Crowdfund or Supporters Trust club in L1O?

[Jason]

I've seen a few of these efforts in the States, and I was thinking why can't Canadian fans put together a supporters run club?  Most of the U.S. fan groups have used NPSL, but why not L1O?  They seem to be the only logical option in Canada.  I would imagine the operating costs are no higher than NPSL.  Base the team in the GTA and there would be minimal travel.  

I can see 3 reasons to get this going: 1) Give a chance to more young Canadian players to develop, 2) Support L1O, which is a great initiative, and 3) Give Voyageurs a rooting interest in L1O.  While I love what the league is doing, none of the teams mean anything to me.  Now I live a couple of time zones away, so it won't likely influence how many matches I go to but it would affect my general interest level (watching games online, buying gear).  But I get the impression that GTA Voyageurs haven't exactly been showing up to matches in droves either.  Maybe this would be a way to coalesce their support and convince them to attend.

Living in Calgary, I would not be able to do that much myself on the project, but I would be willing to do whatever I could from distance to help get it off the ground.   I thought I'd throw it out there as an idea to see if it would make sense, and if anyone would be sufficiently inspired to want to look into it further.

Jason

[Rheo]

I've never been to a game down here in Windsor but I'm thinking about checking out a few this year.  Especially when Sigma and TFC come down.  It's a bit of a trek out there for me but I'm curious to see some games and what the support level is locally.

[shermanator]

I would be intrigued at the prospect of getting something like this up and running, although I would be more interested in getting a local club into a Prairie High Performance league. Any idea of what the startup costs would be?

[ted]

The problem is that you need a large number of fans to commit a large amount of money AND time and the legal structure is not as developed as in the UK. They can use something called an Industrial and Provident Society which, as far as I can tell, is a type of shareholding corporation that does not have to earn a return for shareholders. Not the same as a not-for profit society as established in our provinces.

[Jason]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

I would be intrigued at the prospect of getting something like this up and running, although I would be more interested in getting a local club into a Prairie High Performance league. Any idea of what the startup costs would be?

I would be more interested in doing something closer to home, but I don't see any really obvious lower cost options.  A PDL club would cost a lot more to run than L1O from what I can see.  And the Prairie league is still not here.

Jason

[Jason]

42 minutes ago, ted said:

The problem is that you need a large number of fans to commit a large amount of money AND time and the legal structure is not as developed as in the UK. They can use something called an Industrial and Provident Society which, as far as I can tell, is a type of shareholding corporation that does not have to earn a return for shareholders. Not the same as a not-for profit society as established in our provinces.

I agree - this was much more about suggesting an idea as opposed to having knowledge on how to do it.  I think it was SF City FC that raise a lot of $ to set up, and Detroit City just raised some serious $ to reno their stadium.  From what I briefly googled, L1O budgets are in the $100K range.  I know a PDL budget is at least $200K (at least it is in the west with the travel).

Jason

 

[ted]

I think you are right on target with the budgets. L1O should be possible but getting enough people to buy in will be a challenge.

[Blue and White Army]

I'd contribute to such a venture.

A few tips to anyone considering this:

• Don't use the MyFC/Ebbsfleet United model (internet-based fans voting on squad selection) or the Real Oviedo model (fans buying a permanent share in the club, which only results in a one-time injection of money). Instead, do what most member clubs around the world do: annual membership.
• Concentrate on building local fans, rather than appealing to soccer fans in other communities across Canada. If people can't follow the games, either by attending at the stadium or watching online, eventually they will realize that they don't have any significant connection to the club, and their involvement will lapse once the novelty factor wears off.
• Make sure that some people who play/coach/administer the game, not just supporters/spectators, are involved from the start. Connections matter, in terms of finding a good coach, players, etc.
• San Francisco City was a merger between a group of guys who wanted to start a fan-owned team, and an existing team that played at a decent level but wanted to get some support. It wasn't just a case of some would-be supporters hiring a manager and him conducting try-outs. The team essentially already existed. While that might seem less authentic, it saved them a lot of time and hassle.
• San Francisco City has a "minority investor group" that continues to expand. The club does not have equal membership for all members in the way that most fan-owned clubs in England do.
• Nashville City seems to have a wealthy, entrepreneur sugar-daddy, despite positioning themselves as being fan-owned. (I haven't investigated any further.)
• Minneapolis City is a new club currently in the process of launching.
• Consider starting at a level lower than L1O, and working your way up. Why not enter a side in a Toronto-based league that has never had spectators, and form a supporters' group? Low costs, novelty factor, and easy media attention. Have a long-term plan to move up leagues every few years.

