Floro Must Go

[The Beaver]

49 minutes ago, Coin Toss said:

Not sure if anyone's noticed this, or how I feel about it, but there's a number of shouts for/about Nick Dasovic and Mark Watson coming from certain quarters. There's more, but here's a few examples:

 

I love Dasovic and Watson, but they are simply not good enough for what we need. Neither is Dos Santos and Robinson--not yet, at least. Honestly, I would take Hart over any of these guys, and he's not the right direction.  The new MNT coach must fit in with Devos's overall development strategy. As one or two have said here, I'd rather keep Floro than bring on guys like DeRo or Poz or Stalteri, or Daso and Watson et al.  

[nolbertos]

Dasovic is too green, same with Dos Santos.  The criteria to be CMNT manager shouldn't be a guy with only a bright idea, who wants to work with the Nats.  Prove yourself as a manager in MLS, or Liga MX, or even a South American league, also win a league Championship, maybe guide a team through CCL or Copa Libertadores too.  No more Kings of Donair type resumes.  Also have that experience be more recent and not like Floro, where he coaches Real Madrid ages ago.  I would've thought with Mont Vic, head of CONCACAF, we can afford a better coach, who wants to bring his own assistants and not this use Canadian assistants.  That's one criteria, that scares off good coaches is the CSA's unwillingness to bring their own technical staff.

[Supersonic78]

Why is Floro still employed?

[The Beaver]

Forgive me if this was posted already, but apparently Jesse Marsch had shown interest in managing the MNT, even submitted a plan for how he'd make it all happen, but the CSA went with Floro instead.  Someone like Marsch, in another year or two, would be a good candidate.  Link below:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/09/07/taking-red-bulls-job-jesse-marsch-wanted-be-canadas-coach

 

[Moldy9]

5 hours ago, jpg75 said:

There was a debate on this board a while back, probably 7-8 years ago and Unnamed Trialist and I were arguing this very thing. Instead of trying to teach players to become the next DeRo in a structured setting we need them to learn to actually interplay with their teammates, tactics, positioning etc. The skinning and taking guys on one-on-one is for the school yard.

This is the problem with Canadian soccer. It's this mentality that explains why we can't produce offensive players. Players should know how to take guys on one on one. I only wished more kids would hone this skill in the school yard. Instead most Canadian kids  just run and chase a ball in recreational soccer on fields in the summer.  It's the kids that play in the schoolyard that are not selected cause they are too rough around the edges. They have the natural abilities but are not chosen cause they "don't play system". 

[jpg75]

15 minutes ago, Moldy9 said:

This is the problem with Canadian soccer. It's this mentality that explains why we can't produce offensive players. Players should know how to take guys on one on one. I only wished more kids would hone this skill in the school yard. Instead most Canadian kids  just run and chase a ball in recreational soccer on fields in the summer.  It's the kids that play in the schoolyard that are not selected cause they are too rough around the edges. They have the natural abilities but are not chosen cause they "don't play system". 

I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere. I am saying those skills are learned in the schoolyard, in an informal setting where kids can be kids. You'd have a tough time trying to mimic that in a practice setting and likely wouldn't have enough time for the kids to come close enough to honing their skills. Nor would the kids learn to actually play a team game (Spain/Barcelona was used as an example) and develop their soccer IQ.

As far as schoolyard players not being selected that's far from the truth. Our best players all played pick-up ball with friends outside of formal soccer. DeRo, Hutch, the de Guzmans, Serioux...

[BearcatSA]

^This reminds of me the discussion I had on this thread

 

[One American]

7 hours ago, The Beaver said:

Forgive me if this was posted already, but apparently Jesse Marsch had shown interest in managing the MNT, even submitted a plan for how he'd make it all happen, but the CSA went with Floro instead.  Someone like Marsch, in another year or two, would be a good candidate.  Link below:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/09/07/taking-red-bulls-job-jesse-marsch-wanted-be-canadas-coach

 

Usually when American fans talk about hiring an MLS coach, I shake my head. But I really like Marsch. I like the way they play. I don't know how a high press would work against elite NTs. But it should work in CONCACAF.

[BCM]

I like the idea someone mentioned before of hiring someone with Central or South American experience. I also want international experience, preferably as head coach of a decent national squad. But we need a coach with technical ability and high tactical awareness. I've said it before, we need to keep our shape and play a disciplined tactical game to have a chance of advancing to the hex (and beyond). I like that Floro emphasises shape and tactics, but like others do not agree with a lot of his tactics. 

