Fikayo Tomori

[farrelld]

10 minutes ago, Addona said:

Yeah, but at that point, it's too late to call players in ... I think a "moderate" strategy is almost always best, i.e., call 2 or 3 of the top end dual national prospects in to the 23 man roster.  Any more than that is too many.  If there is an opportunity to play them for a few minutes that doesn't meaningfully alter our chances at making the HEX, do it.  Otherwise, it's still useful to get, say, 2 top end prospects introduced to the program.  In any case, spot #22 and #23 on the roster are usually not high impact spots so you may as well use them wisely.

 

Exactly instead of calling people like Froese, Aird or Thomas call young players who should be cap tied and if we need to waste time at the end of the game throw someone on who can help the program in the coming years and not someone who barely makes the squad not or is there for PR reasons.

[MtlMario]

The problem is that the current coach (like any other coach) is more worried about his job now than cap-tying players for the future when he probably won't be here anyways.

[C2SKI]

27 minutes ago, farrelld said:

Exactly instead of calling people like Froese, Aird or Thomas call young players who should be cap tied and if we need to waste time at the end of the game throw someone on who can help the program in the coming years and not someone who barely makes the squad not or is there for PR reasons.

Aird should really be the starting RB in my mind. Henry is a centre back and Ledgerwood is playing as a holding mid for Edmonton.

[Bertuzzi44]

Another honest question I think we need to ask is, are young players like Tomori, etc, actually better than some of the vets who seem to be automatic call-ups?

Lots of people were questioning James last game but he did very well.

Players like Ricketts, Ledgerwood, Straith, De Jong, even DeGuzman get a lot of caps, seemingly just for being the incumbent.

How much worse could a player like Tomori be? Honest question..

[jpg75]

47 minutes ago, Addona said:

Yeah, but at that point, it's too late to call players in ... I think a "moderate" strategy is almost always best, i.e., call 2 or 3 of the top end dual national prospects in to the 23 man roster.  Any more than that is too many.  If there is an opportunity to play them for a few minutes that doesn't meaningfully alter our chances at making the HEX, do it.  Otherwise, it's still useful to get, say, 2 top end prospects introduced to the program.  In any case, spot #22 and #23 on the roster are usually not high impact spots so you may as well use them wisely.

How is it too late to call players? Players can be added and removed between games, it happens all the time with injuries.  If the CSA were to contact the clubs and players prior it could be done. 

There's no way you sub a teenager into a WCQ in Honduras with everything on the line. 0-0 late in the game and you put Tabla, Davies or Tomori in? 

[Addona]

29 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

How is it too late to call players? Players can be added and removed between games, it happens all the time with injuries.  If the CSA were to contact the clubs and players prior it could be done. 

There's no way you sub a teenager into a WCQ in Honduras with everything on the line. 0-0 late in the game and you put Tabla, Davies or Tomori in? 

I didn't say to sub them in at 0-0 in Honduras!!!  I said, " If there is an opportunity to play them for a few minutes that doesn't meaningfully alter our chances at making the HEX, do it. "  So, if they are on the 23, and we are losing 3-0 in Honduras, then we can sub one in, and use 1 or 2 at home vs. ES, perhaps at the end of a match.

[Ottawafan74]

Can't see he or Doughty accepting an opportunity to play for the MNT at this stage. Why would they?  

[jpg75]

40 minutes ago, Addona said:

I didn't say to sub them in at 0-0 in Honduras!!!  I said, " If there is an opportunity to play them for a few minutes that doesn't meaningfully alter our chances at making the HEX, do it. "  So, if they are on the 23, and we are losing 3-0 in Honduras, then we can sub one in, and use 1 or 2 at home vs. ES, perhaps at the end of a match.

Ok gotcha. I'm not totally against that, but i still think my idea gives us more options for the Honduras game (you don't carry 3 kids who won't see the field).

edit: Tomori i could see being called based on merit. The other two would be way more cynical and would for sure wait until ES.

Edited April 19, 2016 by jpg75

[Addona]

1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

(you don't carry 3 kids who won't see the field).

Agreed. Maybe 3 is too many.  But call 1 or 2 in, and it could be a big payoff in the long run.  I know it's cynical ... but everyone else does it, so why shouldn't we.

[Bison44]

You should call 2-3 new youngsters every time!!  Those last 2-3 roster spots rarely play, but at least you get the youngsters in camp with Floro and the guys etc, training, learning the system etc.  Rotate those last couple roster spots and let the future at least get on the training pitch.  Maybe a Zanetta or Tomori dont play in this round, but they will be getting regular call ups sooner rather than later.  Lets get them ready now.  

[Blackdude]

36 minutes ago, Addona said:

Agreed. Maybe 3 is too many.  But call 1 or 2 in, and it could be a big payoff in the long run.  I know it's cynical ... but everyone else does it, so why shouldn't we.

The question is why would the players say yes if they see why they are doing that? If those players have aspirations to play for other countries, I doubt that they would say yes, because that mean that they would give up that. A player could turn his back on Canada because he sees their game. They fully know why Canada's doing that, and it's not because the player is good enough to play for Canada, it's because the player could be good enough to play for another country. If the player wanted to play for Canada all along, he'll play for Canada. If he didn't, he would probably decline the call-up until he believes that the dream is over.

