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Canada vs Uzbekistan Tuesday June 7th (10amET/7amPT). Game thread.


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2 hours ago, Moldy9 said:

Yet another convincing victory for Canada! Chalk it up boys 2018 here we come! Add this to the highlight reel behind our last win vs Honduras with that spectacular back goal. We can show the clips to the guys to pump them up before they get on the pitch in San Pedro Sula. 

You and Vince193 should have a baby! 

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2 hours ago, Keegan said:

Ricketts is arguably our fastest player, Tesho is fast, Larin is fast.  We don't have any "slow" attackers, it seems we just lack the technical ability to string together quick counters.  

This is exactly why Tesho shouldn't start on the right wing, He is simply a goal scorer not a creative winger. 

 

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59 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Petrasso...

Exactly. Right now Petrasso is only called to play friendlies, but he is the kind of players that we need in the qualifiers if we aspire to make some counter attacks. 

 

2 hours ago, Keegan said:

Ask any scout and they will tell you Larin is very fast.  He looks sluggish but he is deceptively very quick.  

What's the point you are trying to make with Larin? He's not a fast player and furthermore, he's a striker, not exactly a position where you start counter attacks, which is what your brought in the first place.

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21 minutes ago, canucklefan said:

What's the point you are trying to make with Larin? He's not a fast player and furthermore, he's a striker, not exactly a position where you start counter attacks, which is what your brought in the first place.

My point is that he IS a fast player.  And no he doesn't start counter attacks but how is that relevant?  He needs to be involved in the build up and/or finish.  A fast striker is pretty much a trademark of a counter attacking team.. 

To be clear, I think we have fast players.  But I don't think those players have the technical ability outside of Hoilett to string together effective counters.  

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18 minutes ago, Keegan said:

My point is that he IS a fast player.  And no he doesn't start counter attacks but how is that relevant?  He needs to be involved in the build up and/or finish.  A fast striker is pretty much a trademark of a counter attacking team.. 

To be clear, I think we have fast players.  But I don't think those players have the technical ability outside of Hoilett to string together effective counters.  

We have pIayers who could in theory spring passes to set up a counter attack, but Floro's system doesn't really allow those players to see the field, or even get called up.

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21 minutes ago, Vince193 said:

We have pIayers who could in theory spring passes to set up a counter attack, but Floro's system doesn't really allow those players to see the field, or even get called up.

Players who can spring passes in theory? Dream theory? Who is a good passer or counter attacking player that isn't getting called up? To counterattack we need either guys who can make accurate medium and long distance passes and/or speedy players with good ball control who can make individual attacks and finish. I only see three players like that in our entire player pool, Hutch, Hoilett and Arfield. If we have all 3 on the pitch in our next games maybe we will be able to do some effective counterattacking. Petrasso showed some promise too and Akindele showed more of this skill than I have seen from him in the past and with all 3 of the above on the pitch maybe Larin would be more effective as a target man. However, where are the counterattacking guys who Floro is not calling or not allowing to play their style? Also being able to counterattack is good if you have the players for it but it is not the be all and end all of strategies. I would rather be able to keep possession like we did in the last 2 games against Honduras and El Salvador than be sitting back and counterattacking.

I don't mind people criticizing Floro and I have some criticisms of him myself but so much of the anti-Floro stuff here seems to be based on having a really low opinion and little knowledge of our opponents and/or some unreal ideas of how good our player pool is and what our players are capable of.

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3 minutes ago, Grizzly said:

Players who can spring passes in theory? Dream theory? Who is a good passer or counter attacking player that isn't getting called up? To counterattack we need either guys who can make accurate medium and long distance passes and/or speedy players with good ball control who can make individual attacks and finish. I only see three players like that in our entire player pool, Hutch, Hoilett and Arfield. If we have all 3 on the pitch in our next games maybe we will be able to do some effective counterattacking. Petrasso showed some promise too and Akindele showed more of this skill than I have seen from him in the past and with all 3 of the above on the pitch maybe Larin would be more effective as a target man. However, where are the counterattacking guys who Floro is not calling or not allowing to play their style? Also being able to counterattack is good if you have the players for it but it is not the be all and end all of strategies. I would rather be able to keep possession like we did in the last 2 games against Honduras and El Salvador than be sitting back and counterattacking.

I don't mind people criticizing Floro and I have some criticisms of him myself but so much of the anti-Floro stuff here seems to be based on having a really low opinion and little knowledge of our opponents and/or some unreal ideas of how good our player pool is and what our players are capable of.

