NA D2 and D3 and relationship with MLS

[Yohan]

http://midfieldpress.com/2016/08/03/the-future-of-us-club-soccer-at-a-crossroads-part-one-usls-second-division-ambitions-the-consolidation-of-us-pro-club-soccer-under-mls/

Great article on the state of D2 and D3 leagues, their relationship with MLS and couple of other tidbits.

 

[David C.]

Interesting article. I hope that the USSF doesn't give the USL D2 status. For some reason, I have a soft spot for the NASL, to the point of wishing that Toronto had a franchise, and hope that it succeeds as being the clear D2 Pro league.

Conflicts aside, I think that the current 3-tier pyramid is the best we've had in ages and I am enjoying tracking our Canadians playing in each level this Summer. I'm also thrilled that the NASL has been a great landing sport for players that fell through the cracks elsewhere. I figured that the new USL/reserve format is going to flood the pros with a new generation of solid players over the next few years and NASL (as well as MLS) would benefit from that. Hope that happens.

[shermanator]

I was reading this yesterday, it's very interesting. Personally, I don't see how NASL gains D1 status, given that it draws incredibly poor in some markets (Edmonton, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Cosmos half the time). Nor do I see a league with MLS reserve clubs drawing hundreds getting D2 status.

The idea of the stronger USL clubs breaking off to a USL D2 league, with the weaker / MLS reserve clubs staying D3 in a USL-1 / USL-2 scenario is intriguing to me. I wonder if this would be something that happens down the road.

[Yohan]

22 minutes ago, shermanator said:

I was reading this yesterday, it's very interesting. Personally, I don't see how NASL gains D1 status, given that it draws incredibly poor in some markets (Edmonton, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Cosmos half the time). Nor do I see a league with MLS reserve clubs drawing hundreds getting D2 status.

The idea of the stronger USL clubs breaking off to a USL D2 league, with the weaker / MLS reserve clubs staying D3 in a USL-1 / USL-2 scenario is intriguing to me. I wonder if this would be something that happens down the road.

-NASL is living a pipe dream. They just don't have the financial clout and investors to challenge for D1 status. MLS has too far of a head start.

-USL 1, USL 2 has been done before, so it's not like it's something new. The 'bigger' USL teams want a platform to better support their bid to join MLS in future. And with USL teams springing up like mushrooms, USL 2 organized as regional D3 league for MLS reserve teams/small market USL teams should work as well.

[Kurt-MTL]

Very interesting read. A few points:

1) NASL will never be D1. I see MLS and USSF/SUM as too intertwined for that to ever happen.

2) USL in its current form should not be D2. The main reason for my belief is that I don't think reserve teams belong in D2. Now, if USL were to re-structure with those "upper-echelon" clubs breaking off into their own division (sans MLS-reserve teams) then that's a whole different discussion.

3) If USL is granted D2 status, I agree that it would harm NASL. It may not necessarily be a death-blow however. Although it's possible that several teams could jump ship to "USL-2" and the rest fold up, another possibility is that NASL could form a partnership with NPSL and potentially bring pro-rel to North America: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/usa/11791370/NASL-commissioner-Bill-Peterson-vows-to-take-action-to-introduce-promotion-and-relegation-in-North-America.html. Granted this article is a year old but at least it shows that they're willing to consider it. This would introduce a different kind of product to American soccer fans and create two competing D2-3 structures. Given the size of the USA and number of markets still left untapped, I think there's room for both models.

[masster]

The argument that you need to be in USL to better your chances of MLS entry is just wrong and is not supported by history. Montreal and Minnesota have moved up from NASL. Orlando has moved up from USL and Sacramento will follow. If you have a good market, a good owner who can write a cheque, and a good plan, MLS will accept you no matter where you come from.

[shermanator]

25 minutes ago, masster said:

The argument that you need to be in USL to better your chances of MLS entry is just wrong and is not supported by history. Montreal and Minnesota have moved up from NASL. Orlando has moved up from USL and Sacramento will follow. If you have a good market, a good owner who can write a cheque, and a good plan, MLS will accept you no matter where you come from.

Unless you come from Canada, of course.

[Trillium]

NASL needs to affliate with NPSL and have promotion and relegation from NASL Div2, NASL Div3 and NPSL amateur.

Introduction of pro/rel is the most clear way for NASL to show its difference from MLS and to become the buisiness option for all those cities that MLS will never go to.

NPSL is geographic and NASL Div 3 should be geographic then pro/rel to the "North American Wide" league. With such a structure a club can start in LA at NPSL and build to be in NASL Div2 in three years this helps the issue of facing MLS clubs in their current markets with competition that can grow to be viable clubs with very low risk/investment.

It would allow NASL to build a presence in numerous markets, especially Chicago, or a Houston etc. and catch MSL clubs with horrible records in the public mind with winning and entertaining soccer at lower divisional level.

[Pqhbv]

The idea of USL splitting up again seems merely to be something people on the internet fantasize about because they are opposed to reserve teams.

