Crowdfund or Supporters Trust club in L1O?

[DigzTFC]

I like the idea conceptually but I would have a hard time seeing a proposal like this pass due diligence in L10.

Having a complete development  structure is challenging and requires a lot of man power.  That means having an amateur high performance structure down u-10 with a OPDL component paid by the amateur fees.  Some clubs have amalgamated to join L10 to meet the financial and resource requirements.  I'm sure there will be more in the future.

Dino runs a club called Milltown FC.  It started with the same initiative.  A bunch of Vs got together and started a club in the CSL (prior to the known shenanigans).  You would have to ask Dino about his experience. The only reason that he himself, the President of Milltown and Commissioner of League One Ontario, has not joined L10 is due to resources specifically financial.  If a proposal like this were to happen you would need a Dino Rossi heading an established club, with the necessary development structure, sponsored by V's and corporate partners, and hiring Canadian coaching talent to setup the development pyramid.  Whether Dino would be up for that I have no idea. I believe that this was the initial concept.  Rafael Carbajal was head coach for a while and they've just started to produce a few players.

An idea that really excited me is the annual membership model backing Sigma FC in the Canadian Premier League.  Pumping the tires of Milltown would probably be the most affordable option but it would be purely financial.  Milltown is a bit of drive from Toronto and would be difficult to attract ticket revenue.

I would like to ask the group a question:

If you were to sponsor a team which expectation would you have?

- The club produces players that are able to reach the junior CMNT and pro-ranks?

- The club produces trophies

If its the former there is a danger.  It takes years to produce players and get the system right.  Would everyone stay patient enough with their dollars to support a club with no guaranteed results or would it be easier to sponsor en established producer of Canadian talent?

[Jason]

34 minutes ago, DigzTFC said:

I like the idea conceptually but I would have a hard time seeing a proposal like this pass due diligence in L10.

Having a complete development  structure is challenging and requires a lot of man power.  That means having an amateur high performance structure down u-10 with a OPDL component paid by the amateur fees.  Some clubs have amalgamated to join L10 to meet the financial and resource requirements.  I'm sure there will be more in the future.

Dino runs a club called Milltown FC.  It started with the same initiative.  A bunch of Vs got together and started a club in the CSL (prior to the known shenanigans).  You would have to ask Dino about his experience. The only reason that he himself, the President of Milltown and Commissioner of League One Ontario, has not joined L10 is due to resources specifically financial.  If a proposal like this were to happen you would need a Dino Rossi heading an established club, with the necessary development structure, sponsored by V's and corporate partners, and hiring Canadian coaching talent to setup the development pyramid.  Whether Dino would be up for that I have no idea. I believe that this was the initial concept.  Rafael Carbajal was head coach for a while and they've just started to produce a few players.

An idea that really excited me is the annual membership model backing Sigma FC in the Canadian Premier League.  Pumping the tires of Milltown would probably be the most affordable option but it would be purely financial.  Milltown is a bit of drive from Toronto and would be difficult to attract ticket revenue.

I would like to ask the group a question:

If you were to sponsor a team which expectation would you have?

- The club produces players that are able to reach the junior CMNT and pro-ranks?

- The club produces trophies

If its the former there is a danger.  It takes years to produce players and get the system right.  Would everyone stay patient enough with their dollars to support a club with no guaranteed results or would it be easier to sponsor en established producer of Canadian talent?

Thanks for the insight.  I suspect it would not be easy to enter L1O just because of how they have set it up to be the top level for existing clubs with infrastructure.  But I didn't see a better option in Canada.  Most of the supporter owned clubs in the States have been in NPSL, which is an ideal environment to set it up.  Low league fees, regional play with lower travel expenses, and no payment to players (keeps expenses low and can retain NCAA status) would work well.  But I presume NPSL wouldn't work here - they have not put a team in Canada before, and I doubt the CSA and the province would allow it as they are not allowing PDL next year.  That does not really leave any practical options.  It's not much different in the west.  In Calgary, it's pretty much PDL or nothing for example.

As far as what I'd want to see from a team, I'd like to see it be a collection of mostly U23 players that play in CIS and NCAA in the fall, mixed in with some players who are looking to revive their career and give it one last try before giving up.  This would be players who maybe were in a pro academy like TFC or even in Europe, but never ended up signing a pro deal or signed a pro deal but they never really made it and were released in a year or so (Welshman, Cordon for example).  The goal would be to win first and give these guys a chance to keep developing and keep the dream alive.  I don't think we would want to be developing players from scratch.  Other clubs are doing that already.

Jason

[DigzTFC]

How about these for an idea:

The V's sponsor a L10 All-star team to compete with some friendlies in Europe maybe a few guys get picked up.

The V's set up a tournament like the Dallas Cup in Canada.