[shorty]

I've been of two minds on the Floro stay/go debate for a while, mostly because apart from the bizarre roster/sub choices which we can all observe first-hand, it's hard to know what role he has had in other ways behind the scenes.  For example, many on the stay side point to the fence-sitters who have signed up during his tenure, ostensibly because of his cachet as a former Real Madrid coach with connections, yada yada.  Implicit in that is the idea that if we fire Floro, the tap is turned off to attracting duals to the program, but I'm starting to side with letting him go for exactly that reason:  if we point to four major goals not achieved and let him go, aren't we sending the message to the current players and potential future players that the goals of our program are more ambitious than before and that we won't settle?  Obviously, as rightback says above, if we don't follow up with a good choice for his replacement we would undermine this, but I think the risk symbolically to keeping him is greater than the risk to letting him go.

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

Pun fully intended when I say that the biggest name available in North America would be Sigi Schmid. When I look at his resume, a move to the international game would be well timed.

[rightback]

From a fence-sitter's perspective, he's going to decide primarily based on what's good for his career. There is risk to joining a national team and, if the national team is likely to lose all the time, often embarrassingly,  little benefit. So who is more likely to bring success: a former coach of Real Madrid (or someone of similar pedigree) or a rookie or MLS coach? I don't know if any fence-sitters joined during the Hart era and I have to figure there was some skepticism of joining up with the king of donairs.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

20 hours ago, rightback said:

Shit, you're right. You'd think they'd link that page back to the individual team pages so it would be up to date. 

All right, I found one! Koldo has been coach of Andorra for 6 years! There must be some more, anyway. 

Koldo is not even Andorran, I think he's from Navarre or Basque Country but played for the main club team a long time as keeper and they nationalized him. I remember seeing him play.

Since Andorra's main goal in life is to win an  official match, then, win another, or tie, his job is fairly secure. They almost got a draw last week in fact. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Funny how the more I read this thread the more I think we should keep Floro. 

Well, not really, but I see where a lot of people of coming from. Especially with some of the suggestions here, which would really put us back. Floro had the advantage of doing things with a certain logic that many criticized, then later understood. He won many of us over, he actually taught us things. 

Which suggests he had his own ideas and was a proper professional as a coach. Of things he did not do, like squad selection, those are the kinds of things criticized by every fan in the world when results don't happen, they are commonplace "errors", the ones any idiot fan can call out, while the positives were usually "specialized" ways of hitting a mark that few fans might appreciate.

I am not sure, but I seemed to recall Floro was making 350 thousand. Perhaps that is too low, or it was Euros or something, but that is what I had in my head. Maybe someone I spoke to. Half a million CDN seems about right and about what we can pay, a bit more maybe.

[Ruffian]

10 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Funny how the more I read this thread the more I think we should keep Floro.

I have mixed feeling on if he should stay or go. One thing I did not like was the body language when Hoilett was taken off in the El Salvador game Floro turned his back to Hoilett and then Hoilett was embraced by everyone on the bench except Floro. Is this another underlying dispute or just a momentary frustration?

[Califax]

#FloroIN

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, Ruffian said:

I have mixed feeling on if he should stay or go. One thing I did not like was the body language when Hoilett was taken off in the El Salvador game Floro turned his back to Hoilett and then Hoilett was embraced by everyone on the bench except Floro. Is this another underlying dispute or just a momentary frustration?

 

Given we needed goals, Hoilett was one of our very best players, and had shown no signs of slowing down right up until he was subbed, I think Floro turned around because he was ashamed.

[Cheeta]

Has to go.  The man was given a good long period to find his feet, bring in whoever he wanted to bring in and implement whatever it is he wanted to implement.  How many matches did we go without a goal?  A year, year and a half?  And the Gold Cup and now this round of qualifying.

Not going to say he hasn't added to the program, great, wonderful thank you very much for doing that part of your job but it's clear the task of getting Canada to the Hex is beyond him.  Hopefully, this time, we can find someone out there that can.

That someone will either move forward with what his predecessor has left him, throw the lot out and start from scratch, or a hybrid of both.  But the black & white of it is the results show its time to look at other options.  

[kingvikingstad]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Funny how the more I read this thread the more I think we should keep Floro. 

Well, not really, but I see where a lot of people of coming from. Especially with some of the suggestions here, which would really put us back. Floro had the advantage of doing things with a certain logic that many criticized, then later understood. He won many of us over, he actually taught us things. 

Which suggests he had his own ideas and was a proper professional as a coach. Of things he did not do, like squad selection, those are the kinds of things criticized by every fan in the world when results don't happen, they are commonplace "errors", the ones any idiot fan can call out, while the positives were usually "specialized" ways of hitting a mark that few fans might appreciate.

