League1 Ontario general news thread

[Complete Homer]

37 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I seriously doubt that L1O is ever going to become a pro league, because the NCAA issue is always going to be there for the youth-oriented clubs that get involved in setups like OPDL that are designed to feed into L1O. Nothing wrong with that either. All I am saying is that they shouldn't be allowed to pretend to be something that they are not and that they should have to demonstrate competitively that they are actually better than teams in elite amateur leagues like the OSL. I strongly suspect that might not go the way some people on here would expect.  

And I seriously doubt that paying 5 players on the team 2000 bucks is some sort of insurmountable task. That's the "pro" side of this pro-am league, and it's completely reasonable to keep pursuing an intermediate level between top amateur leagues and fully pro teams beyond the first couple seasons

I don't see how your point could be defended. The fact that L1O might not grow into something better, even with a large shift in the soccer landscape on the horizon, we shouldn't even bother trying? Really? Maybe if they don't have any "pro" teams after seven or eight seasons you pull their sanctioning to let someone else try, but to pull sanctioning on an actively growing and improving league because they haven't hit all their targets in 3 seasons is asinine. 

They realize that if they forced teams to the pro side at launch, they would never get anyone on board. By making it an option to stay amateur st launch, in time, with the league better entrenched and with clubs invested in having a team in the top provincial league, more stringent guidelines can always be phased in. Good luck doing that in a league chartered as an amateur league 

It seems like anything Rossi or Montagliani touch are bad in your opinion, and it makes me glad I'm a "newcomer"  that avoided becoming embittered by Ontario's past politics

Edited December 22, 2016 by Complete Homer

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

PLSQ seem to be able to do something that is legitimately semi-pro in Quebec. My point was that L1O should have to do the same in Ontario to be able to keep their D3 pro level sanctioning. Not sure what is off base or unreasonable about that so will walk away from this thread for now.

Edited December 22, 2016 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Complete Homer]

23 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

PLSQ seem to be able to do something that is legitimately semi-pro in Quebec. My point was that L1O should have to do the same in Ontario to be able to keep their D3 pro level sanctioning. Not sure what is off base or unreasonable about that so will walk away from this thread for now.

Yep, after existing for several years they are finally phasing in semi professional contracts. Amazing what patience has accomplished

[Zem]

16 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

PLSQ seem to be able to do something that is legitimately semi-pro in Quebec. My point was that L1O should have to do the same in Ontario to be able to keep their D3 pro level sanctioning. Not sure what is off base or unreasonable about that so will walk away from this thread for now.

... and they haven't expanded past 7 clubs in 5 seasons, with 6 different clubs dropping out of the league in that time (7 if you count Fury Academy).

The problem is that there's no real market for pro players in L1O at the moment, so there's no incentive to spend extra money on players for essentially no reason when they can just sign them to amateur contracts. There needs to be real competition between clubs for players' signatures before they'll be willing to put money forward for contracts.

What other semi-pro leagues usually do is they allow clubs to sign players professionally if they want, but they don't have to sign any if they don't want to. This works a lot better in systems that have deep players pools and lots of players dropping down from higher leagues to find playing time, and promotion/relegation is also a big incentive for clubs to be competitive and chase after good players. League1 doesn't even have a national cup competition to look forward to at the moment, but hopefully that and the additional players from the CPL will help the semi-pro leagues develop in the future.

The point is, it takes time and you can't expect a sustainable semi-pro league to just appear overnight for no reason. League1 is still Ontario's best league and clubs do still have the option to go semi-pro if they want/can, so de-sanctioning the league would be brash at best. I would agree that L1O is maybe too development-focused at the cost of competitiveness, but I would also argue that the PLSQ is far too obsessed with being Quebec's "national" super-elite league to the point where many clubs literally can't afford to play in the league. Neither league is doing a perfect job, but what ultimately matters is that the leagues exist and the groundwork is set for the future development of semi-pro soccer.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

PLSQ seem to be able to do something that is legitimately semi-pro in Quebec. My point was that L1O should have to do the same in Ontario to be able to keep their D3 pro level sanctioning. Not sure what is off base or unreasonable about that so will walk away from this thread for now.

