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9 minutes ago, Norrin Radd said:

to be away from his club team (loan or otherwise) too frequently. It'll make it harder for any player to establish himself as a professional

That all depends on the specifics of his club situation. Hence the question.

 

10 minutes ago, Norrin Radd said:

He's either on the senior team or the Olympic team but he shouldn't be on both.... The spot on the Olympic team should go to another promising player. Perhaps one of these dual nationals we should be trying to recruit.

I am not a fan of this take. My POV has always been: bring your best 20 U23 guys and let's try and qualify for Tokyo.

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He had an amazing 75 mins in front of 58000 fans at Celtic Park. The atmosphere was unbelievable. (I was there!!!) He was Completely shattered after the match. He absolutely worked his socks off

Champions!! Amazing for Liam to be a part of such an amazing club and not a bad year to make your senior debut!! Onwards and upwards!! #ynwa!!

Unbelievable performance from back to front from the whole team. To come out and beat a league one team with basically a u20 team. Brilliant  so incredibly proud of Liam asked to do a job to pres

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6 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

That all depends on the specifics of his club situation. Hence the question.

 

I am not a fan of this take. My POV has always been: bring your best 20 U23 guys and let's try and qualify for Tokyo.

I know it isn’t common practice among established soccer powers but I have always thought this would be an interesting approach for Canada.  I think there are lots of guys who would love the chance to compete at the Olympics.  It may not be the top of the soccer pyramid but it is an extremely rare opportunity that is time-limited for soccer players. 

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4 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

That all depends on the specifics of his club situation. Hence the question.

The only time I would consider him for the Olympic team is he's sitting on the bench somewhere or playing on a youth team.

5 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

I am not a fan of this take. My POV has always been: bring your best 20 U23 guys and let's try and qualify for Tokyo.

Does that mean you want Davies and David to leave their clubs and play at the qualifiers?

The only thing that matters for me is the senior team. If calling up a player to any of the youth teams is potentially detrimental to the senior team it should not happen. Millar will face a higher level of competition if he's playing on a Championship side vs. the Concacaf qualifiers and that will be better for his development.

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8 minutes ago, Norrin Radd said:

Does that mean you want Davies and David to leave their clubs and play at the qualifiers?

Yes. An argument can be made that Olympic qualifiers is more important than going to "Pot 4"/"Pot 5" WCQ country. 

8 minutes ago, Norrin Radd said:

The only thing that matters for me is the senior team.

The Olympics themselves is almost "senior team" (U23+ 3 overage players), and the coverage in Canada would be huge. It would help make the players household names and build momentum and big tournament experience going into 2022 and 2026. There is also a great deal of funding that will suddenly show up if we qualify.

Edited by Olympique_de_Marseille
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The coverage would be far greater if we qualify for the world cup. The purpose of the youth teams is to develop players for the senior side. Any enjoyment we get from watching the U17, U20 or U23 teams should never be given priority over preparation for the WC qualifiers.

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16 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Yes. An argument can be made that Olympic qualifiers is more important than going to "Pot 4"/"Pot 5" WCQ country. 

The Olympics themselves is almost "senior team" (U23+ 3 overage players), and the coverage in Canada would be huge. It would help make the players household names and build momentum and big tournament experience going into 2022 and 2026. There is also a great deal of funding that will suddenly show up if we qualify.

The Olympics are Huge to the casual fan. Canada having a nice run would do wonders for the program. Not only would Gov funding become available think of all the corporate sponsorship opportunities. I would rank Qualifying for the Olympics second only behind Qualifying for the WC.

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16 hours ago, Norrin Radd said:

The coverage would be far greater if we qualify for the world cup. The purpose of the youth teams is to develop players for the senior side. Any enjoyment we get from watching the U17, U20 or U23 teams should never be given priority over preparation for the WC qualifiers.

I think you underestimate the impact that the Olympics could have.  The women’s performance at the Games was a huge boost to their support in this country.  Sure, soccer fans “in the know” may be well aware that the Olympic tourney isn’t a top notch competition, but a lot of casual sports fans tune in constantly while the Games are on.  It would be a great opportunity to broaden support and raise awareness of the talent in this country.  

And maybe it is an age/dad thing but I  also think that our strong desire to maximize the CMNT doesn’t override the fact that this could be an experience that our players would remember forever - even the ones achieving great things in strong leagues.  The Olympics is a special sort of tournament.  I suspect many of our senior-calibre players would opt to go if given the chance.  

(and I recognize that this doesn’t address the issue of club permission)

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8 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think you underestimate the impact that the Olympics could have.  The women’s performance at the Games was a huge boost to their support in this country.  Sure, soccer fans “in the know” may be well aware that the Olympic tourney isn’t a top notch competition, but a lot of casual sports fans tune in constantly while the Games are on.  It would be a great opportunity to broaden support and raise awareness of the talent in this country.  

And maybe it is an age/dad thing but I  also think that our strong desire to maximize the CMNT doesn’t override the fact that this could be an experience that our players would remember forever - even the ones achieving great things in strong leagues.  The Olympics is a special sort of tournament.  I suspect many of our senior-calibre players would opt to go if given the chance.  