Cheers,

Adam

[Tuscan]

If that tournament could be held in Saskatoon I'm 100% in ?

[Jason]

2 hours ago, DigzTFC said:

How about these for an idea:

The V's sponsor a L10 All-star team to compete with some friendlies in Europe maybe a few guys get picked up.

The V's set up a tournament like the Dallas Cup in Canada.

Cheers,

Adam

Setting up a Dallas Cup like tournament would be tough to organize I think.  I like the idea of the all-star team, but that would be unsustainable.  Costs to fly the players out, feed and house them, and what would be the possible return to offset our expenses?  Even if the player paid for part of the trip there is no ability to offset expenses.  Can't imagine you could get a corporate sponsor. Getting a share of transfer and/or training fees?  Very unlikely.  

A club makes sense in that it could create revenue to offset expenses and be self-sustaining.   And it's something we could follow over the longer term.  I think it would be a much tougher sell to convince Voyageurs to donate to a Euro trip where we couldn't watch the matches and see what our contributions result in.

Jason

 

[DigzTFC]

Ask Dino if he has a business plan template.  Go from there.

[Gopherbashi]

9 hours ago, DigzTFC said:

How about these for an idea:

The V's sponsor a L10 All-star team to compete with some friendlies in Europe maybe a few guys get picked up.

The V's set up a tournament like the Dallas Cup in Canada.

Cheers,

Adam

Dino mentioned a few days ago on twitter that they're looking at some kind of all-star team/game for this year.

[VPjr]

Hello All....it's been a LOOONG time since I last posted on the forum.  Very interesting topic.  Sorry it took so long to find the time to post a reply.  I've been travelling.

A group of V's getting together to establish a club to enter L1 probably wouldn't suffice for securing a license to join L1.  Our requirements, especially around having an established youth development program, would be a hindrance to that plan.  

That said, you could conceivably establish a trust that looks to take an equity stake in an existing license holder (or a prospective one) or becomes a benefactor / sponsor for an existing license holder.

In response to some of the comments on this thread:

1. yes, most teams charge a fee at the gate (between $5 to $10 for adults).  A handful have chosen not to at this point.  

2.  we do intend to announce details about All Star Games for men and women before we kick off the season in 6 weeks.  We are working diligently on this initiative.

let me know if you have any further questions.

[Pqhbv]

How long will the youth development be a requirement for? 

When the CSL folds (I've already heard rumblings that Toronto Croatia will not field a team this season) there will be gaps in a few place where new groups would be interested in starting up. 

 

[Jason]

5 hours ago, VPjr said:

Hello All....it's been a LOOONG time since I last posted on the forum.  Very interesting topic.  Sorry it took so long to find the time to post a reply.  I've been travelling.

A group of V's getting together to establish a club to enter L1 probably wouldn't suffice for securing a license to join L1.  Our requirements, especially around having an established youth development program, would be a hindrance to that plan.  

That said, you could conceivably establish a trust that looks to take an equity stake in an existing license holder (or a prospective one) or becomes a benefactor / sponsor for an existing license holder.

In response to some of the comments on this thread:

1. yes, most teams charge a fee at the gate (between $5 to $10 for adults).  A handful have chosen not to at this point.  

2.  we do intend to announce details about All Star Games for men and women before we kick off the season in 6 weeks.  We are working diligently on this initiative.

let me know if you have any further questions.

Thanks for the response.  I thought it probably wouldn't fit into the L1O model but I like the idea of crowdfunding/supporters trust in general.  Can you suggest a Canadian league where this could actually work?  Most of these types of initiatives in the States have started in NPSL.  I presume that league wouldn't be an option because of CSA and the provinces, and even NPSL might not want to deal with border crossings either.

In theory, I could see it being possible out west (I'm in Calgary) with the PDL but the operating costs are a lot more.  I know Calgary Foothills PDL had a budget of at least $200K last year, which is a lot more than a L1O or NPSL club.  It would be a lot harder to raise the kind of $ to make it work.  

Jason

[hamiltonfan]

Jason - seems like an amateur club would be the only viable option.

Having said that, let revisit the objective of funding a club. to promote player development? Run a team as a community, and try to grow it into a full club over time? Promote local soccer?

My two cents - 

1) establish a trust with a clear objective. 
2 ) Invest in a (developmental) club (League1, USL Pro, PDL, or top amateur clubs) which matches objectives
3) Investment must be large enough to buy us a seat or two on the club's board

Could be fun.

[Jason]

10 hours ago, hamiltonfan said:

Jason - seems like an amateur club would be the only viable option.

Having said that, let revisit the objective of funding a club. to promote player development? Run a team as a community, and try to grow it into a full club over time? Promote local soccer?