Another way to look at it is that the Inter Provincial Cup competition between L1O and PLSQ has been competitive every year (aside from the first leg of the 2014 edition if I remember correctly). These leagues to be playing at roughly the same level, so in my mind it makes sense for them to both be D3.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Don't think it is safe to assume that L1O is automatically better than the OSL, because they may have pushed very hard on the development focus to attract large suburban youth clubs that have never made much of an impact in senior level leagues. The willingness of ex-MLS players like Adrian Cann and Terry Dunfield to play in an unsanctioned bush league with a reputation for game-fixing in preference to L1O suggests all is not going as it should be as ideally they are exactly the type of player that should be passing on their experience to younger players in the mainstream league system.

Australia is worth a look for what can be achieved one step down from air travel pro leagues. Queensland has a franchise system somewhat similar to PLSQ as a way to make sure that smaller remote cities stay involved, but the other states use pro/rel and it seems to work well for them. It has never been fully clear to me why the provincial soccer associations in Canada don't just focus on building up the existing provincial level league structures and allow clubs at that level to openly pay players if they want to and can sustain it. 

Australia has the same ethnic club issues that are the most likely explanation for avoiding conventional pro/rel, and have done a much better job of developing the sport in an environment where it wasn't the main one in spectator and media coverage terms because they have successfully kept everybody that was passionate about it in the same structure pushing in the same direction.

[yellowsweatygorilla]

Anyone know if there is a place with information on L1O rosters - DOB, positions, height, weight?

Trying to fill out rosters for a football manager (video game) game mod I am making. It's a real pain individually researching each player.

[Zem]

2 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Anyone know if there is a place with information on L1O rosters - DOB, positions, height, weight?

Trying to fill out rosters for a football manager (video game) game mod I am making. It's a real pain individually researching each player.

I know the League1 Ontario and PLSQ websites don't supply that kind of information, I would just try googling the players' names individually. Many of them currently play or have played in CIS or NCAA and some are former pros, so there are a fair few profiles with that kind of info floating around. A bit pain-staking, but I don't know any other way you could do it if you want to add all of the real players.

[Rocket Robin]

2 hours ago, Zem said:

I know the League1 Ontario and PLSQ websites don't supply that kind of information, I would just try googling the players' names individually. Many of them currently play or have played in CIS or NCAA and some are former pros, so there are a fair few profiles with that kind of info floating around. A bit pain-staking, but I don't know any other way you could do it if you want to add all of the real players.

or endlessly looking at the pictures....

http://www.rocketrobinsoccerintoronto.com/reports16/16l1o069.htm  page down near the bottom

hmm that #6 on Durham is taller than most of the other guys. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Rocket Robin

[Kent]

22 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Don't think it is safe to assume that L1O is automatically better than the OSL, because they may have pushed very hard on the development focus to attract large suburban youth clubs that have never made much of an impact in senior level leagues. The willingness of ex-MLS players like Adrian Cann and Terry Dunfield to play in an unsanctioned bush league with a reputation for game-fixing in preference to L1O suggests all is not going as it should be as ideally they are exactly the type of player that should be passing on their experience to younger players in the mainstream league system.

Australia is worth a look for what can be achieved one step down from air travel pro leagues. Queensland has a franchise system somewhat similar to PLSQ as a way to make sure that smaller remote cities stay involved, but the other states use pro/rel and it seems to work well for them. It has never been fully clear to me why the provincial soccer associations in Canada don't just focus on building up the existing provincial level league structures and allow clubs at that level to openly pay players if they want to and can sustain it. 

Australia has the same ethnic club issues that are the most likely explanation for avoiding conventional pro/rel, and have done a much better job of developing the sport in an environment where it wasn't the main one in spectator and media coverage terms because they have successfully kept everybody that was passionate about it in the same structure pushing in the same direction.

Agreed that we can't assume L1O is automatically better than OSL. However, I am more than happy for the OSA to do everything it can to help L1O grow and flourish so that it is the best path for development in Ontario. I am still holding out hope that when L1O gets a sufficient number of teams, it could create a L2O and use pro/rel. The league is getting very near to 20 teams, so we might even see it split into 2 in the next few years.

People keep calling for the Voyageurs Cup to be completely open to all teams, and I get that, but personally I think the V-Cup could be used to make sure our best talents play together rather than being fragmented across several leagues (L1O, OSL, CSL), so for that reason I'd like for it to be opened up to L1O, and not the others (PLSQ I'd also like to see involved).

I don't know the reason why L1O was created rather than working with the pre-existing OSL, and I don't know the difference in the leagues in terms of standards, but for better or worse it is the chosen league, so it's the one I'm rooting for to succeed.