And sorry if this is off topic... but why aren't there any supporters' groups of L1O clubs? Bunch of MLS glory hunters. 

[Tuscan]

Would it be possible to look into OPDL rather than L1O? Is OPDL any less expensive than running an L1O club? does Dino still check the forum from time to time and would he care to weigh in on this?

I'd definitely be interested in backing a project like this. I agree with Jason that it's a shame the Prairies don't have anything set up yet to do this, but If Dave Nutt w the SSA is able to get full approval this summer, I believe a league at the level of the OPDL will be launching next year. That could perhaps be a place for us Westerners to start while Eastern Vs could launch a club in OPDL or L1O.

Great topic, hard to believe someone hasn't thrown out a supporter owned club for a league like L1O before.

[Complete Homer]

You'd have $100 from me. My student budget wouldn't allow much more for a couple years 

[rob.notenboom]

10 hours ago, Tuscan said:

Would it be possible to look into OPDL rather than L1O? Is OPDL any less expensive than running an L1O club? does Dino still check the forum from time to time and would he care to weigh in on this?

Tweet him. 

[Saviola7]

10 hours ago, Tuscan said:

Would it be possible to look into OPDL rather than L1O? Is OPDL any less expensive than running an L1O club? does Dino still check the forum from time to time and would he care to weigh in on this?

I'd definitely be interested in backing a project like this. I agree with Jason that it's a shame the Prairies don't have anything set up yet to do this, but If Dave Nutt w the SSA is able to get full approval this summer, I believe a league at the level of the OPDL will be launching next year. That could perhaps be a place for us Westerners to start while Eastern Vs could launch a club in OPDL or L1O.

Great topic, hard to believe someone hasn't thrown out a supporter owned club for a league like L1O before.

I believe that under most circumstances, you'd have to have the backing of an existing club or consortium of existing clubs for OPDL. Maybe you could associate yourselves with a club though.

[Tuscan]

Let's gather info direct from sources to begin with. I've tweeted Dino and asked him to weigh in on the concept in this thread. 

[Tuscan]

On a related note to this concept, why don't all of us Voyageurs pool together $1000 to put the groups name as one of the 50 on Calgary Foothills' new kit sponsorship? Here is an opportunity to support Canadian developmental soccer by putting our money where our mouths are. http://calgaryfoothillssoccer.com/default.asp?id=50names&l=1

[Jason]

19 hours ago, Blue and White Army said:

I'd contribute to such a venture.

A few tips to anyone considering this:

• Don't use the MyFC/Ebbsfleet United model (internet-based fans voting on squad selection) or the Real Oviedo model (fans buying a permanent share in the club, which only results in a one-time injection of money). Instead, do what most member clubs around the world do: annual membership.
• Concentrate on building local fans, rather than appealing to soccer fans in other communities across Canada. If people can't follow the games, either by attending at the stadium or watching online, eventually they will realize that they don't have any significant connection to the club, and their involvement will lapse once the novelty factor wears off.
• Make sure that some people who play/coach/administer the game, not just supporters/spectators, are involved from the start. Connections matter, in terms of finding a good coach, players, etc.
• San Francisco City was a merger between a group of guys who wanted to start a fan-owned team, and an existing team that played at a decent level but wanted to get some support. It wasn't just a case of some would-be supporters hiring a manager and him conducting try-outs. The team essentially already existed. While that might seem less authentic, it saved them a lot of time and hassle.
• San Francisco City has a "minority investor group" that continues to expand. The club does not have equal membership for all members in the way that most fan-owned clubs in England do.
• Nashville City seems to have a wealthy, entrepreneur sugar-daddy, despite positioning themselves as being fan-owned. (I haven't investigated any further.)
• Minneapolis City is a new club currently in the process of launching.
• Consider starting at a level lower than L1O, and working your way up. Why not enter a side in a Toronto-based league that has never had spectators, and form a supporters' group? Low costs, novelty factor, and easy media attention. Have a long-term plan to move up leagues every few years.