[jpg75]

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take, Blackdude.

[Addona]

14 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

The question is why would the players say yes if they see why they are doing that? If those players have aspirations to play for other countries, I doubt that they would say yes, because that mean that they would give up that. A player could turn his back on Canada because he sees their game. They fully know why Canada's doing that, and it's not because the player is good enough to play for Canada, it's because the player could be good enough to play for another country. If the player wanted to play for Canada all along, he'll play for Canada. If he didn't, he would probably decline the call-up until he believes that the dream is over.

I mean, obviously I see your point and your logic is not flawed.  But I still think things happen that are sometimes irrational.  I admit that I don't know the whole Begovic story, but he was on our bench (and thus "ready" to be cap tied) until he changed his mind.  Or, Cavallini, who agreed to be cap tied until he decided it was a big mistake.

I just don't think it's as clear cut as the logic you lay out ... I wish it were.  The one thing I do know is that when they are cap tied, they are cap tied ... now, they can always pull a Cavallini and just not show up again, but I'm hopeful that only a very small minority would choose that option.

[Floortom]

Regardless of the cynical cap-tie angle, Tomori is good enough to be legitimately called up to the squad based on what I've seen from him. 

 

[C2SKI]

42 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

The question is why would the players say yes if they see why they are doing that? If those players have aspirations to play for other countries, I doubt that they would say yes, because that mean that they would give up that. A player could turn his back on Canada because he sees their game. They fully know why Canada's doing that, and it's not because the player is good enough to play for Canada, it's because the player could be good enough to play for another country. If the player wanted to play for Canada all along, he'll play for Canada. If he didn't, he would probably decline the call-up until he believes that the dream is over.

Its a pretty impressive accomplishment to play for your national team at 18. Don't you think?

[Blackdude]

10 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

Its a pretty impressive accomplishment to play for your national team at 18. Don't you think?

I never said that it isn't. I just think that captieing players at 18 isn't a strategy that is as easy as people on this board think it is. The question on him is not call him to captie him because he's young and could play for another country. The question should be whether to call him because he's good enough to be in the 23.

[rob.notenboom]

One thing that needs to be in the mix here: The track record of the CSA/coaches/whoever getting players to commit to Canada has done a 180 recently. Will that continue on down to the U20 level? Is it just a temporary flash in the pan? Who knows, but having the typical angst about players not being willing to be capped at the senior level is not necessarily as legitimate as it used to be. There is more likelihood that many of these players will accept the call. 

[Oranje]

1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take, Blackdude.

Pretty sure Michael Scott said that... not blackdude

[BCM]

3 hours ago, Addona said:

I mean, obviously I see your point and your logic is not flawed.  But I still think things happen that are sometimes irrational.  I admit that I don't know the whole Begovic story, but he was on our bench (and thus "ready" to be cap tied) until he changed his mind.  Or, Cavallini, who agreed to be cap tied until he decided it was a big mistake.

I just don't think it's as clear cut as the logic you lay out ... I wish it were.  The one thing I do know is that when they are cap tied, they are cap tied ... now, they can always pull a Cavallini and just not show up again, but I'm hopeful that only a very small minority would choose that option.

You're forgetting that Begovic WAS cap tied to Canada. He played for our U-21s. How could Mitchell have predicted the future and known FIFA would change the rules?

Edited April 20, 2016 by BCM

[El Hombre]

4 hours ago, Bison44 said:

You should call 2-3 new youngsters every time!!  Those last 2-3 roster spots rarely play, but at least you get the youngsters in camp with Floro and the guys etc, training, learning the system etc.  Rotate those last couple roster spots and let the future at least get on the training pitch.  Maybe a Zanetta or Tomori dont play in this round, but they will be getting regular call ups sooner rather than later.  Lets get them ready now.  

The problem is that we spend 6 pages of posts arguing about Osorio vs. Bekker when neither of them would see the pitch under the same circumstances.

I agree with the principal, just not the timing.  Cap-tieing players should be for the Gold Cup and not World Cup Qualifiers.  The 2017 Gold Cup should be a strong mix of vets and any non cap-tied player,  Give them 60 to 90 minutes rather than garbage time minutes to see how they do.

3 hours ago, Floortom said:

Regardless of the cynical cap-tie angle, Tomori is good enough to be legitimately called up to the squad based on what I've seen from him. 

 

Tomori's been playing against U19s though.  Aird probably looked pretty good against U19s too, but go back and revisit the comments after his first two games in MLS where some people wanted to run him out of town.

[Grizzly]

 

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

The problem is that we spend 6 pages of posts arguing about Osorio vs. Bekker when neither of them would see the pitch under the same circumstances.

I agree with the principal, just not the timing.  Cap-tieing players should be for the Gold Cup and not World Cup Qualifiers.  The 2017 Gold Cup should be a strong mix of vets and any non cap-tied player,  Give them 60 to 90 minutes rather than garbage time minutes to see how they do.