My two cents - 

1) establish a trust with a clear objective. 
2 ) Invest in a (developmental) club (League1, USL Pro, PDL, or top amateur clubs) which matches objectives
3) Investment must be large enough to buy us a seat or two on the club's board

Could be fun.

Personally, I think the goal would be to support local soccer and give fans a chance to have a stake in a team.  I'd say no to focusing on youth player development.  There are a lot of clubs doing this right now, and the measurement of success isn't as easy - it takes a long time.  I'd prefer the team's niche be as a place where younger players (18-23) get another chance to prove themselves.  I would want to see some results, but it would have to be done primarily with younger Canadians.  I wouldn't want a team of grizzled vets including a bunch of non-Canadians.  

I know development sounds noble, but look at other supporter run clubs that have been a success.  Detroit City, SFCFC, Chattanooga are not really focusing on building youth teams at this point.  Also, I know how miserable it is to watch a young team lose all the team.  I followed the 2002 Calgary Storm team in the A-League which had Lars Hirschfeld in goal, a 16 year hold Nik Ledgerwood at right back, and three or four players in the Canadian youth player pool.  I think they won 4 games all year.  It was hard to watch even for a die hard.  And it was impossible to convince fans to show up and watch these young players lose, learn, and develop.  

Money is an issue.  USL Pro is way too rich.  You could have a shot at PDL but you would need to do it in an area where the CSA might approve it (not Ontario or Quebec for sure), and it would take double the amount to launch compared to other fan led attempts in the States.  You'd need $200K for sure to get it going.

Jason

 

[Blue and White Army]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

Detroit City, SFCFC, Chattanooga are not really focusing on building youth teams at this point.

Of those three clubs, only San Francisco is supporter-owned.

[Levi Oakey]

Might not make sense,

But what if we as voyageurs attempted to sponsor our own cup or the L1O/PQSL cup? I am sure @VPjr is always looking for sponsors... Don't know the amount we would need.

Or a trust would be interesting, something to help out teams that feel they are losing the financial capital to surviving in L1O, or to help teams move to L1O would be cool.

[Pqhbv]

L10 has the intra provincial cup with no sponsor atm. They also have an unsponsored league cup... Maybe one of those two cups could be looked at for something like what you guys are talking about.

Maybe one day winning the voyageurs sponsored league cup in a provincial D3 could get you a birth in the voyageurs cup.

I recall mention/talk of the intra-provincial possibly doing that in the future as all. Granted those ideas have been floated on forums and not by the CSA or anything.

[Unnamed Trialist]

17 hours ago, Pqhbv said:

L10 has the intra provincial cup with no sponsor atm. They also have an unsponsored league cup... Maybe one of those two cups could be looked at for something like what you guys are talking about.

Maybe one day winning the voyageurs sponsored league cup in a provincial D3 could get you a birth in the voyageurs cup.

I recall mention/talk of the intra-provincial possibly doing that in the future as all. Granted those ideas have been floated on forums and not by the CSA or anything.

Now those are two good proposals, I like them better. As we have seen with the V-Cup, its merit as our initiative is that it has not been tied to any given club but to Canadian football in general.

And I agree that restricted access, limited to fully pro teams, is something that needs to be dealt with. 

Perhaps we would be talking about Ontario Vs specifically suppporting that type of Cup for L10, as I would think that Voyageurs in different regions would want to give similar support to D3 equivalent Cups or leagues in their own provinces. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

This is kind of off topic, but it's time sensitive and I didn't know where else to post it.  

Is anyone interested in crowdfunding some facebook advertising?  I've done it before and we could do it around the WCQ and see if we can't gain some followers of people jacked up from the game.  You can target people searching Canada mexico and things like that.  and it's relatively cheap, especially if we crowdfund.

Anyways.  Think about it.  Time's tickin'

[VPjr]

On 19/03/2016 at 3:13 PM, Pqhbv said:

How long will the youth development be a requirement for? 

When the CSL folds (I've already heard rumblings that Toronto Croatia will not field a team this season) there will be gaps in a few place where new groups would be interested in starting up. 

 

This requirement we never disappear.... It is fundamental to what this league is all about.  

[VPjr]

On 22/03/2016 at 9:17 PM, Pqhbv said:

L10 has the intra provincial cup with no sponsor atm. They also have an unsponsored league cup... Maybe one of those two cups could be looked at for something like what you guys are talking about.

Maybe one day winning the voyageurs sponsored league cup in a provincial D3 could get you a birth in the voyageurs cup.

I recall mention/talk of the intra-provincial possibly doing that in the future as all. Granted those ideas have been floated on forums and not by the CSA or anything.

We would be open to having those types of conversations...

 

Partnering with the Inter-Provincial Cup competition would probably make the most sense, in my opinion.