Osorio?

 

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Watching the game. Can someone explain to me the point with these bloody short corners that always end up going nowhere/losing possession and chance of putting it in the box. 

Well what do you know: THATS A GOAL FOR CANADA!!!! They actually put the ball in the box off a free kick and Edgar puts the ball in w a header. Holy crap FML! Finally! Enough with this monkey crap short corner nonsense. For a sec I thought they were going to take a "short" free kick!

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14 hours ago, Ngravs9 said:

If I had to choose one tactic I hated in soccer it would be the short corner, I understand it's not get a guy free in the box but for the amount of times it fails and you don't even get a cross it's not worth it

If anyone is a nut for statistics, I'd like to see how often short corners amount to anything other than giving the ball away.  

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10 hours ago, adrenaline11 said:

 

Thank you!  I wasn't able to see the match live, and having read through the comments, I couldn't wait to see the spectacular header for our second goal.  Laughing made me spew beer all over my screen, but it was worth it.

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2 hours ago, Alex1775 said:

Osorio?

 

I wouldn't describe him as a good medium or long range passer, nor is he particularly fast. Even his ball control isn't the best.

To his credit though, he is very good in tight spaces and possesses good attacking instincts

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I am not a fan of short corners in general but I think the reason Floro is using them is he has assessed accurately that we don't have anyone who can consistently and accurately deliver the ball into the box on corners. We have some tall players that in theory should be able to score on corners but we don't have players capable of placing the ball in the right spot for them to score. Even DeJong who has usually been our best corner taker recently is a lot better on free kicks than on corner placement. The only really good corner taker in the player pool is Bekker but I don't think that is enough to get him a start (recent improvements in other areas of his game might be but that is probably not going to happen by the time of the Honduras game). Poorly placed corners are very dangerous on the counterattack particularly against a team like Honduras. Floro probably thinks we have at least as high a chance of scoring from a short play as on an inconsistently placed corner and much less chance of giving up a dangerous counterattack going the other direction. He may not be wrong in that assessment either, there was a time when Canada used to score a lot of corners but that is a long time ago, we haven't really been good on that for a long time well preceding Floro.

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12 hours ago, Keegan said:

Ask any scout and they will tell you Larin is very fast.  He looks sluggish but he is deceptively very quick.  

I agree, and you can see it when you watch him play--a ball veers off to the side and he beats the defender to it, gets his back between the ball and the defence. 

Another thing is if he does not push defending, he does not aggressively attack the ball like what they were asking of Rickets and Junior yesterday, running at the keeper on the back passes. I think Larin has it in him, but if he can score, they'll forgive his lack of defensive pace.

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8 hours ago, Grizzly said:

Players who can spring passes in theory? Dream theory? Who is a good passer or counter attacking player that isn't getting called up? To counterattack we need either guys who can make accurate medium and long distance passes and/or speedy players with good ball control who can make individual attacks and finish. I only see three players like that in our entire player pool, Hutch, Hoilett and Arfield. If we have all 3 on the pitch in our next games maybe we will be able to do some effective counterattacking. Petrasso showed some promise too and Akindele showed more of this skill than I have seen from him in the past and with all 3 of the above on the pitch maybe Larin would be more effective as a target man. However, where are the counterattacking guys who Floro is not calling or not allowing to play their style? Also being able to counterattack is good if you have the players for it but it is not the be all and end all of strategies. I would rather be able to keep possession like we did in the last 2 games against Honduras and El Salvador than be sitting back and counterattacking.

I don't mind people criticizing Floro and I have some criticisms of him myself but so much of the anti-Floro stuff here seems to be based on having a really low opinion and little knowledge of our opponents and/or some unreal ideas of how good our player pool is and what our players are capable of.

Another who is an accurate passer who could spring counters,.but tends to play shorter and horizontally, is Piette. For me he was our best passer yesterday along with Arfield, he was accurate and often first timing. But he does not look for the longer ball forwards, he needs to get the confidence to do that. 

A team wanting to counter has to have everyone in the mind-set, starting with the keeper. All the defenders, everyone. Rafa Marquéz was a great player for counterattacking tactics, he was slow, well positioned--but could lay out 40 yard passes into space and start counters. I don't think we have this long displacement from the back, but we probably could work it from the middle as we have the technique with Junior to receive the long balls up the wings.