Tomori's been playing against U19s though.  Aird probably looked pretty good against U19s too, but go back and revisit the comments after his first two games in MLS where some people wanted to run him out of town.

I don't disagree that we should wait until players merit a call especially in WCQ but I don't think you are being very accurate about either Tomori or Aird. For one thing Tomori has been playing U21 not U19 and has faced a far higher level of U21 than Aird did in Scotland, playing both in the England U21 Premiership and the UEFA Youth League against the best youth teams in Europe. Pretty big difference playing against the Manchester United U21 and Ajax U21 versus Motherwell U21. Also I didn't bother to reread the comments but I don't remember most people being too harsh on Aird after his first 2 games nor thinking that he played poorly. I think most saw that he had talent and ability to play in MLS and did some nice things and was already at MLS level  but he was playing a new position to fill a need for the team and made errors for that reason. I think he has improved as he has learned the position but the jury is still out on whether he will be a MLS right back or not. I agree with him not being called for the Mexico games but if he ends up adapting to right back and improving his defending he could possibly merit a call up for the next set of games. Certainly not a guy who should be used as an example of a youth player who shone at the youth level and then sucked at the professional/national team level. If anything he looks very promising even if it ends up not being a right back, ie. from what I can see so far the debate is not whether will be good enough to be an MLS player, the debate is whether he can or should be a right back. (And I should also mention at the risk of causing a lot of Voyageur boners that Tomori is not only a right-sided CB but has also played RIGHT BACK extensively through his youth career  ) That is not to say he merits a call right away but he seems promising enough that we could at least call him for the upcoming friendlies and Floro could judge whether he is ready for a WCQ selection from there. As we all know we still have not found the solution for right back and while we have a lot of depth at CB we could certainly upgrade quality wise there as well. 

As for his motivation for getting capped by us instead of waiting for England and Nigeria, I think he would have a lot of motivation even if he is not feeling totally bound to Canada (and we don't know what his feelings are towards Canada nor how long his family stayed here, whether there is still a connection, etc.). While Nigeria is currently a better team than we are as much as we talk about the drawbacks of playing in CONCACAF there are a lot of drawbacks to playing in Africa even for one of the better teams, travel distances are similar to CONCACAF, (Montreal is roughly the same distance from London as Abuja and if they play in South Africa that is farther than Vancouver from London), the Federations are poorly run, players often not getting what they are promised from things ranging from level of accomodation to pay, travelling and playing in countries that are war zones or have bloody rebellions including Nigeria's Boko Haram problem, no leagues where one can make a good salary. I suspect if his heart was really set at playing for Nigeria he would already be playing for their U21. England is obviously more attractive but only a small percentage of even British Premiership players ever play for the national team so even if he has a good EPL career playing for England is a long shot. There are a lot of youth players, even promising ones at big team's academies who never go on to have big careers. At that age you have to take all opportunities to make it to the top, all exposure, high level opponents, working with different coaches. If I were his agent I would advise him to accept a full national team call up even if it meant getting capped because take what you can now to get to the highest level as opposed to waiting for the pipe dream if and when you make it. Most of the guys we lost or who turned us down were already near to getting a full cap with the other team. Tomori is still really far from getting a senior call up to either England or Nigeria so this is the time to go after him.

[baulderdash77]

Hey Grizzly- Paragraphs are your friends.  Good points but hard to read. 

[BCM]

9 hours ago, Grizzly said:

There are a lot of youth players, even promising ones at big team's academies who never go on to have big careers.

That would be the vast majority. The odds of this kid making it big as a pro are very slim, the odds of him even  becoming a decent professional are slim. That's just the odds. The majority of kids in the European youth league will never earn a decent living in football.  Let's hope both that Tomori is an exception and remains with Canada. 

[SCF08]

18 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Another honest question I think we need to ask is, are young players like Tomori, etc, actually better than some of the vets who seem to be automatic call-ups?

Lots of people were questioning James last game but he did very well.

Players like Ricketts, Ledgerwood, Straith, De Jong, even DeGuzman get a lot of caps, seemingly just for being the incumbent.

How much worse could a player like Tomori be? Honest question..

That's a very good point and one I've been making in the Ballou Tabla topic as well.

People need to look past age. It's all about quality and future potential is extremely important as well when you're a nation with very little quality choice. 

Both Tomori and Tabla are already (in my eyes) superior to a lot of CMNT regulars in the squad. In terms of potential the difference in quality will be huge between them and their competitors in future squads.

There is no valid reason not to try and call these guys up and secure them for the future. They both have the quality and ignoring them now would be very damaging for the future (and present if you also believe that they're good enough now). 

Edited April 20, 2016 by SCF08

[Bison44]

I dont think calling the youngsters needs to interfere with qualifying.  Leave Bekker and Osorio at home, call Tomori and Bustos.  Chances are none of them will play, but at least they might be a bit more prepared next time the call comes.  Look at James, he did a nice job for us, but I never thought he would see the pitch.  He was in 2-3 camps before he actually saw the field.  He was a bit more prepared to make his debut.  Call a couple youngsters for this upcoming friendlies and the next round, It will pay off if we can reach the HEX.