And sorry if this is off topic... but why aren't there any supporters' groups of L1O clubs? Bunch of MLS glory hunters. 

Thanks for all of the info.  I just look at more and more teams being formed in the USA, and thinking why not in Canada too?

Looking through some L1O docs, it does seem that there is an expectation of having youth teams or having a relationship with a club with youth teams.  I would think there is some club in the GTA that would be interested in having someone else create a senior team they are associated with.  However, the L1O club and youth club would have to have some separation re: staffs and branding.

I'm not against starting lower, but to me that makes it less appetizing when it comes to selling the concept.  And the whole lack of a club structure is probably more of a problem at a lower level.

I agree with your comments about no supporters groups for L1O clubs.  But I think it's as simple as there is no connection to these clubs for even the hardcore soccer fan.  Look at me as a Calgary example - I live 4 blocks from one of the primary AMSL venues, but I have never been to a game because I have no connection to any of these clubs.

Jason 

[Blue and White Army]

52 minutes ago, Jason said:

I agree with your comments about no supporters groups for L1O clubs.  But I think it's as simple as there is no connection to these clubs for even the hardcore soccer fan.  Look at me as a Calgary example - I live 4 blocks from one of the primary AMSL venues, but I have never been to a game because I have no connection to any of these clubs.

Not to the derail the topic of this thread, but what caused people in Toronto to suddenly support Toronto FC, despite having no connect to that club? And can any of those reasons translate down to L1O, PLSQ, AMSL, PCSL/VMSL, etc?

[Jason]

2 minutes ago, Blue and White Army said:

Not to the derail the topic of this thread, but what caused people in Toronto to suddenly support Toronto FC, despite having no connect to that club? And can any of those reasons translate down to L1O, PLSQ, AMSL, PCSL/VMSL, etc?

TFC attracted people because of it's major league status, interest in a new stadium, and generally savvy marketing approach by MLSE.  The fact that it was a level above the other leagues made it easier to attract support from diverse backgrounds and create a connection.  

Let's face it, L1O isn't an easy sell.  They aren't playing New York, Chicago, etc and there are almost no players you would ever recognize.  Even when TFC started, MLS had its share of guys who were names and played in World Cups, etc.

Jason

 

[shermanator]

2 hours ago, Tuscan said:

On a related note to this concept, why don't all of us Voyageurs pool together $1000 to put the groups name as one of the 50 on Calgary Foothills' new kit sponsorship? Here is an opportunity to support Canadian developmental soccer by putting our money where our mouths are. http://calgaryfoothillssoccer.com/default.asp?id=50names&l=1

I'd chip a few lira into this.

[Tuscan]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

Looking through some L1O docs, it does seem that there is an expectation of having youth teams or having a relationship with a club with youth teams.  I would think there is some club in the GTA that would be interested in having someone else create a senior team they are associated with.  However, the L1O club and youth club would have to have some separation re: staffs and branding.

I'm not against starting lower, but to me that makes it less appetizing when it comes to selling the concept.  And the whole lack of a club structure is probably more of a problem at a lower level.

This raises a very important question that goes along with having a club in L1O or even OPDL - if it would have to be connected with a youth club, won't that youth club have to meet the league's standards? This is why I think it'd be easier, if possible, to start an L1O club because the player-base would be easier to populate from players coming out of the OPDL. We really need Dino to weigh in on this.

[Unnamed Trialist]

22 hours ago, Blue and White Army said:

I'd contribute to such a venture.

A few tips to anyone considering this:

• Don't use the MyFC/Ebbsfleet United model (internet-based fans voting on squad selection) or the Real Oviedo model (fans buying a permanent share in the club, which only results in a one-time injection of money). Instead, do what most member clubs around the world do: annual membership.

Just want to say, being a member of such a club, that you can mix the models. You can ask for a start-up membership as well as use annual memberwhip. 

In certain times in history at Barça the club asked new members to commit more than a single season of membership fees to help some aspect of club improvement. For a Camp Nou expansion 30 years ago, instead of paying the regular yearly fee (at Barça you pay membership, flat rate, then your season tickets, varying), they asked if anyone would advance 5 years, with an overall discount.