I am not sure, but I seemed to recall Floro was making 350 thousand. Perhaps that is too low, or it was Euros or something, but that is what I had in my head. Maybe someone I spoke to. Half a million CDN seems about right and about what we can pay, a bit more maybe.

I'm genuinely interested, what exactly are you talking about with "specialized" ways of hitting a mark (this reminds me of when Bargnani after a bad season told the Raptors press he "did more important things than defense and rebounding" as if everyone were too dumb to see what was right in front of them)? Personally, I saw a team so committed to a defensive approach that it didn't even seem as though we had trained going forward and far worse, didn't seem to have any clue defending on the counter, as if it seemingly would never be needed.  

I agree with most here that I think Robinson and amateur, inexperienced coaches would probably be off the mark, but what has Floro's experience gotten us besides some fence sitters on our side? Presumably, wouldn't a string of good results and attractive football have a similar effect?

Ultimately, upon reflection, Floro was a good hire for the simple fact that he brought some legitimacy to our program that meant some fence sitters would commit and it added some needed attacking talent to the squad. Furthermore, we needed a coach who demanded respect and could get the players to commit to an approach/identity. 

Regardless, as a function of poor results, unwatchable style of play tailored for a complete minnow, selection headaches, etc., I see no reason to keep Floro unless the replacement is very, very poor. And with some of our offensive talent and newfound $$$, I'm not sure it will be that poor.

There must be managers who believe that they can work with and mold a front-line made up of at least Larin-Arfield-Hoillett (and maybe Hutch if he can be convinced). For CONCACAF, that's a strong amount of talent on paper, and better than likely anyone outside of the top 3. We need a coach that sees this potential.

 

[Dub Narcotic]

Check out those xG numbers on the other thread. Floro has been objectively awful with the worst Gold Cup performance in history and a WCQ campaign that was big step down from the last one. I can't think of a single reason to keep him on.

[matty]

3 hours ago, rightback said:

From a fence-sitter's perspective, he's going to decide primarily based on what's good for his career. There is risk to joining a national team and, if the national team is likely to lose all the time, often embarrassingly,  little benefit. So who is more likely to bring success: a former coach of Real Madrid (or someone of similar pedigree) or a rookie or MLS coach? I don't know if any fence-sitters joined during the Hart era and I have to figure there was some skepticism of joining up with the king of donairs.  

I think this was a big factor in why Floro's CV was so important and why the next coach needs to have an impressive CV. If Canada does go with an MLS guy then it needs to be someone like Sigi Schmid, who has had a long history of massive success, and not a Carl Robinson, someone with a short history of decent success.

Personally I would like our next coach to come from Liga MX, partly because it's highly respected league that fence-sitters wouldn't scoff at.

[Ansem]

For better or for worse, Floro got players to commit to Canada that we always thought would never join. I disagree with some of his line-up decisions but that's beyond the point, we don't have the depth that it takes to make the Hex.

Objectively, if we had scored on a fraction of the scoring chances we had, we'd be making the hex or participate in Copa America. Under Floro's system, we had our chances (MANY CHANCES) and we blew it, pure and simple. That has more to do with the lack of technical skills and depth than Floro.

Our pyramid tree is a mess, a joke and quite frankly, an embarrassment. Furthermore, (I mean no disrespect), but I can't agree with reading that Canada's salvation is based on the USSF and some "Canadian division scheme" within the USL or NASL. MLS was supposed to help us and we wasted valuable years on them.

CSA needs to make lower tiers and provincial bodies get that 1 message clear. This isn't a democracy, this is a dictatorship. CSA wants a proven model that worked for hockey, a Division 3 CHL. Either get with the program or get the F out of the way.

Can't stress enough how CPL makes more sense if we want improved results and consistency. We need our Canadian players to play often at a higher level. In that regard, we have only leftovers.

Going back to Floro, firing him won't give us the Hex for Qatar. If anything, we looked decent through his tenure which is already an improvement. Just being realistic, we're not Mexico or the US. If we were, Floro would have been out after the last Gold Cup, but we're Canada, a mediocre soccer nation, too afraid to take risks to get better and we love to play it safe, hence always running for big brother (distant relative) USSF to take pity on us and "let us" tag along.

[Ruffian]

Could this be CanMNT coaching news?

 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Ruffian said:

Could this be CanMNT coaching news?

Most likely Floro is quitting. Our pyramid tree being the joke that it is, I frankly don't blame, we're asking the impossible until our Tier 2 + 3 makes sense and we have a national league.

 

[The Ref]

It will be nice to see some quick action by Montagliani regarding Floro.  A new coach may get us to Qatar, but keeping Floro will sure not get us there.