WCQ Canada-Mexico 25 March Postgame

[rightback]

The overwhelming consensus seems to be "poor Henry's being played out of position, he's a centre back not a right back". Could someone explain that to me? I'm guessing it's because he doesn't have the offensive abilities, but to me, his defensive abilities aren't that good that I'd want him in the centre either. In a game where I thought the team in general couldn't cope mentally with the class of opposition I wouldn't write off Henry just on this performance, but I keep hoping he'll improve and it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

[SthMelbRed]

1 minute ago, rightback said:

The overwhelming consensus seems to be "poor Henry's being played out of position, he's a centre back not a right back". Could someone explain that to me? I'm guessing it's because he doesn't have the offensive abilities, but to me, his defensive abilities aren't that good that I'd want him in the centre either. In a game where I thought the team in general couldn't cope mentally with the class of opposition I wouldn't write off Henry just on this performance, but I keep hoping he'll improve and it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

As a professional footballer, Henry should be embarrassed by every aspect of his display last night. He was brutal and being played out of position had nowt to do with it.

[1996]

Even at CB at this point I would not play Henry, I've watched him enough including all his time with TFC and he still is the same Henry sorry, the guy has not improved and is a liability. Moreover, people thinking somehow this team has improved since Floro took over , I don't see it so far, his player selection last night was a joke exspecially at the back I'm sorry.

[aloyol]

Some random thoughts about the game:

If Floro was a former MNT player, we would be explaining JDG starting with the "Old Boys Network" reference. He is done, too slow to play against a team like Mexico. He couldn,t cover the middle defensively.

Milan made some excellent saves but I'm worried with his distribution some times. That goes for the back 4 as well. Short passes under a lot of pressure 30 m away from our goal isn't a really good idea against the top team in Concacaf.

Larin, very naive, not working hard, poor movement off the ball. Floro needs to challenge him. Did you guys catch early on in the second half when Arfield went forward and ask Cyle to cover on the right side and Larin kind didn't understand or didn't want to. That's soccer 101 right there and Mexico went there to start the attack....Very disappointed with him.

Henry, I'm not expecting too much from a guy playing out of position, especially offensively but he must do a little bit better. That being said, he's clearly uncomfortable playing at RB. Ouiemette or Nik L. would've been better IMO.

I can't understand how one of Vittoria or Edgar didn't start this game at CB instead of Straith. Adam isn't a bad player but we have better options.

 

[Floortom]

JDG is certainly done. Huge respect for the guy for all his accomplishments but there's no rationale to start him anymore. We really need one of Kianz, Osorio, or God willing Becker to take the spot from him for our last two matches of qualifying.

[aloyol]

Also, I feel like we opened up the play too much in that first half. Honestly, as impopular as this might be here, I think our tactics should've been dictated by the result in the game in El Salvador. Don't commit in the first half and try to frustrate the Mexicans. Than, in the second half try to play for the result that you want.

Knowing we only needed a tie at halftime, a 0-0 first half result would've been great. But a 0-2 we were facing an almost impossible task.

I know some people here think Floro is a defensive coach but I thought early on we committed too much and try to many passes in dangerous area that finally cost us.

[Addona]

Here are some belated thoughts after a night of sleep:

1. The Henry at RB experiment should be over, but probably isn't.  What I don't get is why we don't try Edgar at RB since he seemed to do reasonably well their last cycle.  We could then use Jako and Henry/Vitoria/Straith at CB.

2. The quality difference between Arfield and Ricketts is astounding.  This craziness of "we have to start Ricketts because he's the incumbent, and then sub in Arfield is really dumb!".

3.  I LOVE JDG, but it's time for him to step aside.  MAD respect for him though, now and always.

4.  Hutch was not as good as I would've hoped / thought.  Same for Larin and Hoilett, but they are still all head and shoulders above our other options.  Interestingly, with all of our new additions, it's our back line that is much more suspect than our front 6 ... I can't believe I just typed that!

5.  PLEASE GOD, DO NOT START ARFIELD AND HOILETT IN MEXICO.  They are both on yellows and I can see them each getting a meaningless one in a 4-0 loss, thereby completely fucking us over.

6.  Borjan is the real deal.  This notion of whether Stama should start is also crazy.  Borjan is the clear # 1, and will be for some time.