(and I recognize that this doesn’t address the issue of club permission)

This is developing into a discussion about the value of the Olympics which is getting away from the issue that I raised regarding player development.

The point I was trying to make was about the demands put on younger players from call ups to the youth teams and the impact it can have on their development and progress. For a young player who is trying to establish himself at the club level to be called away for both Senior and Olympic team duty would put him at risk of losing out on playing time not only during the national team call ups but also beyond those windows, perhaps losing a starting spot. This would have a negative impact on the player’s development and subsequently his contribution to the national team in the near future.

In the case of Millar, I think we have a player who could be a very useful in the 2022 campaign. Clearly there are others on the forum who disagree with me. His potential to make an impact with the national team, once we get into the further rounds of qualifying next year, will largely depend on where and how much he plays in the upcoming season. If he’s a regular player for a Championship side, I think it would be a poor move to call him to the Olympic team as it could reduce his role at the club (not that they would actually release him) .

However, if he’s established himself at a club to an extent that he feels he can leave for several weeks without losing his spot and he really wants to play in the Olympic qualifiers, I’ll promise not to stand in his way.

Edited by Norrin Radd
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3 minutes ago, Norrin Radd said:

The point I was trying to make was about the demands put on younger players from call ups to the youth teams and the impact it can have on their development and progress.

The thing is, Olympic Qualifying would his last youth tournament. I'd be interested to hear what Alan ( @spitfire) 's or Liam's opinion is on the subject.

Given that Liam isn't a generally a starter (yet!) for the full #CanMNT, it's an interesting and relevant question to ask:

https://www.canadasoccer.com/profile/?id=6079&teamId=2068#tab2 

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10 hours ago, Norrin Radd said:

This is developing into a discussion about the value of the Olympics which is getting away from the issue that I raised regarding player development.

The point I was trying to make was about the demands put on younger players from call ups to the youth teams and the impact it can have on their development and progress. For a young player who is trying to establish himself at the club level to be called away for both Senior and Olympic team duty would put him at risk of losing out on playing time not only during the national team call ups but also beyond those windows, perhaps losing a starting spot. This would have a negative impact on the player’s development and subsequently his contribution to the national team in the near future.

In the case of Millar, I think we have a player who could be a very useful in the 2022 campaign. Clearly there are others on the forum who disagree with me. His potential to make an impact with the national team, once we get into the further rounds of qualifying next year, will largely depend on where and how much he plays in the upcoming season. If he’s a regular player for a Championship side, I think it would be a poor move to call him to the Olympic team as it could reduce his role at the club (not that they would actually release him) .

However, if he’s established himself at a club to an extent that he feels he can leave for several weeks without losing his spot and he really wants to play in the Olympic qualifiers, I’ll promise not to stand in his way.

If I’m not mistaken, the qualifiers were originally at the same time as CMNT games, so it’s not that he would be called to CMNT AND Olympic Qualifiers. He could be called to the Olympic Qualifiers INSTEAD of CMNT for a window. Depending on how important our CMNT games are in that window and how important Herdman thinks he is to our success in those matches, he could be sent to the Qualifiers instead. If he’s just going to be a late game substitute in blowouts against the likes of Grenada, he might as well help us try to qualify for the Olympics. I’d say the same for any fringe National team player. 

Edited by archer21
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For me it’s really simple. Is Millar in our best XI no he’s not. Is he a sure sub off the bench no he’s not. Is he a starter for U23 team yes he is. It’s a no brainer he needs to be part of U23, let him lead and be a star for that team. Our U23 team should be  very good but same with the US. Millar should be challenged with the U23 and in my opinion it’s more important because he’s gonna be a leader and expected to deliver. Canada needs star players for that U23 team and Millar is one of them. I think Millar needs the U23 it should be his coming out party. Liverpool and other clubs are going to be watching. 
There’s a bunch of talented players I think need the U23 team. 

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4 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

For me it’s really simple. Is Millar in our best XI no he’s not. Is he a sure sub off the bench no he’s not. Is he a starter for U23 team yes he is. It’s a no brainer he needs to be part of U23, let him lead and be a star for that team. Our U23 team should be  very good but same with the US. Millar should be challenged with the U23 and in my opinion it’s more important because he’s gonna be a leader and expected to deliver. Canada needs star players for that U23 team and Millar is one of them. I think Millar needs the U23 it should be his coming out party. Liverpool and other clubs are going to be watching. 
There’s a bunch of talented players I think need the U23 team. 

Who is a sure sub off the bench in your opinion?

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37 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Who is a sure sub off the bench in your opinion?

You have a front 6 of Cavallini, Larin, Hoilett, Davies, David, Hutch, Eustaquio, Osorio, Arfield, Kaye, Piette. So that’s 5 subs, although Davies could be at LB or Hutch could miss the window, which opens up some sub appearances.

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56 minutes ago, archer21 said:

You have a front 6 of Cavallini, Larin, Hoilett, Davies, David, Hutch, Eustaquio, Osorio, Arfield, Kaye, Piette. So that’s 5 subs, although Davies could be at LB or Hutch could miss the window, which opens up some sub appearances.