Presently, the USL is simply not big enough to split itself up and cotemporaneously maintain its cost competitive edge against the NASL. Any number of ways where you remove the reserve teams or create a USL premiership you are essentially left with a small D2 league similar in size to the NASL, with similar travel costs and operating budgets. Perhaps, if the USL had ~40 teams and 16-18 independent clubs that wanted to go to the next level together a split could occur and be successful. 

The only way the USL successfully goes to D2 is if the whole league does, and given the recent shedding of Wilmington, we may see that the USL's move to D2 may shed some more independent teams. IIRC there are many teams in the current USL that do not meet the stadium requirements for D2 standards -which waivers could be obtained- as well as several teams who simply do not have the market size available to be competitive at a more expensive tier.

IMO if the USL gets D2 sanctioning, the league will contract and shed a few more independents which may potentially contribute to a new D3 forming with other interested cities. I think the ideal of having the current USL reserve teams in that D3 will not happen and is nothing more than wishful vapourware.

[Kurt-MTL]

Pqhbv: The article did quote at least one USL club executive as saying that, essentially the league may be best served by splitting again. I suppose you can infer what you like from the quote but I think it's a little more than just "people on the internet fantasizing" at this point. 

"Louisville City FC president Amanda Duffy suggested to the Louisville Courier-Journal that a culling of weak clubs from the top level of USL could be in the league’s best interest, ”I think there will be a point where some of the organizations will be forced to make decisions,” Duffy said. “And in my opinion, I think we’ll see continued evolution of this sport at the Division 2 and Division 3 levels. Expectations and operating expenses will go up for some of the current organizations and there will be a point where the revenues just don’t match those operating expenses.”

[Bison44]

Would this be the one spot where a pro-relegation style system might work?  30 teams and counting is a big league to wrangle.  Not sure how the affliated MLS squads would work into that though.    

[jpg75]

Depends how the investors feel about getting relegated and seeing their investment depreciate.

[Yohan]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Would this be the one spot where a pro-relegation style system might work?  30 teams and counting is a big league to wrangle.  Not sure how the affliated MLS squads would work into that though.    

I don't think they will look at relegation.

If there is a support to create separate USL 1 and 2 leagues, it will be because of costs of running a team. Just like how USL used do it a while ago.

If you want to be in USL 1, you meet certain requirements. If not, you start in USL 2 and move up to USL 1 once you can meet the requirements.

[Pqhbv]

@Kurt-MTL What I infer from that quote is more that Duffy is frustrated about the confines he's in and wants to better his situation. This is good and all, except that he is echoing exactly what I am saying, the USL needs to shed teams to be at D2. The remaining teams are not enough to form a viable D3 as their operating expenses will skyrocket with the lose of low travel cost opponents. 

Additionally Kurt, I have another tangent -albeit related- you might be able to give me your opinion on: FC MTL is horribly attended, in your opinion (as the hypothetical President of MTL Impact FC) would the option of running a U-23 academy style team in the PLSQ and then loaning out other developmental prospects to other USL teams be financially more viable? At what point do you keep your second team in if the USL splits?

In a sense, what I'm poking at is that perhaps, the USL at D2 would be a skeleton of what it is now and resemble the current NASL. If small market independents can't keep up, and MLS second squads just don't make sense anymore, I forsee a more pessimistic view of USL's move to D2 than many others. 

[Kurt-MTL]

@Pqhbv I see what you're saying and you're correct as the article did mention that if a split were to occur, there would only be about 12 teams in USL who could form a "respectable" D2 (same number as in NASL). However, the article also goes on to say that there are a few USL clubs below this "upper-echelon" who could be waiting in the wings to make the proverbial leap up to D2 if called upon (granted this is currently only a small handful of clubs). I guess my point was that there is at least some recognition on the part of USL that in order to get to a higher level, a split is likely necessary (presuming that their application for D2 is denied). Again, more than just a few people on the internet fantasizing at this point. And to reiterate, I'm not advocating for USL as D2, especially not in its current form (I'm actually a fan of the NASL model and hope to see it continue to grow and expand).  

Regarding what would happen to the other teams should a split occur, I would argue that given USL's aggressive expansion strategy they would probably be able to fill out their D3 ranks pretty quickly (especially given that the application requirements would probably be less stringent at the D3 level); alternatively they could go to a more regional model for their D3 clubs, thus limiting travel. 

Regarding your tangent, I think it would depend on the operating costs in each scenario and how much the Impact would be willing to invest/spend. As it stands, it seems like their main goal with FC Montreal is "development" as opposed to additional revenue for the club. I would therefore argue that having their academy guys playing and training at a higher level would be beneficial (presuming we can agree that USL is a higher level than PLSQ) despite the poor attendance. That said, if the operating costs of having a team in USL become too high, then certainly having the club playing in PLSQ is better than nothing. I have not watched any PLSQ (or USL games for that matter) so really can't comment as to the relative advantages/disadvantages to either league vis-a-vis development, training, etc.  

[Yohan]

I think USL will eventually split into a D2 and D3 league, with D2 being once that are more serious about winning vice D3 ones that are more into development and/or can't afford to meet D2 financial commitments.

Pro is that you get a more competitive D2 and maybe more financial incentives, but con is D3 developmental teams don't get the benefit of playing more competitive sides.

I honestly don't see NASL lasting. Too unstable and too many cards stacked against them.