7.  I agree with aloyol that we didn't park the bus too much ... in fact, I think we didn't park it enough!  The game was way too open from Canada's perspective ... no way we want to play vs. Mexico that way, even at home.  We created some chances, which is nice (but couldn't finish, as usual), but it also meant that Mexico was going to get tons of chances.  And they aren't going to miss all of them.

Although I less optimistic about qualifying for the HEX, I am still generally happy with the direction of the program.  It's a little bit of bad timing ... in 1-2 years, we could be a real threat but, unfortunately, WCQ is going on right now.

[KMB]

I actually thought we started well.  We took the game to them, had some chances but couldn't finish.  As someone previously mentioned, if we could have finished one of those chances and taken the lead the game could have gone differently.  But as the game went on the Mexican's just showed their class and outplayed us.  simple as that.  I'm sure we were trying to close up shop but the Mexicans were just to good, and opened us up with ease.  I was quite surprised we got as many chances as we did, our players just can't finish, but at least we are creating chances.  We are still second, the hex is still in sight and ours to lose at the moment.  We will see how Tuesday's games go, but I am still optimistic.  Another ES/Hon tie would be amazing.  I don't know why people think just because we got a couple of decent championship quality players to join the program that all of a sudden we are supposed to be world class now.  We are no better now then in the last few years, but if we keep improving, our young players keep getting better, I think we may have some hope for the future, but I'm still not giving up on the present until we are mathematically eliminated

[king1010]

Arfield didnt start because of a back injury. Pretty sure he reaggrivated it. 

And i agree. Dont play arfield or hoilett in mexico. As another poster said. Last thing we need is a 4-0 loss with both picking up yellows missing the biggest game of the group in honduras. 

[Yohan]

9 hours ago, Vince193 said:

Larin and Hoilett were shocking. I feel like Larin is a bit complacent because he has no competition for the spot. (shame Cavallini doesn't want to commit)

Our back four sucks. Plain and simple. No club minutes in 2016, as Straith and De Jong's seasons have not started yet and Jakovic is riding the bench. Henry also only plays U21 games as a CB. Don't get the RB thing at all.

8 hours ago, Vince193 said:

Fraser Aird deserves a shot at RB. He is actually playing it for Vancouver and is just as, if not faster than Henry. Also, Osorio deserves to play.

1. I think Larin is still overawed by putting on the Canada shirt and feels more pressure playing for country than Orlando. I hope he can get past the mental block to score goals for Canada.

2. This. All 4 defenders were NOT match fit. They were going to be in a tough spot against mid season Mexican attackers. 

All of Mexican players were match fit. Most of Canadian players were either not match fit or season just started. It's no excuse for such a terrible performance, but match fitness is important.

3. Aird would have been even more cut to pieces by Mexico considering he's poor defensively. Might just crush him getting torn up by Mexico for this game. 

Our best RB is... David Edgar. That's just how poor Canadian depth at defence is. But at least we know Doneil Henry is not the answer at RB. And if Floro starts Henry again at RB... My head will explode.

[Floortom]

8 minutes ago, Yohan said:

1. I think Larin is still overawed by putting on the Canada shirt and feels more pressure playing for country than Orlando. I hope he can get past the mental block to score goals for Canada.

2. This. All 4 defenders were NOT match fit. They were going to be in a tough spot against mid season Mexican attackers. 

All of Mexican players were match fit. Most of Canadian players were either not match fit or season just started. It's no excuse for such a terrible performance, but match fitness is important.

3. Aird would have been even more cut to pieces by Mexico considering he's poor defensively. Might just crush him getting torn up by Mexico for this game. 

Our best RB is... David Edgar. That's just how poor Canadian depth at defence is. But at least we know Doneil Henry is not the answer at RB. And if Floro starts Henry again at RB... My head will explode.

Yes, Aird at RB versus Mexico would have been truly LOL-worthy. Maybe in a couple of years he'll be ready for that but he's nowhere close now.

sad thing is we have no talent in the pipeline at RB /LB. Adekugbe is ok I guess. Maybe Tomori develops AND commits ros internationally (fat chance I know.)