If you want an egalitarian system, then you simply ask people to do this altruistically, though if you have money it makes sense. 

I think all the other suggestions are very good, like involving soccer adminstrators and coaches. 

What the L10 model of league and similar are lacking, and that all reasonable member-owned initiatives have, is a source of income in a stadium, owned or rented, with gate. Supporting a club by membership, with highly limited gate, is terribly unreasonable. Do they charge to watch L10?

[Jason]

37 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Just want to say, being a member of such a club, that you can mix the models. You can ask for a start-up membership as well as use annual memberwhip. 

In certain times in history at Barça the club asked new members to commit more than a single season of membership fees to help some aspect of club improvement. For a Camp Nou expansion 30 years ago, instead of paying the regular yearly fee (at Barça you pay membership, flat rate, then your season tickets, varying), they asked if anyone would advance 5 years, with an overall discount.

If you want an egalitarian system, then you simply ask people to do this altruistically, though if you have money it makes sense. 

I think all the other suggestions are very good, like involving soccer adminstrators and coaches. 

What the L10 model of league and similar are lacking, and that all reasonable member-owned initiatives have, is a source of income in a stadium, owned or rented, with gate. Supporting a club by membership, with highly limited gate, is terribly unreasonable. Do they charge to watch L10?

Yep, lots of possible ways to to do it.  

I don't know if L1O teams do charge, but I remember reading in the setup guidelines that you can charge admission.  I guess it would depend on where the team was based out of.  If it was Lamport or some other gated stadium it would be possible to accept payment.  I know Foothills PDL has an extremely basic ticket system in place for their games - consisting of 2 or 3 volunteers at one entrance collecting cash and/or mobile credit/debit (which sometimes actually worked).   I would think that would be somewhat sufficient.  Maybe a couple of people to sell merchandise, and also do food/drinks (this could be contracted out to another company possibly).

In my opinion you would have to try to get paying customers, even if it was mostly "members" who had season tickets as part of the member package, with a few random walk ins.  Also sell sponsorships and merchandise too - all the things clubs do.  I think the USA member owned clubs do all of these things.  No reason for a Canadian L1O team to be different.

Jason

[Jason]

I just wanted to add that I think something like this could bring a bit of energy to L1O.  Even though they are achieving many of their goals, I get the impression they have not created a lot of fan interest yet.  Even if the fan owned club drew 200-300 per match that would probably put them above most clubs.  If they could create a fun atmosphere it could build.  There are a lot of Voyageurs in the GTA, and I'm sure there would be interest from soccer hipsters too.  Wouldn't it be cool to have a bunch of Voyageurs show up to some of the matches as away supporters?  Road trips are pretty easy when they are within the city.  Might even encourage some other clubs to be a bit more aggressive in getting fans out.

Jason

[rob.notenboom]

8 hours ago, Tuscan said:

This raises a very important question that goes along with having a club in L1O or even OPDL - if it would have to be connected with a youth club, won't that youth club have to meet the league's standards? This is why I think it'd be easier, if possible, to start an L1O club because the player-base would be easier to populate from players coming out of the OPDL. We really need Dino to weigh in on this.

I'm pretty sure OPDL only allows existing clubs in Ontario to enter the league, so I'm afraid that is a non-starter.

[rob.notenboom]

11 hours ago, Tuscan said:

On a related note to this concept, why don't all of us Voyageurs pool together $1000 to put the groups name as one of the 50 on Calgary Foothills' new kit sponsorship? Here is an opportunity to support Canadian developmental soccer by putting our money where our mouths are. http://calgaryfoothillssoccer.com/default.asp?id=50names&l=1

Can we get 20 people at $50 each? I'm in. I'm afraid I don't have time to organize things though.

 

Now that I think about it though, it would be as simple as making a list and then collecting the money. So far the list would include:

Tuscan

Shermanator

rob.notenboom

[Tuscan]

Does this Foothills thing deserve it's own dedicated post? Would be easier to keep organized and bring people in from Twitter and Facebook. Also I think we should make it more like a kickstarter where people can contribute any amount they'd like, as long as we hit the $1000 goal by the 15th. That's the club's cutoff.