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8 hours ago, Moldy9 said:

Watching the game. Can someone explain to me the point with these bloody short corners that always end up going nowhere/losing possession and chance of putting it in the box. 

Well what do you know: THATS A GOAL FOR CANADA!!!! They actually put the ball in the box off a free kick and Edgar puts the ball in w a header. Holy crap FML! Finally! Enough with this monkey crap short corner nonsense. For a sec I thought they were going to take a "short" free kick!

There is a reason for this that is tactical that no one gets. I think it is wrongly interpreted, but since I watch a team that has abused the tactic to death (Barça before Luis Enrique) I understand the logic: you control the play out of the corner and are less exposed to a counter. In Barça's case it was also because we did not have high ball acumen (we do now). For Canada, I think it is only to be conservative when in attack.

Do you think we do short corners to ensure we are not countered off them? Did you notice we only  started to do them a goal up? I think this is what Floro has in mind.

There is one other possible reason: to mix it up so you can get an advantage, have the defense thinking you may do a couple of things off a corner, then exploit the high one to the penalty spot.

Since we should be able to have an edge in free kicks vs. some C American teams, I think it is mistaken to renounce them so much; if you set up your mids properly on top of the box, the backs, your whole alignment, you should be able to cut counters off failed conventional corners. Even if you have to foul or earn a card to do it.

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6 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Another who is an accurate passer who could spring counters,.but tends to play shorter and horizontally, is Piette. For me he was our best passer yesterday along with Arfield, he was accurate and often first timing. But he does not look for the longer ball forwards, he needs to get the confidence to do that. 

.

I thought Piette had a very good match yesterday doing as you said, breaking up plays and making accurate passes to begin possession, I just hope he can start doing this on a consistent basis and become a constant starter in that position!

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19 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There is a reason for this that is tactical that no one gets. I think it is wrongly interpreted, but since I watch a team that has abused the tactic to death (Barça before Luis Enrique) I understand the logic: you control the play out of the corner and are less exposed to a counter. In Barça's case it was also because we did not have high ball acumen (we do now). For Canada, I think it is only to be conservative when in attack.

Do you think we do short corners to ensure we are not countered off them? Did you notice we only  started to do them a goal up? I think this is what Floro has in mind.

There is one other possible reason: to mix it up so you can get an advantage, have the defense thinking you may do a couple of things off a corner, then exploit the high one to the penalty spot.

Since we should be able to have an edge in free kicks vs. some C American teams, I think it is mistaken to renounce them so much; if you set up your mids properly on top of the box, the backs, your whole alignment, you should be able to cut counters off failed conventional corners. Even if you have to foul or earn a card to do it.

lmfaooo

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2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There is a reason for this that is tactical that no one gets. I think it is wrongly interpreted, but since I watch a team that has abused the tactic to death (Barça before Luis Enrique) I understand the logic: you control the play out of the corner and are less exposed to a counter. In Barça's case it was also because we did not have high ball acumen (we do now). For Canada, I think it is only to be conservative when in attack.

Do you think we do short corners to ensure we are not countered off them? Did you notice we only  started to do them a goal up? I think this is what Floro has in mind.

There is one other possible reason: to mix it up so you can get an advantage, have the defense thinking you may do a couple of things off a corner, then exploit the high one to the penalty spot.

Since we should be able to have an edge in free kicks vs. some C American teams, I think it is mistaken to renounce them so much; if you set up your mids properly on top of the box, the backs, your whole alignment, you should be able to cut counters off failed conventional corners. Even if you have to foul or earn a card to do it.

I couldn't find any significant statistics on the internet on the merits of long vs. short. There were a couple of reports using very small sample sizes: one for a Leeds University thesis and one from a Blackpool fan. There's plenty of discussion of the statistical likelihood of scoring from a corner at all, which is apparently something under 2%. I think the Swindon fan article below makes a good point: we tend to remember the corners that went in, not the hundreds that fail. Since the vast majority of corners we've seen are long, of course we've seen lots more goals scored from long corners. I have to admit though, that I don't seem to remember much in the way of goals being scored from a short corner.