[yellowsweatygorilla]

I have another question related to the game mod. Having only watched one L1O game in its first year, I was wondering how the standards of the players compare with Canadian PDL teams?

Here's the scale used in Football Manager:

MLS depth players (Chapman, Morgan) are at about 100 (maximum/messi level is 200)

I had set the PDL players at 60-80 (mostly at 70 range, with a couple [mainly top scorers, captains, many appearances] at 90)

I am going to assume teams like Vaughan and Nitro on the top end, seeing as they are also filled with mainly university/college players, should be somewhat equivalent to PDL. Would the rest be at 50-70 range?

Edited December 28, 2016 by yellowsweatygorilla

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

I have another question related to the game mod. Having only watched one L1O game in its first year, I was wondering how the standards of the players compare with Canadian PDL teams?

Here's the scale used in Football Manager:

MLS depth players (Chapman, Morgan) are at about 100/200

I had set the PDL players at 60-80 (mostly at 60-70 range, with a couple [mainly top scorers, captains, many appearances] at 80)

I am going to assume teams like Vaughan and Nitro on the top end, seeing as they are also filled with mainly university/college players, should be somewhat equivalent to PDL. Would the rest be at 50-70 range?

I kind of mentally peg L1O as a Div 4.25 in the US pyramid, however with a lot of variation.  Your top half-dozen or so teams might be competitive in PDL, while the bottom third of the league wouldn't even register.

The only two points of cross-over are FC London moving from PDL in 2015 to L1O in 2016, and TFCA's player base moving from PDL to L1O once the PDL season ends in July.  In FCL's case, they won about two-thirds of their games in both seasons (9/14 in 2015 PDL, 15/22 in 2016 L1O), so I'd say it's comparable.  In TFCA's case, they typically go from average results in the L1O summer with their D team (6W 0D 6L this season) to good results in the L1O fall when their C team moves over from PDL (6W 2D 2L this season).

Makes it interesting to me that they'd make their L1O team "TFC3" for this upcoming season - my guess would be that's due to CSA sanctioning issues, though it's also possible that they don't feel competitive enough in PDL and therefore don't think it's a good development avenue when they're losing two-thirds of their matches.

[Rintaran]

39 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

I kind of mentally peg L1O as a Div 4.25 in the US pyramid, however with a lot of variation.  Your top half-dozen or so teams might be competitive in PDL, while the bottom third of the league wouldn't even register.

The only two points of cross-over are FC London moving from PDL in 2015 to L1O in 2016, and TFCA's player base moving from PDL to L1O once the PDL season ends in July.  In FCL's case, they won about two-thirds of their games in both seasons (9/14 in 2015 PDL, 15/22 in 2016 L1O), so I'd say it's comparable.  In TFCA's case, they typically go from average results in the L1O summer with their D team (6W 0D 6L this season) to good results in the L1O fall when their C team moves over from PDL (6W 2D 2L this season).

Makes it interesting to me that they'd make their L1O team "TFC3" for this upcoming season - my guess would be that's due to CSA sanctioning issues, though it's also possible that they don't feel competitive enough in PDL and therefore don't think it's a good development avenue when they're losing two-thirds of their matches.

I'm fairly certain there won't be a TFC team in the PDL this year. 2016 was supposed to be the last year for any PDL sides in Ontario. K-W & TB fought that ruling, but TFC apparently didn't feel a need at this point. TFC has yet to confirm one way or another however.

I also agree with your assessment: Top 6-8 teams in L1O would be about the PDL average, bottom 3rd would probably have trouble against PDL's basement. PLSQ is even worse off though. CSMRO & AS Blainville could be about PDL average, remaining 2/3 would have trouble against the basement.

The only way to really know how they would do would be to incorporate the whole bunch into the Voyageurs Cup. Sadly, that doesn't look like the route the CSA will travel.

[Zem]

1 minute ago, Rintaran said:

The only way to really know how they would do would be to incorporate the whole bunch into the Voyageurs Cup. Sadly, that doesn't look like the route the CSA will travel.

The CSA has stated their intention to add the tier 3 clubs to the VC in the future, but obviously they're trying to move away from the PDL so I doubt any clubs still in that league will ever be incorporated until they move to the all-Canadian pyramid.