I think we may very well start a frontline of Haber, Ricketts and Akindele on Tuesday which will be ugly to behold

[youllneverwalkalone]

We were running late pre-game, so we waited at the corner of Robson & Cambie to join the march to the match. There was wave after wave of Mexican supporters walking past us, and I have to admit all the feelings of 2006 qualifying were coming back to me: being outnumbered in our home city and not feeling like a "proper" home match. Then I look up Robson and coming over the hill is a cloud of red smoke. And cloud got bigger and bigger, and louder and louder, and when the Voyageurs flag cut through the smoke I could see that that even the passers by and the straggling Mexican fans understood that our side had arrived and that we are a formidable force. Joining that march with all the many Voyageurs from around the country as we parted the sea of Mexican fans in the Terry Fox plaza has to be the personal highlight of 12+ years with this group. Amazing experience. Thank you all.

[shortofbrillant]

Hopefully we play some hoofball down in Mexico.

 

We just don't have the skill to play out of the back against Mexico. Last night when the ball was played to the Midfield it rarely transitioned forward. Just back again creating chances for Mexico to jump the predictable passing lanes. 

[Addona]

21 minutes ago, Yohan said:

2. All 4 defenders were NOT match fit.

This is why my mind was blown that Edgar wasn't starting ... just bizarre.

[baulderdash77]

I don't think we have a choice but to start Henry at RB.  We don't really have a RB athletic enough to match up with the Mexican attackers; but Edgar and Ledgerwood aren't the answers.

After watching Arfield at RW, I'm pretty convinced he should be the starter over Ricketts.  He's more dangerous in possession.  That being said, Ricketts gave them some problems early in the game and he is very valuable as a late game sub against tired defenders.  I think that should be his role next game.

I like how we came out storming to try and get a quick goal but Mexico waited us out, got our measure and then took it to us.  In Mexico they will be going hard right from the start and I expect a much more defensive posture next game.

The other thing I noticed and we were talking about during the game is that JDG is looking slower now than he did even a year or 2 years ago.  In the 2nd half he was visibly slower.  I know he's our captain and emotional leader but I wonder when his time is going to be up for the national team.  I think we looked better with Piette in there.

Finally we really have to talk about the CB pairing.  Straith was outclassed and I don't understand why he's starting over Edgar who is clearly our best CB.  I think Vitoria is also an upgrade over Straith.  I know that Floro has given Straith more minutes than any other player but it looks more like he's playing favorites than playing his best.

 

[baulderdash77]

6 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

We were running late pre-game, so we waited at the corner of Robson & Cambie to join the march to the match. There was wave after wave of Mexican supporters walking past us, and I have to admit all the feelings of 2006 qualifying were coming back to me: being outnumbered in our home city and not feeling like a "proper" home match. Then I look up Robson and coming over the hill is a cloud of red smoke. And cloud got bigger and bigger, and louder and louder, and when the Voyageurs flag cut through the smoke I could see that that even the passers by and the straggling Mexican fans understood that our side had arrived and that we are a formidable force. Joining that march with all the many Voyageurs from around the country as we parted the sea of Mexican fans in the Terry Fox plaza has to be the personal highlight of 12+ years with this group. Amazing experience. Thank you all.

On the television the crowd looked great.  This was Canada soccer support at its finest with almost 55,000 fans in the stands (and over 75% of them Canadian) with viewers across Canada tuning in.  

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

I know that Floro has given Straith more minutes than any other player but it looks more like he's playing favorites than playing his best.

 

 

[Yohan]

6 minutes ago, Addona said:

This is why my mind was blown that Edgar wasn't starting ... just bizarre.

Floro is one of most risk adverse, conservative manager I've seen. He'll stick with whatever worked for him in the past if he can. 

[gkhs]

I do agree with those who are saying a result in this match should never have been expected and that its our results in the non-Mexico matches that will be telling.

But, to me, the real kick in the teeth from this round, is that we (Canada, Honduras and El Salvador together, with our collective crappiness) will have allowed Mexico to fully secure qualification after this round.

They will not need to call a decent squad in September - B-squad for sure, very possibly no Euro-based players, at all.

They will not need to schedule that final Honduras match for Azteca - they can land it in some B-venue, as they often have done for meaningless matches.

We will be fully reliant on them to skin El Salvador and Honduras, and they will have zero practical reason to come through. (Though, obviously some pride/rivalry reasons)

Even if they were only 99.999% certain, they would need to bring in a full squad and schedule match 6 for Azteca.

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, aloyol said:

I can't understand how one of Vittoria or Edgar didn't start this game at CB instead of Straith. Adam isn't a bad player but we have better options.

I won't be able to see this match until next weekend but I was surprised to see Edgar not in one of the CB spots in pkace of Straith but judging from the few highlights I did see, Jakovic didn't seem very good, either.