Most articles I read mention the reduced susceptibility to the counterattack in a short corner as well as the hope of "mixing it up" causing some uncertainty for defenders.

corners in general: http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2010/12/corner-kicks-by-numbers.html

short corners:

blackpool: https://measuredprogress.co.uk/2011/02/18/cornering-the-goals-market/

bf692-longandshortofit.png?w=320&h=102

swindon: https://thewashbag.com/2012/04/26/taking-the-long-view-on-short-corners/

Leeds University: http://www.slideshare.net/benw1991/which-is-more-effective-in-taking-corners-in-football-short-or-long

 

 

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2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

 

Do you think we do short corners to ensure we are not countered off them? Did you notice we only  started to do them a goal up? I think this is what Floro has in mind.

 

Against Mexico at least, we were doing them every time even when we were down 2-0 in Azteca. With the number of centre-backs that Floro likes to start, it seems wasteful not to try them at all. One thing that struck me about all the players lining up in the box on the Edgar goal yesterday is that the shortest player among them was our target forward, Ricketts (who doesn't exactly have Messi-like lack of height). The rest (Henry, Vitoria, Akindele, Edgar) were all taller than him and that was without throwing Jakovic & Ouimette in the box (because presumably someone had to defend in case of a counter). That is a lot of height for any team to defend against on set pieces.

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Well if you go back to the Azerbaijan match you'll notice right off the bat in the second minute we won a corner. And... we took it short. So it really has nothing to do with taking a lead. This is Floroball. 

Floroball [flor-oh-bawl]

noun

1. A slow paced, boring, defensive brand of soccer most commonly played in Canada from 2014 to 2016. Named after its creator: Benito Floro. Intended to put the opponent and supporters to sleep. Executed by having 10 men defend (turtle) in own half, 1 lone striker to produce attack, and taking short corners. Achieved when score line results primarily in a 0-0 draw.  

2. To hold out in hopes of a miracle, act of God, error by the other person or complete stroke of good luck.  Some Fort McMurray residents floroballed in their homes as the fires spread. 

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3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There is a reason for this that is tactical that no one gets. I think it is wrongly interpreted, but since I watch a team that has abused the tactic to death (Barça before Luis Enrique) I understand the logic: you control the play out of the corner and are less exposed to a counter.

I can't accept the theory that we are less exposed to the counter through a short corner.  

1) We lose the ball pretty much every time and 2) even if we do get the ball in the box how are we less exposed?  We still have our men forward and 2 defenders back. If we didn't it would make the 2 v 1 completely pointless. 

I would argue that we are actually more exposed to a counter from the short corner.  It's much easier for a defender to play a direct ball to a teammate from the corner/flank than it is under pressure in the box. 

IMO Floro thinks that we have a better chance to score coming in from a 2 v 1 on the corner.  I would bet that successful 2 v 1s work more often than direct corners into the box in football, even if we can't find an exact stat... BUT they are also much harder to pull off.  Also, it would be much easier to pull off if we didn't do it every single time... it would be a nice change up but when it's obvious it's the easiest thing to defend in the world unless the team is just trying to kill the game in the corner.  

All Honduras' manager needs to tell his players is to anticipate and make it a 2 v 2 situation... 99% of the time we will lose the ball and give the opponent a chance to counter.  

The even more infuriating thing is that we actually have been pretty successful off direct corners/free kicks under Floro!    

Edgar v Jamaica, Haber v Guatemala, Ricketts v Moldova and now Edgar v Uzbekistan (and he also arguably drew a PK), I think Hainault also drew a PK off a corner or FK v Bulgaria?

Goals from 2 v 1s: ZERO

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I can't accept the theory that we are less exposed to the counter through a short corner.  

I can assure you having watched hundreds by Barça over the years, most fans here totally agree. It is a bit of a fad, unfortunately one that my club team is partially responsible for making popular.

All we needed was a single assistant coach (Unzue at Barça) with some ability in organizing and training free kicks to come along and make the conventional types work again.

Floro announced when he was hired we'd do this. If he has renounced it, he he basically admitting he does not know how to coach them. Which is odd, because it is not true. Our goal yesterday was super coached. They shouted from the bench, "Eddy, three", and he went to the third position in our line up perpendicular to goal, watch it, he is in 2 and goes to three. Three means go far post. Everyone in the line has a designated run, all five in that case. It was very well coached. So why would Floro renounce such a play on corners?

There is another huge problem with them: they expose you to an offside call. On a corner kick no one is offside, you can go where you want, do what you want. Since the defending team places someone on a post who is told to stay there to the end of the play, you can always be onside. 

Short corners a smart team will come out, the guy on the post included--which is why so many get called for offside, eg when the guy receiving gives back to the original taker who is too deep. 

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