"sure-sub" is arbitrary and subjective, but we can try and quantify it... let's take sub appearances over bench appearances (non-starts).

Someone can do the work, if they are keen, but I am going to estimate here. I would say that Millar has made 7 subs perhaps over his 11 bench appearances. In that case he would be at sure-sub 63% of the time. That is pretty decent. Quite literally he is a "sure-sub" more than half the time.

 

Now let's take your last 5 and treat them as subs:

Eustaquio, Osorio, Arfield, Kaye, Piette

Osorio and Piette would come in around 80-90%, while the rest are near or at 100%. All better than Millar for sure, but are they really subs?

Let's now quantify starters by taking starts over bench appearances (non-starts). 

Even being conservative, I would suspect Arfield, Piette, Osorio start more than 70% of the time, with Kaye starting more than 50%. 

In other words, they are not subs. 

Thoughts?

 

Edited by Obinna
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52 minutes ago, archer21 said:

You have a front 6 of Cavallini, Larin, Hoilett, Davies, David, Hutch, Eustaquio, Osorio, Arfield, Kaye, Piette. So that’s 5 subs, although Davies could be at LB or Hutch could miss the window, which opens up some sub appearances.

The way you did that is counter-intuitive.  Hutch, Eustaquio, Kaye and Piette all play very similar roles.  I can't see rotating through them in 90 minutes.

If you have a 4-3-3, the front 3 would be chosen from (according to you): Cavallini, Larin, Hoilett, Davies, and David, leaving the rest for the second 3.

Millar belongs in the group for the front three.  I for sure see him as a sub in there if you have five subs in a game.  Plus, if you have two windows in a short time period along with travel, I definitely see him getting some playing time.

You also have to worry about match fitness/league playing time.  Will Cavallini's entire 2020 consist of a few games at the start of the MLS season and a few games in August-September?  Is that good enough going into October and November?  Same can be said for Osorio, Kaye and Piette, (although Kaye and Piette got time in Orlando as well).

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17 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Who is a sure sub off the bench in your opinion?

It all depends what they do with Davies and David and midfield  . Because it changes the lineup. Also do you play Millar as a CF or on Wing? But in in general you got

Hoilett, Osorio, Akindele, Larin, Ricketts, Chapman, Wotherspoon, 

 

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15 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

It all depends what they do with Davies and David and midfield  . Because it changes the lineup. Also do you play Millar as a CF or on Wing? But in in general you got

Hoilett, Osorio, Akindele, Larin, Ricketts, Chapman, Wotherspoon

 

Surprised you would say these two. IIRC Wotherspoon and Chapman have remained on our bench more than they've gotten off it. That is not the case with Millar, right?

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9 hours ago, TOcanadafan said:

If we were a European powerhouse we could be talking about him for the U23. We need him to develop chemistry with the senior team. He will be an important player in our starting lineup when we start the octagonal.

Starting lineup? I’m a big Millar fan but I think that’s a bit of a stretch. Not to hate on Millar but look at our other attacking options, who would you bench? Davies (if not at LB), Hoilett, David, Cavallini. Even Larin. I suppose it’s possible we have David at CAM and Davies at LB or Hoilett has a drastic decline but I wouldn’t expect him to be a consistent starter in the Oct.

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3 hours ago, archer21 said:

Starting lineup? I’m a big Millar fan but I think that’s a bit of a stretch. Not to hate on Millar but look at our other attacking options, who would you bench? Davies (if not at LB), Hoilett, David, Cavallini. Even Larin. I suppose it’s possible we have David at CAM and Davies at LB or Hoilett has a drastic decline but I wouldn’t expect him to be a consistent starter in the Oct.

This. I'm a Millar fan but he needs to find himself playing first team football soon or risk being overtaken. There are a lot of tweeners in and around him who just need a run of form.. such as Raposo, Tabla, Ennin, Bair, Akindele but most notably Tyler Pasher with his form in USL.

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29 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

This. I'm a Millar fan but he needs to find himself playing first team football soon or risk being overtaken. There are a lot of tweeners in and around him who just need a run of form.. such as Raposo, Tabla, Ennin, Bair, Akindele but most notably Tyler Pasher with his form in USL.

I have been unimpressed with Bair lately. Anyone else or just me? I was high on him in 2019.

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21 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

This. I'm a Millar fan but he needs to find himself playing first team football soon or risk being overtaken. There are a lot of tweeners in and around him who just need a run of form.. such as Raposo, Tabla, Ennin, Bair, Akindele but most notably Tyler Pasher with his form in USL.

Yes... I’m projecting to June 2021, which is a long time away.  Starting and scoring for Liverpool reserves is a long way ahead of coming off the bench of the Whitecaps.   
Of course if he isn’t getting regular game time he won’t be starting. It’s not a far fetch that he’s playing regularly for a Championship team where Hoilett has become less of a regular option for Cardiff by that time.  Larin also needs to sort his situation out.  
We should use some of these games against the minnows to integrate a talent like Millar into set up.

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