[Gopherbashi]

10 minutes ago, Rintaran said:

K-W & TB fought that ruling, but TFC apparently didn't feel a need at this point.

Got any additional info on that first bit?  I can't say I'd heard anything about it.

[Rintaran]

2 minutes ago, Zem said:

The CSA has stated their intention to add the tier 3 clubs to the VC in the future, but obviously they're trying to move away from the PDL so I doubt any clubs still in that league will ever be incorporated until they move to the all-Canadian pyramid.

Yup, but without any 3rd-div leagues in BC or the Prairies, there isn't much choice for most PDL teams. I also heard VC qualification might not include all Can 3rd div, but instead be limited to the Interprovincial Cup Winner. That was the impression CSMRO's president gave me from his e-mail anyways.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Thunder Bay were told the end of OSA sanctioning thing didn't apply to them and was only aimed at London, Kitchener and Toronto.

[Rintaran]

1 minute ago, Gopherbashi said:

Got any additional info on that first bit?  I can't say I'd heard anything about it.

Just a twitter DM from K-W's supporter group that states exactly what I've just related.

I have a feeling (no proof) they're not talking about it in order to keep it from interfering with other potential developments. Thunder Bay was probably always going to be excluded though, the travel would have been brutal for them.

[Gopherbashi]

29 minutes ago, Rintaran said:

Yup, but without any 3rd-div leagues in BC or the Prairies, there isn't much choice for most PDL teams. I also heard VC qualification might not include all Can 3rd div, but instead be limited to the Interprovincial Cup Winner. That was the impression CSMRO's president gave me from his e-mail anyways.

Yeah, I'd be surprised at this point if they opened it up beyond the IPC winner - all indications point that way at least.  All depends on what happens with CPL I suppose.

Interesting with the western PDL teams - they've got 4 now, if another few hop on board I wonder if the CSA will consider that a critical mass and try and force them into an L1O-style D3 west league.

[Gopherbashi]

31 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Thunder Bay were told the end of OSA sanctioning thing didn't apply to them and was only aimed at London, Kitchener and Toronto.

 

29 minutes ago, Rintaran said:

Just a twitter DM from K-W's supporter group that states exactly what I've just related.

I have a feeling (no proof) they're not talking about it in order to keep it from interfering with other potential developments. Thunder Bay was probably always going to be excluded though, the travel would have been brutal for them.

I expect the OSA was been more concerned with the expenses placed upon L1O teams for twice-a-year flights to Thunder Bay.  Number of matches aside, it's not as if Thunder Bay would be spending more money by flying to Toronto instead of St. Louis.

[Levi Oakey]

The United ownership have no desire to play L1O. 

2 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

The only two points of cross-over are FC London moving from PDL in 2015 to L1O in 2016, and TFCA's player base moving from PDL to L1O once the PDL season ends in July.  

There have been 3 points of crossover if you include Oakville. Oakville went from the basement of the PDL to winning L1O the following season. London was well on their way to winning L1O until September hit and they lost players. Also, London changed their team significantly between the two years, including their former coach he went to the PDL.

[yellowsweatygorilla]

I realize to make the fm mod playable, I've had to overrate the Canadian PDL rosters quite a bit - to mid/lower-end USL levels, in order to stop teams from gutting their entire roster. 

I suppose another question is the standards of the proposed CPL. I presume the bulk of the Canadian players on the teams will be drawn from PDL (or PDL level) ranks?  We have a lot of players playing internationally, but I'd be really surprised if 100 players come back home. 

[Kent]

I haven't had the time to read the whole article yet, but apparently 49 players in L1O represented Canada in 2016, obviously including youth levels, and both men and women.

http://www.league1ontario.com/news_article/show/706457?referrer_id=2309049

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Mainly TFC Academy on the men's side of things, so that doesn't prove much either way on whether L1O is the best way to go in organizational terms, as those TFC affiliated players would almost certainly still have received the same callups, if the TFC Academy teams were in another setup.

Edited January 4, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[maccaliam]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Mainly TFC Academy on the men's side of things, so that doesn't prove much either way on whether L1O is the best way to go in organizational terms, as those TFC affiliated players would almost certainly still have received the same callups, if the TFC Academy teams were in another setup.

Would the flip side of that argument not be that they may not have had another set-up to play in without L1O?

More players having an additional opportunity to play soccer and progress through another level of the pyramid of play sounds like a proven positive to me.