Ouimette over Henry for this game?  I could see the argument.  But Ledgerwood?  No, agree to disagree on that one.

[baulderdash77]

2 minutes ago, gkhs said:

I do agree with those who are saying a result in this match should never have been expected and that its our results in the non-Mexico matches that will be telling.

But, to me, the real kick in the teeth from this round, is that we (Canada, Honduras and El Salvador together, with our collective crappiness) will have allowed Mexico to fully secure qualification after this round.

They will not need to call a decent squad in September - B-squad for sure, very possibly no Euro-based players, at all.

They will not need to schedule that final Honduras match for Azteca - they can land it in some B-venue, as they often have done for meaningless matches.

We will be fully reliant on them to skin El Salvador and Honduras, and they will have zero practical reason to come through. (Though, obviously some pride/rivalry reasons)

Even if they were only 99.999% certain, they would need to bring in a full squad and schedule match 6 for Azteca.

Mexico isn't going to roll over for Honduras.  They will want to give Canada every opportunity to advance and knock Honduras out in this stage.  From their perspective it will take away one of the risks to them advancing away and I daresay that they don't consider us a risk.

Last cycle Honduras beat Mexico at Azteca in the Hex and pushed them to the brink of not making the World Cup.  They are not going to be giving them any quarter this time around.

[king1010]

6 minutes ago, gkhs said:

I do agree with those who are saying a result in this match should never have been expected and that its our results in the non-Mexico matches that will be telling.

But, to me, the real kick in the teeth from this round, is that we (Canada, Honduras and El Salvador together, with our collective crappiness) will have allowed Mexico to fully secure qualification after this round.

They will not need to call a decent squad in September - B-squad for sure, very possibly no Euro-based players, at all.

They will not need to schedule that final Honduras match for Azteca - they can land it in some B-venue, as they often have done for meaningless matches.

We will be fully reliant on them to skin El Salvador and Honduras, and they will have zero practical reason to come through. (Though, obviously some pride/rivalry reasons)

Even if they were only 99.999% certain, they would need to bring in a full squad and schedule match 6 for Azteca.

Thats not the way mexico works. 

Their fans and their media always expect a victory. Heads will roll if they lose at home at azteca. 

[mpg_29]

3 minutes ago, gkhs said:

I do agree with those who are saying a result in this match should never have been expected and that its our results in the non-Mexico matches that will be telling.

But, to me, the real kick in the teeth from this round, is that we (Canada, Honduras and El Salvador together, with our collective crappiness) will have allowed Mexico to fully secure qualification after this round.

They will not need to call a decent squad in September - B-squad for sure, very possibly no Euro-based players, at all.

They will not need to schedule that final Honduras match for Azteca - they can land it in some B-venue, as they often have done for meaningless matches.

We will be fully reliant on them to skin El Salvador and Honduras, and they will have zero practical reason to come through. (Though, obviously some pride/rivalry reasons)

Even if they were only 99.999% certain, they would need to bring in a full squad and schedule match 6 for Azteca.

Good point that people have been overlooking.  I'm assuming Mexico will win those last games against Honduras and El Salvador but if they manage to clinch on Tuesday those games could have different outcomes.  Which would be very bad for Canada.

[king1010]

Guys. Mexico doesnt tank. Let alone at home in front of their fans and media. 

Plus theyd rather play us in the hex than honduras. 

[gkhs]

7 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

I don't think we have a choice but to start Henry at RB.  We don't really have a RB athletic enough to match up with the Mexican attackers; but Edgar and Ledgerwood aren't the answers.

I think we need to acknowledge (while not trying to give Floro any credit) that we don't have a single good option at RB. Not one.

Ledgerwood, Ouimette and Edgar would never have made the tactical mistake of not closing out an attacker, but they would have had pace trouble all night. And who knows what adventures Aird would have gotten into. There simply is no right answer.

What I find stunning is the ability of decent teams to exploit weaknesses like this...its pretty incredible to watch (though brutally painful).

We've had, in my opinion, the same most glaring weakness three cycles in a row. Since Stalteri fell off a cliff in 2008, we have been brutal at RB. And Honduras and Mexico, and then Honduras and Panama, and now Mexico again, have all been good enough to torch us by exploiting it. We can skate past against an El Salvador, but we pay pretty much 100% of the time against better competition.