoid Canadians in major European leagues and U25 MLS players. MLS guys are also worth noting because they could not have options picked up. Also not including NASL guys playing in Canada and sticking to guys I can get a date for contract expiration.

Free now
Marcus Haber
Stefan Cebara

End of the Season (because you might have a situaton were a guy is signed and loaned out like with NYCFC)
Nana Attakora
Adam Straith
Drew Beckie
Daniel Haber
Iain Hume - I've heard he's making a good amount in India but not elsewhere
Ashtone Morgan - If he leaves Toronto he'll be taking a big cut

Free prior to day 1
Samuel Piette (end of 2016-17 season)
Charlie Trafford (end of 2016-17 season) - Last year possibly made around $35k, 
Randy Edwini-Bonsu (end of 2016-17 season) - possibly not making $15k
Pedro Pacheco (end of 2016-17 season) - Estimated $50k in 2012
Luca Gasparotto (end of 2016-17 season) - I'm gonna guess he's making under $30k based on this
David Edgar (end of 2017 season)
Marcel de Jong (end of 2017 season) - Made $170,000 last year but likely has taken a pay cut this year
Tomer Chencinski (end of 2017 season) - Last year possibly made around $35k

Free in July 2018
Simeon Jackson - Current pay possibly around $115K
Manjrekar James - Guessing $30K off of this estimate
Andre Hainault
Jayson Leutwiler - Current pay possibly around $65K

That's 20 as I said the numbers could change with releases and new passports.

[Complete Homer]

24 minutes ago, matty said:

I can't guarantee about money because I don't know everyone's pay so I'll estimate at times. You also have to factor in what demand might be for a player. Also I'm gonna use my near $90k high because I think it'll be more accurate as to what experienced players will be getting paid.

Gonna use guys with caps, NASL contracts, known to have passports and under 35 in 2018. I'll also avoid Canadians in major European leagues and U25 MLS players

Free now
Marcus Haber
Stefan Cebara

End of the Season (because you might have a situaton were a guy is signed and loaned out like with NYCFC)
Nana Attakora
Adam Straith
Drew Beckie
Daniel Haber
Iain Hume - I've heard he's making a good amount in India
Ashtone Morgan - If he leaves Toronto he'll be taking a big cut

Free prior to day 1
Samuel Piette (end of 2016-17 season)
Charlie Trafford (end of 2016-17 season) - Last year possibly made around $35k, 
Randy Edwini-Bonsu (end of 2016-17 season) - possibly not making $15k
Pedro Pacheco (end of 2016-17 season) - Estimated $50k in 2012
Luca Gasparotto (end of 2016-17 season) - I'm gonna guess he's making under $30k based on this
David Edgar (end of 2017 season)
Marcel de Jong (end of 2017 season) - Made $170,000 last year but likely has taken a pay cut this year
Tomer Chencinski (end of 2017 season) - Last year possibly made around $35k

Free in July 2018
Simeon Jackson - Current pay possibly around $115K
Manjrekar James
Andre Hainault
Jayson Leutwiler - Current pay possibly around $65K

Ok, again not to be argumentative (our opinions aren't that far apart, I'm splitting hairs here), but I can't see several of those guys coming.

In 2018 Edgar is only 31 and probably able to earn a decent MLS salary, as will de Jong IMO. Pacheco will likely be uninterested, he's very much a Portugal-based person. Gasparotto will hopefully be on to better things. Jackson could be a wildcard, I could see him with another run in the Championship at a good salary if he keeps scoring this year. James I suspect will also be onto greater things. Leutwiler may or may not be interested in leaving his home continent.

Lots of guys listed are in both the NASL and CMNT camps, but we would need 16 from both to hit your quota.

So that's down to 14 of the 32 needed in the " 25 Man roster with 50% CanCon
12 Non-Can + 2 CanMNT + 2 NASL/USL guys + 9 NCAA/L1O/PLSQ/CIS (4 loaned to L1O and PLSQ)" model. 

Again, not trying to dump on the 50% quota, I'm just cautious about watering down the league in year 1, and even my suggestion would have it at a 50% quota within the first 5 years

[matty]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

Ok, again not to be argumentative (our opinions aren't that far apart, I'm splitting hairs here), but I can't see several of those guys coming.

In 2018 Edgar is only 31 and probably able to earn a decent MLS salary, as will de Jong IMO. Pacheco will likely be uninterested, he's very much a Portugal-based person. Gasparotto will hopefully be on to better things. Jackson could be a wildcard, I could see him with another run in the Championship at a good salary if he keeps scoring this year. James I suspect will also be onto greater things. Leutwiler may or may not be interested in leaving his home continent.

Lots of guys listed are in both the NASL and CMNT camps, but we would need 16 from both to hit your quota.

So that's down to 14 of the 32 needed in the " 25 Man roster with 50% CanCon
12 Non-Can + 2 CanMNT + 2 NASL/USL guys + 9 NCAA/L1O/PLSQ/CIS (4 loaned to L1O and PLSQ)" model. 

Again, not trying to dump on the 50% quota, I'm just cautious about watering down the league in year 1, and even my suggestion would have it at a 50% quota within the first 5 years

I understand being cautious and I do think I am over estimating CanMNT talent that will come but  I also think you're overestimating some players values and I also think it's not unreasonable to think 4-6 teams might have 2 CanMNT and that each team manages to snag one. I just want to state that I think some of the younger guys (James, Gasparotto, Trafford) might use the CPL as a stepping stone to MLS, I also think a lot of foreign players might too.

And again certain players contract expirations aren't known and they could be cut prior.

And I want to state that I think you're assuming FCE and the Fury are going to hold on to all their players if they join or not (which the rumours currently point to them joining) and that I don't think that will be the case. So there's another 20~ players that could very well be added.

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Again, not trying to dump on the 50% quota, I'm just cautious about watering down the league in year 1, and even my suggestion would have it at a 50% quota within the first 5 years

I mentioned this in my vote earlier, but I think with your escalation idea (which isn't a bad idea) there could be a perception of the league quality going downhill. If teams have to get rid of fan favourites to make room for Canadians who aren't as good, that could signal to fans that the low bar set in year 1 was actually the pinnacle of the league. It could be that it doesn't happen, but I do think it's a risk, and people are more likely to support a league that seems like it is always improving.

[Complete Homer]

31 minutes ago, Kent said:

I mentioned this in my vote earlier, but I think with your escalation idea (which isn't a bad idea) there could be a perception of the league quality going downhill. If teams have to get rid of fan favourites to make room for Canadians who aren't as good, that could signal to fans that the low bar set in year 1 was actually the pinnacle of the league. It could be that it doesn't happen, but I do think it's a risk, and people are more likely to support a league that seems like it is always improving.

Fair, but I'd suggest it's really only the diehards that would notice, and the league can probably count on the matter regardless

Compare that to an opening season with poor quality, where the big risk is mainstream dismissal, and I lean towards lax quota off the bat